Better service needed rural routes such as the Bentham line this winter

[yorksrob]

moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/december-2020-timetable-change.206880/page-6#post-4833676

There stll doesn't appear to be a decent service on the Bentham line after December.

According to TfN, services should be at 89% of normal after December, so it's unacceptable for routes not to have a usable full day service.

 

[30907]

There stll doesn't appear to be a decent service on the Bentham line after December.

According to TfN, services should be at 89% of normal after December, so it's unacceptable for routes not to have a usable full day service.

There are two return trips missing - running the 1019 off Leeds rather than the 1218 would be an effective alteration.

 

[yorksrob]

There are two return trips missing - running the 1019 off Leeds rather than the 1218 would be an effective alteration.

That would be more useful for me personally, however given that the service is pretty sparse, they ought to restore all the current services - even if some are run as shuttles from Skipton for the timebeing.

 

[northernchris]

That would be more useful for me personally, however given that the service is pretty sparse, they ought to restore all the current services - even if some are run as shuttles from Skipton for the timebeing.

It is an odd decision to not restore full service on the line, the Carlisle line looks to be back to normal service from December. Given that Skipton - Lancaster is crewed solely by Skipton, and the Airedale and Wharfedale lines are as good as full service from December it can't save that many crew diagrams unless it's down to route knowledge lapsing

 

[yorksrob]

It is an odd decision to not restore full service on the line, the Carlisle line looks to be back to normal service from December. Given that Skipton - Lancaster is crewed solely by Skipton, and the Airedale and Wharfedale lines are as good as full service from December it can't save that many crew diagrams unless it's down to route knowledge lapsing

It's not just a case of a few missing trains. There are some very large gaps.

I think I'll have to write some letters !

 

[Llandudno]

There stll doesn't appear to be a decent service on the Bentham line after December.

According to TfN, services should be at 89% of normal after December, so it's unacceptable for routes not to have a usable full day service.

Isn’t 89% of the advertised timetable considered normal service for Northern?

 

[yorksrob]

Isn’t 89% of the advertised timetable considered normal service for Northern?

Touche !

 

[30907]

That would be more useful for me personally, however given that the service is pretty sparse, they ought to restore all the current services - even if some are run as shuttles from Skipton for the timebeing.

Given the frequency that operated for the 25 years prior to 2018, and the loadings of most trains in normal times since then, I can't see that as top priority.

 

[yorksrob]

Given the frequency that operated for the 25 years prior to 2018, and the loadings of most trains in normal times since then, I can't see that as top priority.

Well I can.

I know prior to 2018 there was a service from Leeds at around 10:19 because I used it, so any "observations" of people who probably never used the service anyway, have less weighting in my opinion.

Prior to 2018 we had a usable service. It wasn't perfect, but it was usable. I wonder if 30907 used that service.

 

[30907]

Well I can.

I know prior to 2018 there was a service from Leeds at around 10:19 because I used it, so any "observations" of people who probably never used the service anyway, have less weighting in my opinion.

Prior to 2018 we had a usable service. It wasn't perfect, but it was usable. I wonder if 30907 used that service.

Yes, from 1990 until 2008 when I left the area for a while.
From Leeds at 0819, 1019, 1419 (or was it 13xx?), 164x.
Hence my suggestion that a 1019 vice 1219 would meet the demand, if there are not yet the resources for the full 2018+ timetable.

Incidentally, I am not aware of "observations from people who probably never used the service" on this thread, though you may be a more frequent user than I.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, from 1990 until 2008 when I left the area for a while.
From Leeds at 0819, 1019, 1419 (or was it 13xx?), 164x.
Hence my suggestion that a 1019 vice 1219 would meet the demand, if there are not yet the resources for the full 2018+ timetable.

Incidentally, I am not aware of "observations from people who probably never used the service" on this thread, though you may be a more frequent user than I.

I am a frequent user and there has always been a service at around 10:19 for the ten years or so I've been using it.

 

[Eloise]

Well I can.

I know prior to 2018 there was a service from Leeds at around 10:19 because I used it, so any "observations" of people who probably never used the service anyway, have less weighting in my opinion.

Prior to 2018 we had a usable service. It wasn't perfect, but it was usable. I wonder if 30907 used that service.

How would you operate this service if there simply isn't the resource available? Given the pandemic I'd prefer to have a reduced but reliable service than a TOC try and be heroic and have them regularly cancel.

 

[yorksrob]

How would you operate this service if there simply isn't the resource available? Given the pandemic I'd prefer to have a reduced but reliable service than a TOC try and be heroic and have them regularly cancel.

And why isn't the resource available ? Lockdown proper ended months ago.

Northern rail is contracted to run a usable service between Skipton and Lancaster. What possible excuse do you have for a decent all day service between Skipton and Lancaster not to be run ?

 

[bramling]

And why isn't the resource available ? Lockdown proper ended months ago.

Simple answer is almost certainly training.

Put simply if a given number of people retire (or leave for other reasons) then you need that same number of people to replace them.

Certainly for my neck of the woods retirements (etc) have continued unabated, in fact some have been brought forward, whilst replacement hasn’t been able to keep up anywhere close, partly due to recruitment issues, but mainly due to the almost total lack of training which occurred for a large part of the year, and even now is constrained.

Just for current staff there’s a training backlog, with many routine training interventions not having occurred since March. So you have more people needing training for whatever reason, and less capacity to deliver it due to social distancing (etc).

Something has to give, and choices have had to be made as to where the axe falls. You can’t run something with resources which just aren’t there. Naturally it probably doesn’t help that Northern don’t seem to have been in a brilliant position before this kicked off.

If someone draws up a service plan which requires 50 driver duties at a depot to run it, then you have to be pretty confident that there are the numbers to be able to cover those 50 duties every day. If that’s not going to happen then quite simply cancellations are going to occur, and the nature of crewing is such that it’s very difficult to match uncovered duties with less important services. Furthermore, the evil nature of crew-related cancellations is that the effects spread out to affect more than the segment for which there’s no driver (eg incoming driver needs to stable train so is now late for his own next train). I’m not saying Northern couldn’t have provided timings more useful, but as a rule you’re better with having them attempt to run a service they think they have the capability to deliver, than taking your chances with something they don’t, and having multiple messes throughout every day according to where the uncovered duties fall.

 

[yorksrob]

Simple answer is almost certainly training.

Put simply if a given number of people retire (or leave for other reasons) then you need that same number of people to replace them.

Certainly for my neck of the woods retirements (etc) have continued unabated, in fact some have been brought forward, whilst replacement hasn’t been able to keep up anywhere close, partly due to recruitment issues, but mainly due to the almost total lack of training which occurred for a large part of the year, and even now is constrained.

Just for current staff there’s a training backlog, with many routine training interventions not having occurred since March. So you have more people needing training for whatever reason, and less capacity to deliver it due to social distancing (etc).

Something has to give, and choices have had to be made as to where the axe falls. You can’t run something with resources which just aren’t there. Naturally it probably doesn’t help that Northern don’t seem to have been in a brilliant position before this kicked off.

If someone draws up a service plan which requires 50 driver duties at a depot to run it, then you have to be pretty confident that there are the numbers to be able to cover those 50 duties every day. If that’s not going to happen then quite simply cancellations are going to occur, and the nature of crewing is such that it’s very difficult to match uncovered duties with less important services. Furthermore, the evil nature of crew-related cancellations is that the effects spread out to affect more than the segment for which there’s no driver (eg incoming driver needs to stable train so is now late for his own next train). I’m not saying Northern couldn’t have provided timings more useful, but as a rule you’re better with having them attempt to run a service they think they have the capability to deliver, than taking your chances with something they don’t, and having multiple messes throughout every day according to where the uncovered duties fall.

Well, I can't blame people for retiring (Christ, I would tomorrow, given the choice) but at some stage Northern needs to be running a service. We've had three months since lockdown proper ended. Why haven't Northern been training to cover the service.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why haven't Northern been training to cover the service.

Because they’ve not been able to until Covid-secure methods of training could be devised, agreed and started. Even now training is very much less productive.

And it only takes one instructor driver or trainee to go off with suspected symptoms for training to fall behind even the revised plan.

 

[yorksrob]

Because they’ve not been able to until Covid-secure methods of training could be devised, agreed and started. Even now training is very much less productive.

And it only takes one instructor driver or trainee to go off with suspected symptoms for training to fall behind even the revised plan.

Well, they've had summer whilst restrictions have been relaxed. It's unacceptable that Bentham line passengers will likely have to wait until next summer before the situation settles down again.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well, they've had summer whilst restrictions have been relaxed. It's unacceptable that Bentham line passengers will likely have to wait until next summer before the situation settles down again.

As ever - perhaps you could get a job with Northern, work out a solution that is acceptable to you, and implement it. I wish you well in discussion with ASLEF, particularly the Liverpool and Manchester LDCs.

 

[dk1]

Well, they've had summer whilst restrictions have been relaxed. It's unacceptable that Bentham line passengers will likely have to wait until next summer before the situation settles down again.

Methods of working have only recently been agreed between management & unions & even that is extremely slow going. Unprecedented times & unprecedented levels of training required with new fleets as well as cascading units. Add to that the new entrants to the driving grade, the 'bubbles' needed to be set up & the positive cases that keep setting things back even further. The restrictions many areas of the North are now going onto add to these woes. I think even next Summer is looking rather hit & miss for a return to normal levels on some routes.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think even next Summer is looking rather hit & miss for a return to normal levels on some routes.

Even if passengers came back to the network in normal levels by next summer - which they won’t - I suspect some routes wouldn’t be back to normal from a resource point of view until well into 2022. Some of the operators have huge gaps in competent traincrew.

However the reduction in passengers will help here, as the demand driven service reductions will help ease the position.

 

[Bikeman78]

Methods of working have only recently been agreed between management & unions & even that is extremely slow going. Unprecedented times & unprecedented levels of training required with new fleets as well as cascading units. Add to that the new entrants to the driving grade, the 'bubbles' needed to be set up & the positive cases that keep setting things back even further. The restrictions many areas of the North are now going onto add to these woes. I think even next Summer is looking rather hit & miss for a return to normal levels on some routes.

Many would argue that this is the 'normal' level of service from Northern, and has been since May 2018. Transpennine aren't much better but they manage to slip under the radar.

 

[yorksrob]

Many would argue that this is the 'normal' level of service from Northern, and has been since May 2018. Transpennine aren't much better but they manage to slip under the radar.

Personally, I find TPE on the core to be the best service its been in fifteen years. The extremities beyond Leeds are still poor though, with large gaps in the evenings etc

 

[Eloise]

And why isn't the resource available ? Lockdown proper ended months ago.

Northern rail is contracted to run a usable service between Skipton and Lancaster. What possible excuse do you have for a decent all day service between Skipton and Lancaster not to be run ?

Last time I looked, granted it was few minutes ago so may have changed, COVID hasn't gone away and railway workers are not immune from it, you get symptoms you don't go into work. Some cannot work from home. Lack of training too as mentioned above is also a cause. Some resilience may be being built in to allow for some self-isolation, that's sensible in my opinion. As I said I'd rather have a reduced service that is highly likely to be resourced.

 

[yorksrob]

Last time I looked, granted it was few minutes ago so may have changed, COVID hasn't gone away and railway workers are not immune from it, you get symptoms you don't go into work. Some cannot work from home. Lack of training too as mentioned above is also a cause. Some resilience may be being built in to allow for some self-isolation, that's sensible in my opinion. As I said I'd rather have a reduced service that is highly likely to be resourced.

Covid will be an issue for all TOC's, and with regard to your last point, that is simply not a reasonable trade-off for a service which is already 2-3 hourly.

 

[The Planner]

Covid will be an issue for all TOC's, and with regard to your last point, that is simply not a reasonable trade-off for a service which is already 2-3 hourly.

What are you trading off to allow the Bentham service to increase? every TOC has this issue with training as noted above, two in a cab for route learning etc just isn't happening at the moment and you will have people kept off work just to shield. Personally, i would go as far as saying that I wouldn't take a lot of notice of the base Dec timetable at all across the country, as its pretty likely to reduce or change again. DfT are already tinkering and instructing TOCs now based on emergency agreements even after the offer has been made.

 

[yorksrob]

What are you trading off to allow the Bentham service to increase? every TOC has this issue with training as noted above, two in a cab for route learning etc just isn't happening at the moment and you will have people kept off work just to shield. Personally, i would go as far as saying that I wouldn't take a lot of notice of the base Dec timetable at all across the country, as its pretty likely to reduce or change again. DfT are already tinkering and instructing TOCs now based on emergency agreements even after the offer has been made.

Like I say, If pushed I would sacrifice maybe one of the stoppers towards Shipley. Perhaps Bradford passengers could be accommodated on the Leeds train and change. The stoppers I've been on on that line haven't been ram-packed.

As for what DfT is concocting, I dread to think

 

[yorksrob]

While in some ways the situation is similar to what it was a few months ago - people being told to work from home where possible and in some areas people are being told not to avoid non-essential journeys, what worked as an emergency timetable in the Spring and Summer doesn't work anymore. One key difference being schools, colleges and universities have reopened so the services scholars used are needed again. Another being commuter demand has changed - some people who couldn't work from home back in March now can (e.g. due to their employer ordering the necessary hardware), while a change in customer demand has meant more warehouse workers are required and fewer retail/hospitality staff are required.

With Northern I do not believe the emergency timetable was drawn up based on predicted passenger demand but was drawn up based on how which lines the available drivers were trained on e.g. if on a given morning there were likely to be 20 drivers available and all of them signed line a but only 5 signed line b then line a retained a better service regardless of passenger numbers.

Thanks. That's an interesting insight.

 

[bramling]

Well, I can't blame people for retiring (Christ, I would tomorrow, given the choice) but at some stage Northern needs to be running a service. We've had three months since lockdown proper ended. Why haven't Northern been training to cover the service.

1) Classroom training has to be socially distanced. That means in some cases it either can’t involve as many people as before, or in other cases couldn’t be done at all.

2) Staff absence - what happens if your trainer was shielding? Remember some of the shielders have only fairly recently returned, in some cases still with restrictions as to what they’re allowed to do (based on individual risk assessments).

3) In-cab training. At most places this stopped completely right through the spring and summer. Quite simply because two people couldn’t fit in a cab and be socially distanced.

4) In some cases I suspect trainers qualified to drive trains were redeployed to cover uncovered duties.

This list is not exhaustive!

I can’t comment on the specific situation at Northern, however the likelihood is they *have* been doing some training, but consider the massive backlog there will be since March, and as you no doubt know training for some roles (eg driver) takes a *long* time, measured in years. Remember also some people may have been some way through their training back in March, but having then not had anything through the summer have been set back and had to restart modules or even complete courses from scratch. I’ve certainly heard reports of people having to do the latter.

If you add in the fact that some TOCs (including Northern) were already in the mire with extra training requirements for new fleets and timetable changes, you can see how they are now screwed. One way or other this won’t be a quick resolution, it will probably take years to get back to “normal”.

 

[30907]

I am a frequent user and there has always been a service at around 10:19 for the ten years or so I've been using it.

Yes I know - and long before, as I said (from Leeds NW electrification anyway).
That is why running it in preference to the 1219 would make sense.
I am not sure what - if anything - you are disagreeing with in my post.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes I know - and long before, as I said (from Leeds NW electrification anyway).
That is why running it in preference to the 1219 would make sense.
I am not sure what - if anything - you are disagreeing with in my post.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying the route needs the full service really.