Better service needed rural routes such as the Bentham line this winter

[CBlue]

Far better to operate things in a COVID safe way than pretend there isn't a problem.


You'd quickly go from a reduced service to no service if there was an outbreak among driving staff causing large numbers to self-isolate - at least with mitigation and measures in place some services can still be run. No different to any other workplace - my employer restricts particular departments to particular areas of our building, with no mixing to ensure we can maintain production and R&D without taking the entire company down if someone tests positive.

 

[AMD]

It should also be pointed out that the reduced timetable (or the increase to it) has also been discussed with external bodies eg councils, user groups and Transport for the North, so it's not an arbitrary decision by Northern as to where services will or will not run; albeit within the parameters of where Northern has the resource.
As has been pointed out by other people above there are still issues out there, people are still having to self isolate because they or a partner have tested positive; training now has a massive backlog because it has been paused since March until recently, plus this has a knock on effect with recruitment.
We are presently only just running the existing service (with another uplift forthcoming in December), and I can tell you that if things deteriorate any further with Covid we will be looking at another reduction in service or a good number of cancellations - already Merseyrail is implementing some reductions next week.

 

[Eloise]

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying the route needs the full service really.

If you're a daily user of the line then contact Northern and ask for their view. If you're an occasional user then maybe contact them with what day you're travelling and maybe they'll rip up the plan for the day to ensure you can have your train. I only hope the day you're travelling isn't the day my mum needs to travel between x and y when they will rip up the plan for her.

In all seriousness it is about trade offs here and simply what can be reliably resourced. Not everyone will be happy with the plan but that's just life, you can't please all the people all the time. If they put in the full service and cancelled it everyday due to lack of crew you would be complaining about that too. The industry just can't win on this one with some.

 

[yorksrob]

If you're a daily user of the line then contact Northern and ask for their view. If you're an occasional user then maybe contact them with what day you're travelling and maybe they'll rip up the plan for the day to ensure you can have your train. I only hope the day you're travelling isn't the day my mum needs to travel between x and y when they will rip up the plan for her.

In all seriousness it is about trade offs here and simply what can be reliably resourced. Not everyone will be happy with the plan but that's just life, you can't please all the people all the time. If they put in the full service and cancelled it everyday due to lack of crew you would be complaining about that too. The industry just can't win on this one with some.

As I've said before, the priority should be that all routes have a decent usable service, even if that means that some routes which usually have several trains an hour, have slightly fewer. That is not an unreasonable assertion

 

[peters]

It should also be pointed out that the reduced timetable (or the increase to it) has also been discussed with external bodies eg councils, user groups and Transport for the North, so it's not an arbitrary decision by Northern as to where services will or will not run; albeit within the parameters of where Northern has the resource.

Based on what I've been told back in March Northern asked local authorities if they had knew of any significant key worker flows and the council didn't have any information of any (the census data is almost 10 years old now), then Northern presumed there weren't any and axed around 60% of services without any further consultation. The chairman of Mid Cheshire Rail Users Group has said they were not contacted prior to Northern reducing the service to 2 hourly and it involved a lot of work for them to even get Northern to reintroduce one of the missing services schoolchildren used prior to the schools returning in September, two of the services used by schoolchildren aren't even set to be reinstated in the December 2020 timetable change! The chairman also said Northern weren't interested in being told about anyone who needed to commute who wasn't classed as a key worker (even if they couldn't work from home) and their line of defence for the severity of cuts from the regional director was often "Well we've not had as many complaints from passengers on your line as from passengers on other lines," even though only passed on complaints made by email got forwarded on to the regional director - telephone and social media complaints did not!

 

[Eloise]

It's may be your priority but may not be physically possible.

 

[Bald Rick]

With Northern I do not believe the emergency timetable was drawn up based on predicted passenger demand but was drawn up based on which lines the available drivers were trained on e.g. if on a given morning there were likely to be 20 drivers available and all of them signed line a but only 5 signed line b then line a retained a better service regardless of passenger numbers.

Not so. The service isn’t planned on a day to day basis. All the emergency timetables were drawn up on the basis on which were the most important for a passenger basis, balanced by a best estimate of likely forward traincrew availability. Drivers for most TOCs all sign multiple routes, and therefore for any given link or depot, if you were going to be 15% of drivers short (and many were) you had to plan on the basis of what service you could provide with 85% of normal resource. And allow further contingency - it is not as simple as dropping complete diagrams out, so the train crew that are in would typically be less productive for each shift.

 

[peters]

As I've said before, the priority should be that all routes have a decent usable service, even if that means that some routes which usually have several trains an hour, have slightly fewer. That is not an unreasonable assertion

Higher frequency doesn't always mean better though. If a school expects their pupils to arrive at 08:45 and it's 5-10 minutes walk from the station then one train arriving at 08:25 is ideal, if it's two trains at 08:12 and 08:42 then it's actually less good, unless there's too many passengers for one service. Although, saying that if there's multiple schools near different stations on the line it's unlikely one service could suit all school pupils.

 

[yorksrob]

It's may be your priority but may not be physically possible.

If it's not physically possible so be it. Northern needs to ensure more training of its staff in the longer term to ensure flexibility. However, as a philosophy, ensuring all routes have a usable service first is the right priority.

On a plus note, I read that the S&C is at least getting its missing services from December. It's good as numbers appear to be recovering on the route when I'm on it.

Higher frequency doesn't always mean better though. If a school expects their pupils to arrive at 08:45 and it's 5-10 minutes walk from the station then one train arriving at 08:25 is ideal, if it's two trains at 08:12 and 08:42 then it's actually less good, unless there's too many passengers for one service. Although, saying that if there's multiple schools near different stations on the line it's unlikely one service could suit all school pupils.

Admittedly schools chucking out will complicate the issue. On routes with multiple trains an hour, they should avoid removing trains with lots of pupils.

 

[Eloise]

How do you propose they train under social distancing rules?

 

[CBlue]

I'm actually struggling to understand yorksrob's point here. Yes, a reduced service might cause him some inconvenience - but in all honesty that's just tough. We are all having to deal with inconveniences as a result of COVID in various ways.

It's all well and good saying that Northern "need to ensure more training in the longer term" but as has been previously stated, this isn't easily possible at the moment and you can hardly have expected them to have detailed advance plans in place for a pandemic before all this started.

 

[PHILIPE]

If it's not physically possible so be it. Northern needs to ensure more training of its staff in the longer term to ensure flexibility. However, as a philosophy, ensuring all routes have a usable service first is the right priority.

On a plus note, I read that the S&C is at least getting its missing services from December. It's good as numbers appear to be recovering on the route when I'm on it.



Admittedly schools chucking out will complicate the issue. On routes with multiple trains an hour, they should avoid removing trains with lots of pupils.

You won't know if the S & C will get those trains back until they have been loaded in Journey Planner. All trains are currently shown with a warning and don't take any notice of Real Time Trains for reliable information at the moment.

 

[yorksrob]

You won't know if the S & C will get those trains back until they have been loaded in Journey Planner. All trains are currently shown with a warning and don't take any notice of Real Time Trains for reliable information at the moment.

Yes, one to file under "I'll believe it when I see it " !

To be fair, I do find the current S&C timetable quite usable since they introduced the evening services.

 

[dk1]

How do you propose they train under social distancing rules?

Training bubbles.

 

[Eloise]

Training bubbles.

Indeed, so I hear from the conversations I have at work. And I understand, and deal with, the limitations that brings. I was more asking Yorksrob for his take as clearly they think Northern isn't quite doing it right.

 

[dk1]

Indeed, so I hear from the conversations I have at work. And I understand, and deal with, the limitations that brings. I was more asking Yorksrob for his take as clearly they think Northern isn't quite doing it right.

Ah fair enough. It's a cosy environment in them cabs. Especially with the newer fleets.

 

[yorksrob]

How do you propose they train under social distancing rules?

I know from on here that TOC's are training people, so your question has been superceded by events.

If Northern have a lack of staff to operate the Bentham line, training for this should take priority as the route currently have a usable all day service.

 

[Ianno87]

If Northern have a lack of staff to operate the Bentham line, training for this should take priority as the route currently have a usable all day service.

...in your opinion.

It's always going to be a trade off between restoring Bentham line services and restoring more services on other routes that might benefit more passengers (albeit in a smaller way) overall.

 

[Eloise]

...in your opinion.

It's always going to be a trade off between restoring Bentham line services and restoring more services on other routes that might benefit more passengers (albeit in a smaller way) overall.

But until the Bentham line has a full service then no reason or other prioritising will be right methinks.

 

[Bald Rick]

I know from on here that TOC's are training people, so your question has been superceded by events.

They all are, but at a much slower rate than under normal circumstances, which is not even maintaining the shortfall, let alone catching it up. At least, that’s what the Instrcutor Drivers I know are telling me (one of whom is currently self isolating as one of his trainees tested positive, so no training for any of his students for a fortnight).

 

[dk1]

They all are, but at a much slower rate than under normal circumstances, which is not even maintaining the shortfall, let alone catching it up. At least, that’s what the Instrcutor Drivers I know are telling me (one of whom is currently self isolating as one of his trainees tested positive, so no training for any of his students for a fortnight).

I know another that has had to self isolate for a second time so is contemplating jacking in the DI role as it is now costing him more in losing free day working and Sundays than he is getting in bonuses for training someone. If that's the case, what's the point in doing it?

 

[Starmill]

Lockdown proper ended months ago.

In case you haven't noticed, millions of people living in England are today being told that they should avoid all travel.

 

[yorksrob]

In case you haven't noticed, millions of people living in England are today being told that they should avoid all travel.

Be that as it may, a large proportion of the Bentham line is in a tier 1 area and it's population haven't been told to avoid all travel. And frankly, even if they do move up the tiers, they should have had some semblance of a service in the summer when everyone was supposed to be able to travel.

...in your opinion.

It's always going to be a trade off between restoring Bentham line services and restoring more services on other routes that might benefit more passengers (albeit in a smaller way) overall.

But until the Bentham line has a full service then no reason or other prioritising will be right methinks.

Yep. That's more or less it. Priority should be getting a decent all day service back on all routes, not cherry picking what routes we can be bothered with.

 

[Eloise]

It's not cherry picking what they can be bothered with, that is unfair.

 

[Ianno87]

It's not cherry picking what they can be bothered with, that is unfair.

Agree, I prefer the term "targeting limited resources in a challenging situation where they would provide most benefit". Which may or may not be the Bentham line.

 

[Class 170101]

I know another that has had to self isolate for a second time so is contemplating jacking in the DI role as it is now costing him more in losing free day working and Sundays than he is getting in bonuses for training someone. If that's the case, what's the point in doing it?

I'm guessing he hasn't had it and therefore immune from it, if he was does that mean it wouldn't matter if he had covid positive trainees because he has had it already?

 

[yorksrob]

It's not cherry picking what they can be bothered with, that is unfair.

Agree, I prefer the term "targeting limited resources in a challenging situation where they would provide most benefit". Which may or may not be the Bentham line.

It's not just Northern doing the cherry picking you understand. I strongly suspect that this is partly directed by DfT/TfN etc.

 

[Ianno87]

It's not just Northern doing the cherry picking you understand. I strongly suspect that this is partly directed by DfT/TfN etc.

As in (from DfT/Treasury): "We're currently subsidising TOCs to the tune of millions of pounds per day; we want those TOCs to be spending this money wisely in the most effective way possible".

Seems reasonable to me.

 

[yorksrob]

As in (from DfT/Treasury): "We're currently subsidising TOCs to the tune of millions of pounds per day; we want those TOCs to be spending this money wisely in the most effective way possible".

Seems reasonable to me.

Isn't running a usable passenger service spending money wisely ?

 

[Ianno87]

Isn't running a usable passenger service spending money wisely ?

Provided it's used to the benefit of the highest number of possible passengers and not just spreading the fresh air around more trains, yes.