Big Stations with no Ticket Barriers

[scrapy]

I'm not used to travelling free, but on an earlier posting I've already given at least 10 reasons why I don't like this uniquely British institution.

My only experience of mainline (not metro) train travel in Europe was into Barcelona Sants, which has automatic ticket barriers so it is not only Britain that has barriers.

Had Clarence boarded a train without a valid ticket in other countries he may have been very heavily fined or even kicked off the train en-route,possibly causing him to miss his flight (I witnessed this on my return trip from Barcelona where the ticket checker made use of his baton!).

I think Clarence would prefer the ticket barriers

 

[N P Johnson]

My only experience of mainline (not metro) train travel in Europe was into Barcelona Sants, which has automatic ticket barriers so it is not only Britain that has barriers.

Had Clarence boarded a train without a valid ticket in other countries he may have been very heavily fined or even kicked off the train en-route,possibly causing him to miss his flight (I witnessed this on my return trip from Barcelona where the ticket checker made use of his baton!).

I think Clarence would prefer the ticket barriers

Haven't been to Barcelona before, will be there next month though. Will post again if barriers are there. Spain, I think, is curious in actually having a different track gauge to the rest of Europe. I'd be interested to know if anyone can confirm this.

Meanwhile, Ethel's on the train to Scarborough, to visit her sister Hilda. Scarborough's a nice place, lovely sea air. Ethel's really old, though. She can actually remember the Titanic sinking when it happened. So she's hoping that Hilda will have brought her son, and Ethel's nephew, Horace, along, to help with her exteremely heavy luggage, as she doesn't want to be lugging it up the steps on her own. She's hoping Scarborough station doesn't have barriers, so Horace can meet her on the platform....

 

[northwichcat]

Haven't been to Barcelona before, will be there next month though. Will post again if barriers are there. Spain, I think, is curious in actually having a different track gauge to the rest of Europe. I'd be interested to know if anyone can confirm this.

Barcelona Sants does have barriers (as does Barcelona Airport station) and if your ticket smudges under the heat then you're screwed. Can't remember if all the platforms are barriered though. If you have a regional or intercity print at home ticket then they wouldn't be accepted by the barriers. In Paris I do recall that only the RER and Metro platforms are barriered.

IIRC the Metro has barriers on entry to the platforms but turnstiles on exit that don't require you to put in a ticket but prevent people entering by the exits.

 

[D1009]

Meanwhile, Ethel's on the train to Scarborough, to visit her sister Hilda. Scarborough's a nice place, lovely sea air. Ethel's really old, though. She can actually remember the Titanic sinking when it happened. So she's hoping that Hilda will have brought her son, and Ethel's nephew, Horace, along, to help with her exteremely heavy luggage, as she doesn't want to be lugging it up the steps on her own. She's hoping Scarborough station doesn't have barriers, so Horace can meet her on the platform....

Scarborough station has neither steps nor barriers.

 

[island]

*Anti-Pedant* AA211 MAN-JFK, UA21 MAN-EWR.

I'll give you the former, but the latter is New Jersey.

Meanwhile, Ethel's on the train to Scarborough, to visit her sister Hilda. Scarborough's a nice place, lovely sea air. Ethel's really old, though. She can actually remember the Titanic sinking when it happened. So she's hoping that Hilda will have brought her son, and Ethel's nephew, Horace, along, to help with her exteremely heavy luggage, as she doesn't want to be lugging it up the steps on her own. She's hoping Scarborough station doesn't have barriers, so Horace can meet her on the platform....

It doesn't, but if it did, Horace would very likely be let through on explaining himself to the barrier attendant or at worst on purchasing a 10p platform ticket.

 

[Ascot]

I'll give you the former, but the latter is New Jersey.

You can give me the other as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_metropolitan_area

*Ref, IATA NYC.

 

[mallard]

It doesn't, but if it did, Horace would very likely be let through on explaining himself to the barrier attendant or at worst on purchasing a 10p platform ticket.

Have you ever actually been to a railway station? At my local station they have a strict policy of not allowing anyone onto the the platform without a ticket. The cheapest ticket available is a single/return (same price, return means it's easier to get out of the barriers again) to the next station at over £2.

Yes, I know this policy violates the "rules" about ticket barriers/CTAs, but as we all know, "rules" in the railway only ever apply to the passenger, never the TOC.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Also, why are people so against ticket barriers?

Why ?

• One company patrols the tickets barriers and yet another forces the restrictions of another company's tickets
• Ticket barriers sometime reject valid tickets for a service for immediate departure
• Many tickets have time restrictions: afternoon peaks and advance purchase

I agree with the ticket barriers on two conditions:

• the company running the ticket barriers runs all the trains departing from that station. No third party enforcement.
  
• One timed restriction, no use of 09:30 tickets before 09:30. Avoids complications of afternoon timed tickets and advance purchase tickets.

As far I can see only one operation fulfill these two conditions: TfL (just about)

 

[mallard]

Why ?

• One company patrols the tickets barriers and yet another forces the restrictions of another company's tickets
• Ticket barriers sometime reject valid tickets for a service for immediate departure
• Many tickets have time restrictions: afternoon peaks and advance purchase

A few more:

• Prevent non-passengers with legitimate reasons (helpers, meeters, enthusiasts, etc.) from reaching the platform.
• Severely restrict flow of passengers where not properly thought out (almost every station that wasn't built/rebuilt with barriers).
• Cause closure of station entrances.
• Prevents station from being used as a through route by locals, even when such use has been accepted/encouraged since the station opened (and in some cases, the site of the station was such a route even before it exisited.)
• Limit market of on-platform businesses, in some cases leading to their closure.
• Hassle for people with luggage/children/pets/etc.

I'd accept them at commuter stations with frequent "metro"-style DOO services, but at large intercity and regional stations, they are unjustified IMHO.

 

[island]

Have you ever actually been to a railway station?

No need to get smart.

 

[causton]

Have you ever actually been to a railway station? At my local station they have a strict policy of not allowing anyone onto the the platform without a ticket. The cheapest ticket available is a single/return (same price, return means it's easier to get out of the barriers again) to the next station at over £2.

Yes, I know this policy violates the "rules" about ticket barriers/CTAs, but as we all know, "rules" in the railway only ever apply to the passenger, never the TOC.

I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever come across someone who will not open a barrier for me to see someone onto a train, nor to simply take photos of trains! Have *you* ever been to a railway station and *actually* asked someone to open the barrier for you? If so, woe betide the TOC you travelled with. Even FCC let them open for me...

 

[N P Johnson]

I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever come across someone who will not open a barrier for me to see someone onto a train, nor to simply take photos of trains! Have *you* ever been to a railway station and *actually* asked someone to open the barrier for you? If so, woe betide the TOC you travelled with. Even FCC let them open for me...

If so, what's the point of having barriers at all? If you can get round them by saying you're accompanying someone else to the platform, or even more plausible, going to meet someone getting off a train with luggage, that isn't with you at the moment, then wouldn't everybody try that?

The point about barriers is that they're a very ruthless, all or nothing method of ticket control. There's no place for exceptions. No ticket, no admission. And by the way, why should anyone have to "buy" a platform ticket? "Pay" for the privilege of helping someone else with their luggage?

My earlier example about Clarence demonstrates someone who wants to board a train without a ticket, but it's not his fault that he hasn't got one, the consequences of him missing it will be catastrophic for him, and he fully intends to pay the conductor the moment he gets on board. But because there happen to be a few intentional fare dodgers (surely less so, though, on inter-city services), he's got to suffer and miss his train because the station has barriers. We all know that the jobsworths who operate them wouldn't let him through despite the facts of his story. And yes, he'll probably have to pay a higher fare on board the train than he would have done had he bought his ticket in advance, but it's a price worth paying if he manages to catch his flight. The suggestion that he might be charged with an offence, or fined, is totally ludicrous. The train companies should be running the services for the benefit of the passengers that generate their income, rather than their own convenience, and such an inflexible approach that ticket barriers reflect might deter some honest users from travelling by train in the first place.

 

[island]

The train companies should be running the services for the benefit of the passengers that generate their income, rather than their own convenience, and such an inflexible approach that ticket barriers reflect might deter some honest users from travelling by train in the first place.

That old chestnut again! We're over 15 years out of British Rail world; the train companies are here to make a profit, not run a public service.

Incidentally, I have in the past been let through barriers on undertaking to pay the full anytime on board to the guard, when the train was about to leave, on a non-penalty fare TOC.

 

[northwichcat]

Even FCC let them open for me...

But what about G4S staff acting on behalf of Northern? Even some train crews have had problems getting past them!

 

[185]

My only experience of mainline (not metro) train travel in Europe was into Barcelona Sants, which has automatic ticket barriers so it is not only Britain that has barriers.

Had Clarence boarded a train without a valid ticket in other countries he may have been very heavily fined or even kicked off the train en-route,possibly causing him to miss his flight (I witnessed this on my return trip from Barcelona where the ticket checker made use of his baton!).

I think Clarence would prefer the ticket barriers

Barcelona's barriers in Sants Stn are nice wide, bright, glazed affairs.

Barriers in Britain look like a cross between something from Alton Towers and a lunatic asylum.

 

[N P Johnson]

That old chestnut again! We're over 15 years out of British Rail world; the train companies are here to make a profit, not run a public service.

Incidentally, I have in the past been let through barriers on undertaking to pay the full anytime on board to the guard, when the train was about to leave, on a non-penalty fare TOC.

Are you sure? If the railways aren't a public service, then why are they there?
Almost certainly, if we were to take the "profit" approach to it, a good many branch lines would close, and there would be fewer services outside peak times. The most extreme example of this way of looking at train services was outlined in Serpell's report of 1983. This would have cut the network back to a very basic skeleton, that would, for example, have seen the closure of the Midland Main Line to the East Midlands and Sheffield. Motor coaches were thought to be the thing of the future then. Railways were a 19th century relic.

In the 1940s the rail network was nationalised on the grounds that it was, indeed, a public service, that should be run for the taxpayer's benefit. That was in Labour's 1945 manifesto. 50 years later, a Tory government, with a small majority, privatised the system, in the final year of its term, this not having been included in their manifesto. The Clapham and Potters Bar disasters came soon afterwards.

 

[tbtc]

50 years later, a Tory government, with a small majority, privatised the system, in the final year of its term, this not having been included in their manifesto. The Clapham and Potters Bar disasters came soon afterwards

The Clapham Junction train crash happened in 1988

 

[northwichcat]

The Clapham Junction train crash happened in 1988

It seems to be a common misconception that railway privatisation was initiated by Margaret Thatcher's government not John Major's government.

 

[tbtc]

Meanwhile, Ethel's on the train to Scarborough, to visit her sister Hilda. Scarborough's a nice place, lovely sea air. Ethel's really old, though. She can actually remember the Titanic sinking when it happened. So she's hoping that Hilda will have brought her son, and Ethel's nephew, Horace, along, to help with her exteremely heavy luggage, as she doesn't want to be lugging it up the steps on her own. She's hoping Scarborough station doesn't have barriers, so Horace can meet her on the platform....

So, to have remembered that having happened, Ethel would have to be close to 110 years old?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It seems to be a common misconception that railway privatisation was initiated by Margaret Thatcher's government not John Major's government.

It does - sadly.

As far as I can remember, privatisation was in the 1992 Tory manifesto - I think I still have a copy in the cellar - can't be sure though

 

[ainsworth74]

As far as I can remember, privatisation was in the 1992 Tory manifesto - I think I still have a copy in the cellar - can't be sure though

And 65 seats is hardly a small majority...

 

[Batman]

And 65 seats is hardly a small majority...

Rail privatization was one of the central policies of the Conservatives 1992 manifesto (and opposition to it was one of the central policies of the Labour 1992 manifesto).

The Conservative majority in 1992 was 21.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As far as I can remember, privatisation was in the 1992 Tory manifesto - I think I still have a copy in the cellar - can't be sure though

You can find a copy on the wikipedia page for the 92 election, as well as manifestos for all the big 3 parties (and some minor ones) going back to 1945.

Some of them are quite interesting documents if you have a look though them and remind you of have political priorities have changes and how misconceptions have been formed over time. For example, a commitment to publicly owned healthcare was mentioned in the Conservatives 1945 manifesto and the poll tax was mentioned in the 87 Tory manifesto.

The Labour 83 and Tory 01 menifestos are almost laughable when you look back at how unrealistic some of those polices were.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Clapham and Potters Bar disasters came soon afterwards.

Aren't you forgetting other major rail disasters from the Railtrack era such as Southall, Hatfield and Ladbrook Grove?

 

[ainsworth74]

The Conservative majority in 1992 was 21.

Apologies I got my numbers rather mixed up

 

[12CSVT]

Just a reminder this thread is supposed to be about stations without ticket barriers.

To get things back on track (sorry about the pun) I don't think Carlisle has had barrier checks since 1984.

 

[N P Johnson]

So, to have remembered that having happened, Ethel would have to be close to 110 years old?

Well yes, hence the name. She might even remember Queen Victoria on a good day.
Horace isn't exactly a spring chicken either.
I'll hopefully have another ticket barrier anecdote shortly.

 

[island]

You can make up as many straw men and special cases as you like, but as I said above, the criteria for installing barriers do not include "no genuine customer must ever possibly be inconvenienced by gating this station".

 

[mallard]

You can make up as many straw men and special cases as you like, but as I said above, the criteria for installing barriers do not include "no genuine customer must ever possibly be inconvenienced by gating this station".

So basically you're saying that you're not going to listen to anyone who disagrees with you and you'll disregard their arguments as "straw men and special cases" then?

I think you've missed the point of a discussion forum a bit there...

 

[island]

I'm perfectly willing to listen to all arguments and accept well-constructed ones, but saying "a station should not be gated because it might inconvenience a few dozen people, despite that it will probably increase fare revenue by £½m" isn't well-constructed.

 

[mallard]

I'm perfectly willing to listen to all arguments and accept well-constructed ones, but saying "a station should not be gated because it might inconvenience a few dozen people, despite that it will probably increase fare revenue by £½m" isn't well-constructed.

Do you actually have any concrete numbers that show an increase in revenue after installing barriers?

I agree with them at high-volume, "metro"-style stations with frequent services. e.g Merseyrail, Birmingham's cross-city and snow hill routes, etc.

On low-frequency intercity and local routes, I just don't see the need for them. They seem to be an excuse for lazy ticket-checking and a way to force people to use wholly inadequate ticket purchasing facilities. If you want to reduce ticketless travel, making it easier for people to buy tickets is at least as good a place to start as installing barriers! Sadly, TOCs just prefer to see all passengers as potential criminals. Northern, for instance loses out on a lot of revenue by having "buy on board" services where the ticket seller only bothers to sell tickets at the beginning and end of the journey, missing many short-hop passengers (and allowing the unscrupulous ones to claim they only got on at the previous stop). Better on-board staffing almost certainly be more profitable than spending millions installing barriers at small stations.

For stations with mixed services, the different types usually use different platforms, so they can be barriered selectively.

So, for low-frequency local and intercity routes, are there any concrete examples of barriers increasing revenue above the cost of installing barriers in the first place?

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Here's one I haven't seen mentioned.

Southeastern's flagship station, and also a DfT Category B Station: Bromley South.

Even when there were ticket barriers, there were many periods where the barriers were locked open by staff at no particular pattern - peak, off-peak, lunch time, weekends, etc, and of course, after 20:30, where the gate line becomes un-staffed.

Thanks to ongoing station refurb, there are no ticket barriers at all - they were un-installed and replaced with standalone Oyster validators. The work is also behind schedule, so the station is *still* without barriers, and will continue to be so until the new ticket hall is completed.

I expect the new barriers to come in towards the end of the summer, and again to be left open on a regular basis. (Although, locked barriers and a team of 6 RPO's is not an uncommon sight).

 

[N P Johnson]

I'm perfectly willing to listen to all arguments and accept well-constructed ones, but saying "a station should not be gated because it might inconvenience a few dozen people, despite that it will probably increase fare revenue by £½m" isn't well-constructed.

I think a distinction SHOULD be made between dishonest fare evaders and those who simply haven't bought a ticket because they didn't get chance. Certainly big stations which largely cater for inter city services, such as Doncaster, Sheffield, York, don't need to have barriers because I doubt whether there is significant opportunity for deliberate fare evasion on long-distance trains.
I gave the example of Clarence but I'd have thought in the modern day and age where most people have credit cards then there could be a facility for tickets to be bought from a fixed machine situated on board the train. Those without tickets could be required to make use of this as soon as they get on board. So there'd be less reason for not having a ticket when the inspector comes round.
Agree Leeds is perhaps a slightly different station to the other 3 because it does handle quite a bit more local or commuter traffic, and passengers on such trains in general are less likely to have cumbersome luggage where they'll need help getting to the platform.
One station that seems unnecessarily barriered is Lincoln Central. I'd have thought most of the trains that use it have adequate on-board ticket-checking facilities. People trying to take bikes through the barriers can encounter difficulties.