Bio-mode operation FGW ??

[cumfy]

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/about-us/greater-west/bagw/bristol

....The second part of this project is the Intercity Express Programme which includes the manufacture and delivery into service, as well as maintenance, of 57 trains to replace some of the Intercity 125 trains currently operating on the Great Western Railway. Three new depots, built at London, Bristol and Swansea, will provide nightly maintenance of these new trains.

Benefits:

Greater acceleration - reducing journey times
More seats and tables per carriage
40% more seats into London Paddington per day
Enhanced customer communication systems and on board service
Electric and bio-mode operations that reduce harmful emissions
Improved reliability compared with the trains they replace

New trains will have said mode.

I am perplexed, as is Google.

 

[najaB]

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/about-us/greater-west/bagw/bristol

New trains will have said mode.

I am perplexed, as is Google.

Most likely a typo for 'bi-mode'. Either that or the new trains have a wash cycle.

 

[Rapidash]

Both the class 800's and the AT300's that First are getting are Bimodes, the latter having gurt big uprated engines to avoid beached whale impressions on the Devon Banks. One can only assume they'll be running off of the hot air generated in Stoke Bishop and Totnes

 

[cumfy]

So they just mean diesel-electric. Thanks.

Does anyone know if they considered batteries ?
That would have been good. But perhaps the gaps were too large ?

 

[HowardGWR]

Both the class 800's and the AT300's that First are getting are Bimodes, the latter having gurt big uprated engines to avoid beached whale impressions on the Devon Banks. One can only assume they'll be running off of the hot air generated in Stoke Bishop and Totnes

Taking note of your spelling. I see Bristol is using human-effluent bio-produced gas for buses, so who knows in the future?

 

[asylumxl]

Taking note of your spelling. I see Bristol is using human-effluent bio-produced gas for buses, so who knows in the future?

I also read online that the NR had signed a contract with a company to turn used coffee grounds from their major stations in to biofuel. Who knows, the left overs from ours coffees could be powering our trains soon.

 

[cf111]

I suppose it might save money on emptying the retention tanks...

 

[najaB]

So they just mean diesel-electric. Thanks.

Bi-mode is different to diesel-electric. There are already plenty of D-E trains on the network (e.g. Voyagers, HSTs) these use their engines to power their electric motors full time. The bi-modes are different in that they are also capable of running in pure electric mode on electrified lines.

Does anyone know if they considered batteries ?
That would have been good. But perhaps the gaps were too large ?

The current generation of battery technology wouldn't give enough range. Battery trains are useful for short non-electrified branches in electrified areas but not for long stretches of high-speed mainline operation.

 

[D6975]

I also read online that the NR had signed a contract with a company to turn used coffee grounds from their major stations in to biofuel. Who knows, the left overs from ours coffees could be powering our trains soon.

Even more profit for them to avoid paying tax on....

 

[cumfy]

The current generation of battery technology wouldn't give enough range.

Battery development has improved cost and performance. Now a 20 ft shipping container full will give 500kwh @ 2MW, so a voyager could go for 2 hours at an average of half power, 80mph at least, 160 miles say.

Cost about £1.2m though!

 

[najaB]

Battery development has improved cost and performance. Now a 20 ft shipping container full will give 500kwh @ 2MW, so a voyager could go for 2 hours at an average of half power, 80mph at least, 160 miles say.

Cost about £1.2m though!

Yes, it's impressive how much things have progressed in the last half-decade. Still not quite there though for trains - that same 20ft container could house a large generator and fuel tank that would easily give you a 500 mile range at full speed.

 

[Stats]

It was news to me, but some forum members may remember that Virgin trialled running a Voyager on biofuel some years ago.

First UK biodiesel train launched

The UK's first train to run on biodiesel is going into service as part of an attempt to make rail travel more environmentally friendly.
The Virgin Voyager has been modified to run on eco-friendly fuel and the company is aiming to convert more in the future.

The train uses a blended fuel which is 20% biodiesel - to reduce CO2 emissions without harming the engine.

 

[RobShipway]

If the government could get a deal at the correct price with Bombardier, then the Voyagers/Meridians could have a pantograph car added and be proper DEMU trains.

As stated in other threads, the Class 800/801(IEP) and AT300 trains are EDMU trains.

Bu I suspect in time for the Voyagers/Meridians in time, that you will be able to remove the diesel engines and place battery packs in their place to power the train and if they also have a pantograph car added as well I suspect then they will become BEMU's?

 

[D365]

Bu I suspect in time for the Voyagers/Meridians in time, that you will be able to remove the diesel engines and place battery packs in their place to power the train and if they also have a pantograph car added as well I suspect then they will become BEMU's?

I applaud you for remaining hopeful, however the only chance of big money being poured into these units will be if ROSCOs fear that they will fall out of use while there is still money to be made from them.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I suppose it might save money on emptying the retention tanks...

Well done!

 

[RobShipway]

I applaud you for remaining hopeful, however the only chance of big money being poured into these units will be if ROSCOs fear that they will fall out of use while there is still money to be made from them.

There is also the need as to what to do with the class 180's, should finance at the right price be given to add pantograph cars to the Voyagers/Meridians.

I am also interested to see what happens to the class 180's with the introduction of Class 365/387. IEP and AT300 trains as they seem to have no future past 2017, unless they go to someone like Grand Central who already operates class 180's.

 

[D365]

There is also the need as to what to do with the class 180's, should finance at the right price be given to add pantograph cars to the Voyagers/Meridians.

I am also interested to see what happens to the class 180's with the introduction of Class 365/387. IEP and AT300 trains as they seem to have no future past 2017, unless they go to someone like Grand Central who already operates class 180's.

Grand Central have confirmed that they will be taking on the five FGW Class 180s in order to replace their HSTs. Unless DB feels the need to order new replacement trains their future should be secure.

 

[swt_passenger]

...unless they go to someone like Grand Central who already operates class 180's.

GC announced/confirmed that they were taking them to replace their HSTs at least two years ago, it was first mentioned in a track access application, hence this press release:

The proposed investments include:
Significant investment in the rolling stock to improve reliability, including the option to move to a uniform fleet of Class 180 trains

http://www.grandcentralrail.com/about-us/news-press/grand-central-seeks-rail-contract-extension/

Here's a news item from last October:

Grand Central has also ordered a further five Class 180s from Angel Trains, to add to the five it already uses, which will be put into operation from 2017.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...tral-adding-five-more-class-180s-to-its-fleet

 

[Western Lord]

Battery development has improved cost and performance. Now a 20 ft shipping container full will give 500kwh @ 2MW, so a voyager could go for 2 hours at an average of half power, 80mph at least, 160 miles say.

Cost about £1.2m though!

The problem with battery powered vehicles, be they trains, cars or even aircraft, is that the batteries will not just have to provide propulsion, but also the power for all the ancilliary services. On a train you will want lighting, heating, air conditioning, hot drinks and food etc. At present, the electrical power for this comes (in the case of a diesel engine) via a generator, more or less for free.

 

[NSEFAN]

The problem with battery powered vehicles, be they trains, cars or even aircraft, is that the batteries will not just have to provide propulsion, but also the power for all the ancilliary services. On a train you will want lighting, heating, air conditioning, hot drinks and food etc. At present, the electrical power for this comes (in the case of a diesel engine) via a generator, more or less for free.

The power for these things is available easily, but it's definitely not free! A battery should be no different in this regard. The overall problem is that liquid fuels still have better energy densities than even the best cells that we currently have. One school of thought says that we should perhaps instead seek cells with less capacity but very high recharge rates such as super capacitors, which can recharge rapidly when the train stops.

 

[455driver]

Both the class 800's and the AT300's that First are getting are Bimodes, the latter having gurt big uprated engines to avoid beached whale impressions on the Devon Banks. One can only assume they'll be running off of the hot air generated in Stoke Bishop and Totnes

I think they will all have the same diesel engines its just that the ones for the South West will have them set at a higher rating.

 

[Chris125]

There is also the need as to what to do with the class 180's, should finance at the right price be given to add pantograph cars to the Voyagers/Meridians.

I can't see any existing trains having pantograph cars added, if there wasn't a business case before there won't be one now as the period to make back the investment only continues to decrease.

Should the Voyagers and Meridians find they have no work for in the future I think it's more likely they will be adapted for regional use with reduced power/fuel use/top speed and a greater seating density.

 

[RobShipway]

I can't see any existing trains having pantograph cars added, if there wasn't a business case before there won't be one now as the period to make back the investment only continues to decrease.

Should the Voyagers and Meridians find they have no work for in the future I think it's more likely they will be adapted for regional use with reduced power/fuel use/top speed and a greater seating density.

In a way I was hoping that would be what would happen with the class 180's that FGW have and that they would be put to use on the Reading - Redhill/Gatwick route.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Most likely a typo for 'bi-mode'. Either that or the new trains have a wash cycle.

Don't tell me they'll have a Comfort setting too.
(Other conditioners are available).

 

[40129]

Don't tell me they'll have a Comfort setting too.
(Other conditioners are available).

Won't that depend on the type/density of seats fitted?

 

[Rich McLean]

FYI, FGW will lose a 180 in September to GC. 4 will remain until 2017, unless that has changed in the last 6 months

 

[Chris125]

In a way I was hoping that would be what would happen with the class 180's that FGW have and that they would be put to use on the Reading - Redhill/Gatwick route.

I can't imagine the 180s would ever have been a candidate for bi-mode conversion as the power is transmitted directly, not via traction motors.

 

[swt_passenger]

FYI, FGW will lose a 180 in September to GC. 4 will remain until 2017, unless that has changed in the last 6 months

The recently available GW direct award agreement (dated March 2015) says they are off lease Dec 2016, with four immediately subleased back to FGW until such time as they are replaced by SET, presumably DfT have arranged that to avoid embarrassment if the SETs are late...

 

[jimm]

The recently available GW direct award agreement (dated March 2015) says they are off lease Dec 2016, with four immediately subleased back to FGW until such time as they are replaced by SET, presumably DfT have arranged that to avoid embarrassment if the SETs are late...

And why might they be late? It is the electrification work that is running behind, not Hitachi's production and testing plans.

On Cotswold Line duties, where the 180s currently operate, the 800s will have to work on diesel west of Oxford anyway, so swapping some of them for 180s is unlikely to be that much of an issue in terms of future stock transfers. And certainly less of a problem than ensuring, if wires fall short of Bristol for longer than planned, that enough HSTs are freed for modernisation for Scotrail.

 

[swt_passenger]

And why might they be late? It is the electrification work that is running behind, not Hitachi's production and testing plans.

I didn't say they would be late, just that DfT have apparently allowed for a sublease without a declared end date.