Birmingham [BHM] to Kelvedon

[redmen1892]

Hi All,

I am traveling tomorrow from any Birmingham Station to Kelvedon, returning on Sunday, I'm flexible on both outbound and inbound times.

The quoted SVR from BHM to KEL is £55.80 which is New Street to Euston, U1, then LST to KEL.

I know that Chiltern offer a Super off-peak for £19.50 departing from BMO.

Looking at NFM06, I can see a SVR from MYB to KEL quoted at £23.50 which combined with the SVR from BMO comes out at £43.00.

On checking nationalrail.co.uk, Trainline and WEBTIS platformed sites they all quote £29.50, WEBTIS show a £25.50 fare but i cant select it.

Am I mis-interpreting the NFM06 results.

Many thanks for your time

Cheers

Jon

 

[John @ home]

I am traveling tomorrow from any Birmingham Station to Kelvedon, returning on Sunday, I'm flexible on both outbound and inbound times.

The quoted SVR from BHM to KEL is £55.80

Agreed. This is the cheapest walk-on return ticket for the whole journey. The route shown on the ticket is "+ ANY PERMITTED".

I know that Chiltern offer a Super off-peak for £19.50 departing from BMO.

Agreed. It is often cheaper to split tickets, that is to buy more than one ticket for one journey.

Looking at NFM06, I can see a SVR from MYB to KEL quoted at £23.50 which combined with the SVR from BMO comes out at £43.00.

NFM06 is misleading in this respect. It is true that if you enter London Marylebone (MYB) to Kelvedon it shows an Off-Peak Return (SVR) fare of £23.50, but double-clicking on the fare shows that this ticket is issued from "London Terminals". Marylebone is not a London Terminal on a permitted route between London Group and Kelvedon, so this ticket is not valid there. That is why the ticket vending sites are charging more: they want you to pay for your Underground journey.

WEBTIS show a £25.50 fare but i cant select it.

It is likely that this is an Anytime Day Return from U1 London to Kelvedon. You're not returning the same day, so the system won't let you select it.

Super Off-Peak Returns (OPRs) appear to be available from Birmingham Stations to any railway station within the London Travelcard Zones 1-6, route + High Wycombe. I would consider buying an OPR from Birmingham to the last station in the zones at which your train stops, together with a return or two singles from there to Kelvedon. Two examples:

Birmingham Stations - Stratford London OPR route + High Wycombe £24.50
Stratford London - Kelvedon SVR £21.20
Total £45.70

Birmingham Stations - Romford OPR route + High Wycombe £24.50
Romford - Kelvedon: 2 Anytime Day Singles (SDS) @ 10.50 = £21.00
Total £45.50

Note that these OPR route High Wycombe tickets have time restrictions on Saturdays but not Sundays.

 

[redmen1892]

Marylebone is not a London Terminal on a permitted route between London Group and Kelvedon, so this ticket is not valid there. That is why the ticket vending sites are charging more: they want you to pay for your Underground journey.

Thanks John, out of interest what is the definition of a 'London group' station, i didn't realize that in this instance MYB wasn't a London Terminal.

Thanks also for the rail, fare advice, I'll look at those options.

Cheers

 

[Mojo]

Thanks John, out of interest what is the definition of a 'London group' station, i didn't realize that in this instance MYB wasn't a London Terminal.

Marylebone *is* a London Terminal, however it is not the terminal for journeys to Kelvedon; that would be Liverpool Street (and any other terminals mapped in the Routeing Guide).

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Marylebone *is* a London Terminal, however it is not the terminal for journeys to Kelvedon; that would be Liverpool Street (and any other terminals mapped in the Routeing Guide).

or St Pancras > Stratford International > Stratford > Kelvedon

Note: read my thread on SouthEastern before attempting this...

 

[John @ home]

Thanks John, out of interest what is the definition of a 'London group' station

"London Group" is defined in the National Routeing Guide. It is the set of stations which form the London Routeing Point, and allows you to calculate Permitted Routes for journeys to and from London. The current published list is:

LONDON GROUP

KINGS CROSS THAMESLINK
LONDON BLKFRIARS
LONDON BRIDGE
LONDON CANNON STREET
LONDON CHARING CROSS
LONDON EUSTON
LONDON FENCHURCH STREET
LONDON KINGS CROSS
LONDON LIVERPOOL STREET
LONDON MARYLEBONE
LONDON PADDINGTON
LONDON ST PANCRAS
LONDON VICTORIA
LONDON WATERLOO
LONDON WATERLOO EAST
MOORGATE UNDERGROUND
OLD STREET UNDERGROUND

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/group_stations.pdf

ATOC have not updated the list since the closure of Kings Cross Thameslink. There is a similar, but not identical, list of London Terminals stations, that is stations to and from which a ticket may be used if showing "London Terminals" as origin or destination provided the particular London Terminal is on a permitted route for that particular journey. It appears that ATOC no longer list the "London Terminals" stations in the public domain, but I believe the current list is

City Thameslink
London Blackfriars
London Bridge
London Cannon Street
London Charing Cross
London Euston
London Fenchurch Street
London Kings Cross
London Marylebone
London Liverpool Street
London Paddington
London St Pancras International
London Victoria
London Waterloo
London Waterloo East
Moorgate Underground
Old Street Underground
Vauxhall

There is no doubt that London Marylebone is both a member of "London Group" for routeing purposes and a "London Terminal". The difficulty arises because it is not on a permitted route for routeing purposes for a London Terminals - Kelvedon journey. ATOC used to publish this explanation:

A ticket from ‘Birmingham Stations’ to ‘LONDON TERMINALS’ route ‘ANY PERMITTED’ is valid to Euston, Paddington or Marylebone as these are all served on lines shown in the Routeing Guide as allowed with this ticket. It will not, however, be valid, for example, for onward travel to Liverpool Street or Charing Cross by London Underground, or to Waterloo/Victoria via Clapham Junction.

It would be helpful if this information was still made public.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Ok I think I've found a slightly cheaper (if more time consuming way of doing this)

An off-peak return from Birmingham (leaving from Snow Hill or Moor Street) to South Ruislip costs £19.50

Tube from South Ruislip to Stratford (direct train on Central line)
£2.40 each way (Oyster pay as you go)
*or £1.30 each way if you go via Shepherds Bush, Willesden Junction and Stratford on the Overground

(obviously this assumes you have an Oyster Card... If you don't the cash fare each way is a whopping £4.50, with no cheaper option so obviously not worth considering)

Return from Stratford to Kelvedon £15.00

Total £19.50 + (2 *£2.40 = £4.80) + £15.00 = £39.30
Or if you can bear the faff of changing at Shepherds Bush and Willesden Junction (avoiding zone one, and remembering to touch on the purple validator at Willesden Junction)
£19.50 + (2 * £1.30 = £2.60) + £15.00 = £37.10

Depending on how train connections work out, this might, just, be a feasible route!


AAAARGH. Just realised I didn't read your post properly, and that you were returning on Sunday, not Saturday. That pushes us the Stratford-Kelvedon ticket to £21.20. And also doesn't take account of the Overground between Stratford and Willesden J being closed for Engineering works. The replacement bus definitely isn't a reasonable option!

So. Scrap all of the above.

 

[yorkie]

An off-peak return from Birmingham (leaving from Snow Hill or Moor Street) to South Ruislip costs £19.50

Slight correction, it's a Super Off Peak Return priced at £19.50, the code for which is OPR it has these restrictions:

Restriction : PV
JOURNEYS TO/VIA LONDON
MARYLEBONE OR PADDINGTON

OUTWARD TRAVEL
MONDAY TO FRIDAY

By any train except those
timed to arrive at London
Terminals before 1345.

SATURDAYS AND BANK HOLIDAYS

By any train except those
timed to arrive at London
Terminals before 1345.

SUNDAYS

By any train

RETURN TRAVEL
MONDAY TO FRIDAY

By any train from London
Terminals timed to depart from
1100 to 1559, and from 2000.

SATURDAYS AND BANK HOLIDAYS

By any train from London
Terminals timed to depart from
1100.

SUNDAYS

By any train

The Off Peak Return (SVR) is less restrictive and costs £31.90.

If the OP does not want the hassle of getting an Oyster card and all that touching in and out, and the long tube ride, it may be better to get a Super Off Peak Return (OPR) from Birmingham to Stratford London for £24.50. This is £5 more, which works out at £2.50 each way, and would allow a quicker route of changing at Marylebone and then only using the tube from there to Stratford, this would save some time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Return from Stratford to Kelvedon £15.00

I was about to correct this when I saw...

AAAARGH. Just realised I didn't read your post properly, and that you were returning on Sunday, not Saturday. That pushes us the Stratford-Kelvedon ticket to £21.20. And also doesn't take account of the Overground between Stratford and Willesden J being closed for Engineering works. The replacement bus definitely isn't a reasonable option!

So. Scrap all of the above.

.... oops, at least you tried!

But splitting the ticket at Stratford is still a viable proposition. It saves £10 compared to the through SVR fare of £56.60 but the £56.60 ticket does have additional flexibility.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Yorkie, I have a great deal yet to learn in such matters as yet....

(I was genuinely shocked at the cost of the tickets from Brum to Kelvedon. It's really not that far, in the scheme of things)

 

[yorkie]

No worries, you'll get there

Yeah it's pretty shocking. In fact, on closer inspection, the +Any Permitted SVR is £55.80 and the +High Wycombe SVR is £56.60!

So there is a premium to use the slower High Wycombe route! This is bizarre, but not totally surprising to be honest.

I'd probably take the quicker route, especially as Euston to Liverpool St is easier than Marylebone to Liverpool St.

Furthermore, I believe that the best ticket to get may be Nuneaton to Kelvedon, at £52.80 SVR. This is routed +Any Permitted and is valid via Birmingham and includes travel on London Underground.

Nuneaton to London is permitted via Birmingham (maps TV+LM) indeed for Nuneaton to London there is a choice of Any Permitted or Route Direct.

 

[bb21]

Alternatively take advantage of London Midland's half-price offer to get it slightly cheaper.

Birmingham Stns (New Street) - London Terminals (Euston) Route Ldn Midland Only SVR £14.35 (Off-Peak Return)

There are direct trains on Saturday or change at Northampton. On Sunday you will have to change at Rugby. This ticket is discounted by 51% and is only available by booking through London Midland website and selecting 'Show other routes' and 'Valid on London Midland trains only'. You can book tickets a few hours before travel and collect at ticket machines.

Finsbury Park - Kelvedon Route +Any Permitted SVR £24.00 (Off-Peak Return)

This may involve a short walk from Euston to King's Cross St Pancras underground station. This ticket is definitely valid on the underground between King's Cross St Pancras and Liverpool Street, however I'm not sure if it allows you to travel from Euston underground instead. I'm sure someone will set the record straight for us. On the return journey iirc you may terminate your cross London transfer at any underground station so you can travel back to Euston and exit there legitimately.

To save the hassle, I would buy both tickets on London Midland website and collect from the station ticket machines tomorrow. There are no restrictions on timing on either Saturday or Sunday for both tickets.

Total: £38.35

 

[redmen1892]

Hi All,

Thanks for the advice and guidance, I booked via LM's site for the OPR from BMO to MYB and then 2 singles for the Finsbury Park -> Kel portion of the journey, unfortunately i booked it at 0845 sand when I got to BHM NS it didn't recognize my booking as it hadn't cleared on the system and I didn't realize that there was a 2 hour delay, so I ended up buying another set of tickets to cover BMO - RMF and then RMF-KEL as John@home kindly suggested. So I'll have to chase LM up for a refund, i dont know why they let you purchase tickets online if there is less than 2 hours before your journey commences.

One further question I have, on the return journey I didn't bother changing at Shenfield for the ROmford train and carried straight onto to LST as I wanted to get an earlier train at MYB, my ticket from KEL to RMF states any permitted route and as I had a ticket from RMF to BMO and the train passed but didn't stop at RMF i thought i'd chance it.

Was this permitted?, for future reference.

thanks again.

Jon

 

[MCR247]

No, when splitting tickets the train must stop unless one is a season ticket

 

[bb21]

... and then 2 singles for the Finsbury Park -> Kel portion of the journey ...

Just out of interest, why did you book two singles? Are they advance fares?

Avantix Traveller quotes me £19.10 CDS / £19.20 CDR / £24.00 CDR. Seems a bit steep by booking singles if not advance fares.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Of course given that you booked your tickets on the day of travel, of course they are not AP fares. Excuses. Doh!

 

[Mojo]

Just out of interest, why did you book two singles? Are they advance fares?

Avantix Traveller quotes me £19.10 CDS / £19.20 CDR / £24.00 CDR. Seems a bit steep by booking singles if not advance fares.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Of course given that you booked your tickets on the day of travel, of course they are not AP fares. Excuses. Doh!

Yes, a SVR at £24 would have been the best ticket to buy.