Birmingham New Street pollution

[londonmidland]

What about noise pollution?

It personally doesn’t affect me but I have noticed it can be quite loud downstairs at times. Especially with the extractor fans going off, announcements at full volume and Voyagers can sound quite loud too, surprisingly.

 

[AndrewE]

I don't personally understand why the Voyager engines have to chuck out so much crap if they are essentially a generator (DEMU) in layman terms. When the professional generators provide electricity at outdoor events, you don't usually see or smell a lot of pollution and there's barely any noise as they just hum away in the background. If the Voyagers work on a similar vein then why so much pollution? They should just resurrect the eVoyager idea and make it more cost effective. Is that an over-simplification?

I think that generators hired in for events have engines that are optimised for the generator speed and the rated load, which doesn't vary much. They are also built into a big sound-absorbing box. Trains (underfloor-engined ones anyway) can't afford this last luxury and I believe the extreme variation in the power output required means that designing fuel and exhaust systems to achieve the same standard is not practicable. The BR power unit acceptance test was nicknamed the engine-breaker because it was so onerous. Periods (10 to 30 mins?) of idling, then full power, half power, idling again etc.

 

[TwistedMentat]

New St is already electrified. Just requires pantographs and transformers on the trains.

Interestingly, German restaurant cars often have pantographs for when the train doesn't have a loco or when the loco doesn't do ETH.

So most of the work has already been done. Sweet.

Surely such a modification for hotel power levels can't be too difficult. However I don't expect it will change until government puts more regulation in place to force the station operator to meet pollution measurements. Meanwhile the passengers and especially the workers will bear the brunt of the harm.

 

[jyte]

I don't personally understand why the Voyager engines have to chuck out so much crap if they are essentially a generator (DEMU) in layman terms. When the professional generators provide electricity at outdoor events, you don't usually see or smell a lot of pollution and there's barely any noise as they just hum away in the background. If the Voyagers work on a similar vein then why so much pollution? They should just resurrect the eVoyager idea and make it more cost effective. Is that an over-simplification?

You'd be surprised (I imagine) at how little power even huge festival systems get through. The amplification power at a pretty big main stage can easily be 500kw yes, but that's still the max power output of a voyager per car.

Of course, lighting and catering use an absurd amount of power too. I think Glastonbury last year used about 50 mega watt hours (or 50,000,000 watt hours, enough to power a 60w light build for something like a hundred years) but over the duration of the festival that's still far below a megawatt continuous on average...of course there's efficiency losses (generators are inefficient as hell below about 50% load) but...trains need a hell of power, a lot more than people realise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'd be surprised (I imagine) at how little power even huge festival systems get through. The amplification power at a pretty big main stage can easily be 500kw yes, but that's still the max power output of a voyager per car.

Part of the issue is that they are old (built in the late 1990s/early 2000s) - more modern diesels have far cleaner emissions.

 

[Mikey C]

Part of the issue is that they are old (built in the late 1990s/early 2000s) - more modern diesels have far cleaner emissions.

That's not especially old, it's much the same age as the 170 Turbostars and 175/180 stock, and much newer than the Sprinters and even the 165/166s

 

[edwin_m]

That's not especially old, it's much the same age as the 170 Turbostars and 175/180 stock, and much newer than the Sprinters and even the 165/166s

The point here is that all these fleets pre-date the emissions regulations which apply to more recent designs. The Voyager also has a bigger engine than other classes that run through New Street, so is likely to produce more emissions.

 

[DavidGrain]

Before being bombed by Hitler, the original New St was like this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...0px-Birmingham_New_Street_station_in_1854.jpg

That was just the LNWR station, I don't think the Midland station next door has such a high roof. But that just shows the point I made in an earlier post in reply to someone who asked about steam days and pollution then. The 1960s rebuild used the space above the station for a shopping centre, car parks, an office block and even a tower block of flats, thus lowering the ceiling over the platforms and tracks. The ethos of the recent rebuild was that the station would be like an airport with passengers waiting in lounges until their train was called, the so called Red, Blue and Yellow lounges, but life is not like that, people see the platform number for their train and go straight to the platform.

 

[DavidGrain]

I think with New Street as designed in the 1960s you have to go back and think about the mindset of the people making the decisions. These were people who lived through the 1950s Modernisation Plan and the 1960 Beeching Era. They were probably still thinking of an all electric railway with diesel traction only an intermediate stage. Therefore low ceilings over the track and platforms did not matter

 

[edwin_m]

I think with New Street as designed in the 1960s you have to go back and think about the mindset of the people making the decisions. These were people who lived through the 1950s Modernisation Plan and the 1960 Beeching Era. They were probably still thinking of an all electric railway with diesel traction only an intermediate stage. Therefore low ceilings over the track and platforms did not matter

It wasn't too far off being all-electric when built. Until the Cross-City line was developed in the 70s there were relatively few DMUs as the main suburban routes from New Street (Coventry, Wolverhampton and Walsall) were part of the electrification. As someone mentioned the locomotives on the cross-country trians would have been on the open parts of the platform.

I wonder if one side-effect of the smoking ban has been to make us all more conscious of other forms of pollution?

 

[DavidGrain]

It wasn't too far off being all-electric when built. Until the Cross-City line was developed in the 70s there were relatively few DMUs as the main suburban routes from New Street (Coventry, Wolverhampton and Walsall) were part of the electrification. As someone mentioned the locomotives on the cross-country trians would have been on the open parts of the platform.

I wonder if one side-effect of the smoking ban has been to make us all more conscious of other forms of pollution?

Good point about the lack of the suburban services and the later development resulting in more DMUs. Actually a consequence of the rebuilding of New Street was that the Stourbridge line trains were diverted to New Street which gave an immediate increase in the number of DMUs. These have now gone back to their rightful home in Snow Hill. At least the redevelopments around Snow Hill station are adjacent and not above the station.

 

[Mikey C]

It wasn't too far off being all-electric when built. Until the Cross-City line was developed in the 70s there were relatively few DMUs as the main suburban routes from New Street (Coventry, Wolverhampton and Walsall) were part of the electrification. As someone mentioned the locomotives on the cross-country trians would have been on the open parts of the platform.

I wonder if one side-effect of the smoking ban has been to make us all more conscious of other forms of pollution?

It's more a realisation that it's not only visible pollution that's the problem

Previously, the worry with diesels was the very visible clouds of smoke created, now the concern is with the NOx and invisible particles being emitted by relatively recent engines.

 

[Chester1]

How practical would be for the Rosco to replace the Voyager engines? Its been done before with locos and power cars. A much cleaner engine would also significantly improve fuel efficiency. Both CrossCountry and VT units need a major internal overhaul, combined it could make them much more appealing to franchise bidders. A very small battery charged by regenerative braking and from the engines would be enough to resolve the New Street pollution problem.

 

[NotATrainspott]

How practical would be for the Rosco to replace the Voyager engines? Its been done before with locos and power cars. A much cleaner engine would also significantly improve fuel efficiency. Both CrossCountry and VT units need a major internal overhaul, combined it could make them much more appealing to franchise bidders. A very small battery charged by regenerative braking and from the engines would be enough to resolve the New Street pollution problem.

What would be left of the Voyagers after you replaced all of those components? That's the problem ROSCOs have found with major overhauls. Making a meaningful difference to their performance and capacity would require a lot of work on what would be 20 year old trains. What trains would CrossCountry use as cover during the works? Going for new rolling stock means you don't have to worry about these things, and what you get can be meaningfully better than what came before.

 

[tomuk]

The QSK19R fitted to the Voyagers is a current engine in the Cummins line up and is available now available in Euro IIIb and IIIa versions. You could probably fit the Euro IIIa version in place of the current engine during scheduled overhauls. This would give potentially 30% improvement in NOx emmisions.

The easiest thing would be to improve the ventilation at New Street. I think increasing the 'fresh' air introduced to Grand Central /Atrium such that there is a small positive pressure above the platforms would help to drive out fumes from the ends of the platforms. This would of course be supplemented by the existing 'noisy' extractors which kick in when fumes are bad.

Also I'm sure the fumes were a lot worse before they electrified the Cross City line. I recall an assortment of clapped out 'heritage' DMUs chugging away in the platforms. See at 3mins for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From memory of the Manchester Class 101s, heritage DMUs weren't *too* bad when idling, they just chucked out a *lot* of filth when they started off, but as they were moving will have dragged some of that with them. Voyagers seem to be particularly filthy when idling in contrast.

 

[edwin_m]

From memory of the Manchester Class 101s, heritage DMUs weren't *too* bad when idling, they just chucked out a *lot* of filth when they started off, but as they were moving will have dragged some of that with them. Voyagers seem to be particularly filthy when idling in contrast.

The Voyager isn't really idling, as it has to power the aircon and various other stuff. A heritage DMU had no auxiliary load to speak of so would just be ticking over when stood still. Not sure if the bigger relative change in power when it starts moving explains the clag from the DMU though.

 

[AndrewE]

The Voyager isn't really idling, as it has to power the aircon and various other stuff. A heritage DMU had no auxiliary load to speak of so would just be ticking over when stood still. Not sure if the bigger relative change in power when it starts moving explains the clag from the DMU though.

The first generation BR Diesels and DMUs were prone to accumulating unburnt fuel (and partial-combustion compounds like aldehydes) as a condensate in the cool exhaust pipes while they were idling. When they powered up the oil and other nasties were vapourised and emitted as a dense acrid white cloud.

 

[DavidGrain]

I saw an old Land Rover in the supermarket car park today with a sign on the back. 'Dirty Diesel - Black Smoke'. I can only think that the owner was proud of that. I have seen worse smoke from old coaches and lorries than I have from DMUs but have to say not recently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Voyager isn't really idling, as it has to power the aircon and various other stuff.

True. I wonder if, given that they have cross-feeding of power, it would be possible to modify the software to shut down all engines but one (cycled around like TPE Eco Mode to keep hours the same), and to run that engine at a higher speed to compensate? Large engines like that seem to chuck out a lot more filth when idling or at low speed than they do running at a speed closer to their optimal one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I saw an old Land Rover in the supermarket car park today with a sign on the back. 'Dirty Diesel - Black Smoke'. I can only think that the owner was proud of that. I have seen worse smoke from old coaches and lorries than I have from DMUs but have to say not recently.

Depending how old it might well be sarcastic, my newish (but old style) Defender is LEZ compliant, I forget which Euro rating it is though.

 

[edwin_m]

True. I wonder if, given that they have cross-feeding of power, it would be possible to modify the software to shut down all engines but one (cycled around like TPE Eco Mode to keep hours the same), and to run that engine at a higher speed to compensate? Large engines like that seem to chuck out a lot more filth when idling or at low speed than they do running at a speed closer to their optimal one.

Possibly, but then I guess it would be even more noisy standing next to the working engine.

 

[DPWH]

Two radical solutions:

1. Demolish the bloody shopping centre on top of the station. Who on earth in their right mind thought that was a good idea? A roof, made of glass would be nice to stop pax getting wet.

2. Keep the bloody shopping centre but build a new station in the industrial dump roughly between Curzon Street and Moor Street. Keep New Street as a terminus for trains from the west and a stop on the cross-city line.

 

[DavidGrain]

Two radical solutions:

Keep the bloody shopping centre but build a new station in the industrial dump roughly between Curzon Street and Moor Street. Keep New Street as a terminus for trains from the west and a stop on the cross-city line.

This is just where the HS2 station will be built. I know I keep on about this but the HS2 station will be in Moor Street roughly at right angles to the existing Moor Street Station. People keep calling it Curzon Street because Andrew Adonis gave it that name.

 

[The Planner]

Two radical solutions:

1. Demolish the bloody shopping centre on top of the station. Who on earth in their right mind thought that was a good idea? A roof, made of glass would be nice to stop pax getting wet.

2. Keep the bloody shopping centre but build a new station in the industrial dump roughly between Curzon Street and Moor Street. Keep New Street as a terminus for trains from the west and a stop on the cross-city line.

Not sure what either of those would solve to be honest...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure what either of those would solve to be honest...

I don't think there's an issue with the station as it is now. I actually think it is now quite nice and have gone from avoiding changing there to deliberately breaking journeys for food etc / changing there.

It just needs getting the wires up and getting rid of the DMUs.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It just needs getting the wires up and getting rid of the DMUs.

10/10 sir

 

[Andy25]

10/10 sir

Wires arent necessarily the answer, alternative clean solutions like hydrogen or battery could have the same benefit.

I've also hear Bombardier are considering adding batteries to Voyagers so that they can switch off the diesel while in the vicinity of stations.

 

[AndrewE]

Wires arent necessarily the answer, alternative clean solutions like hydrogen or battery could have the same benefit.

The problem is energy density, as has been mentioned here quite often. Hydrocarbon fuels are far better for miles per gram than any of the alternatives.

I've also hear Bombardier are considering adding batteries to Voyagers so that they can switch off the diesel while in the vicinity of stations.

Hooray!

 

[Andy25]

The problem is energy density, as has been mentioned here quite often. Hydrocarbon fuels are far better for miles per gram than any of the alternatives.Hooray!

tonight
It all depends on the diagrams I guess, as long as the range is sufficient for the job it doesn't matter that it's less than diesel. The Alstom iLint has a range of 1000km but not sure what range they would need for those Birmingham routes.