Birmingham to Liverpool - Worthy of Intercity Trains?

[Masbroughlad]

In the days when XC served Liverpool (and BR previously), it used to have an Intercity standard of service to Birmingham (and beyond).

I don't really think 350s with all standard class and no catering are suitable for a a journey between the 2nd city of the UK and another very large city. It's even worse when a 350 with 3 plus 2 seating is used.

I wonder if GBR will up the service standards and make the route of Intercity spec going forwards. Or an OAO from Liverpool, via Birmingham to the South West or South East maybe?

Manchester has Intercity services to Birmingham with reasonable first class and 'catering'. I think Liverpool should have a comparable service? And I don't mean dumb down Manchester to Birmingham to similar trains!

 

[Halifaxlad]

Arn't the 350s with the 3+2 seating the 350/2s which are being replaced ?

 

[Masbroughlad]

Not sure. They seem to be used on it - I wasn't sure it was when the 2 + 2 seating versions were unavailable or if diagrammed?

 

[Topological]

Given the 350/2s are going off lease there wont be any 3+2 units to run services soon.

In an ideal world there would be a wealth of stock similar to the TfW 197s (electrical version, bimode version etc.) built by a manufacturer without any reliability issues. The 196 offers the speedier boarding of doors at 1/3rds but has a sufficiently comfortable interior for long journeys (as someone who uses them regularly for such). Ordering such new trains would then mean better accommodation on the Liverpool route.

However, I would prefer to see the Manchester to Birmingham go over to a similar operation to the Liverpool, rather than vice versa, because there is already too much use of the "intercity' voyagers on electrified lines. Subject to Birmingham to the South West, and Birmingham to Didcot, going under the wires there is only going to be more use of diesel under wires if Liverpool also got "intercity".

We have to recognise that these trains may run between big cities, but they offer a lot of intermediate journeys and are used heavily for such.

 

[Djgr]

The main problem with many inter city routes is the incessant lobbying to stop at all the shacks enroute, thereby defeating their very purpose.

 

[JonathanH]

In the days when XC served Liverpool (and BR previously), it used to have an Intercity standard of service to Birmingham (and beyond).

Once every three hours or so - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/cross-country-chat-1987-2000.252989/page-2#post-6363416

How much better is the Manchester to Birmingham service offered by CrossCountry than the Liverpool to Birmingham service offered by London Northwestern Railway?

They both get passengers where they need to get to.

As I wrote before, there really is a lot of prejudice about Birmingham to Liverpool, particularly given CrossCountry looks like it is going to be run solely with Voyagers (and 170s) for the short to medium term. If CrossCountry had had four extra Voyagers and run them between Birmingham and Liverpool for the last 20 years on an hourly frequency I am not convinced people would be happy with that.

Something needs to serve Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge, and the demand and number of settlements solely between Crewe and Liverpool doesn't justify a dedicated stopper like it does between Crewe and Manchester. Long ago, Hartford used to be a stop in Intercity services.

 

[alex17595]

They are reinstating a half hourly service for most of the day from December. Although they are adding Coseley + Mossley hill into the 'faster' services. No idea why.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are reinstating a half hourly service for most of the day from December. Although they are adding Coseley + Mossley hill into the 'faster' services. No idea why.

These services are also going to get the 730/2s, which are 2+2 seated and have more capacity than 350/2s. I'd have that over an overcrowded short Voyager once an hour (it wouldn't be more). XC has no prestige whatsoever - it's awful.

 

[Bevan Price]

They are reinstating a half hourly service for most of the day from December. Although they are adding Coseley + Mossley hill into the 'faster' services. No idea why.

Alternate services used to call at Coseley (pre-Covid).

Presumably - when they eventually enter service - most (or all) Birmingham / Liverpool services will be worked by the new 5 coach Class 730 units.

 

[dk1]

I don’t personally think so. Make it all day half-hourly and that will more than be enough.

 

[irish_rail]

What Liverpool needs is connectivity to other parts of the UK. It has a huge tourist draw amongst the UK population , especially for weekend breaks, far more so than Manchester for example. If any city has a claim to being on the XC network that isn't currently, I'd argue its Liverpool. At present it's connected well to London and to northern cities, but zero connections to anywhere else south of Birmingham.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Maybe with a bit of forward thinking, there could be fast and semi-fast services. Fast, INTERCITY service using 800 class and slower, semi-fasts using 350 type train.

IMHO, Intercity trains should provide a good level of speed, comfort and service between major cities in the UK.

If you wanted to travel between the second largest city, Birmingham, and Liverpool direct in first class, with refreshments, you can't! That's poor really.

That TOC has slowly eroded facilities - withdraw catering, withdraw first class.

It's the service vs profit again. And in today's railways, dumb it down, cram them in and hike the prices, wins.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's the need for refreshments on a trip that short? Get an M&S and a coffee and take it on.

 

[JonathanH]

If you wanted to travel between the second largest city, Birmingham, and Liverpool direct in first class, with refreshments, you can't! That's poor really.

The refreshments will only have been removed because they weren't remunerative. It is less than a 90 minute journey. How many people actually care about on train refreshments given station facilities are better than they used to be? Also, how many people travel first class?

It is almost as if the standard class experience is dependent on facilities such a passenger doesn't use. What do 'normal' passengers between Birmingham and Liverpool want other than an efficient electric service they can rely on?

It's the service vs profit again. And in today's railways, dumb it down, cram them in and hike the prices, wins.

The fares between Birmingham and Liverpool are lower than they would be if CrossCountry was the primary operator.

Maybe with a bit of forward thinking, there could be fast and semi-fast services. Fast, INTERCITY service using 800 class and slower, semi-fasts using 350 type train.

That translates to effectively one train an hour though, because putting all the stops in the 350 type train and running the other train fast means that at one end they catch each other up.

 

[Topological]

Does anyone have the number of first-class tickets sold between Manchester and Birmingham? Ignore advances as they are there to fill capacity, and ideally some allowance should be made for people buying first-class because they expect standard to be rammed full.

Given Avanti are reducing their first class offerings, it seems unlikely that there is a big demand for Liverpool to Birmingham.

It always feels like people are just desperate for Intercity to everywhere, when the majority of routes in the UK work more efficiently serving communities en route with stock designed for minimised dwells.

 

[Masbroughlad]

What's the need for refreshments on a trip that short? Get an M&S and a coffee and take it on.

If there's no need, you don't need to get any from anywhere.

Consumer choice maybe? Ease? Service? Heaven forbid, a service could be provided! Or people travelling South of Birmingham to Liverpool.

I grew up in times when catering on trains was a service, not just to make money.

 

[A S Leib]

I think one reason why Manchester has an intercity service to Birmingham and Liverpool doesn't is that Stoke has far more demand than Crewe. Stoke-on-Trent – Manchester's 322,000 journeys per year, and to Birmingham 136,000 (with 3 non-XC tph to Manchester and no direct non-XC services to Birmingham, with the LNR cut back to Stafford). Crewe – Liverpool's 110,000 and Crewe – Birmingham's 40,000, both flows also being served by hourly Avanti trains.

Would a regular Birmingham – Crewe – Chester service help? Penkridge is the only station north of Wolverhampton on that route which doesn't have other intercity services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If there's no need, you don't need to get any from anywhere.

Consumer choice maybe? Ease? Service? Heaven forbid, a service could be provided! Or people travelling South of Birmingham to Liverpool.

I grew up in times when catering on trains was a service, not just to make money.

The main thing that I think has driven the move away from on-train catering is coffee. Coffee is by far the biggest seller for those wishing to travel on trains, and we've moved from accepting instant muck in a plastic or polystyrene cup to insisting on quality espresso based drinks over the past 20 years. There are options like filter cups, but people not buying hot drinks on board because better quality ones can be bought before boarding on journeys too short to require more than one has completely killed the market, alongside the minimum wage which has made the staff cost of someone just selling the odd Mars bar too expensive.

Probably worth a thread in its own right: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...tering-no-longer-viable-in-most-cases.276161/

 

[yorksrob]

Some sort of 2+2 seated EMU with a buffet trolley would be fine for such a route IMO.

 

[cle]

Excuse for Manchester grievances, or it always goes that way.

As mentioned, the Manchester service, if self contained - should be similar to the Liverpool EMUs. Both fairly semi fast in stopping patterns / journey time.

But the end to end Liverpool to Birmingham demand is far lower. Tourism isn’t that great really, nor would it be why services are timetabled. The economy just isn’t that large beyond Merseyside / the NW and connections to London.

Current service is good, better at 2tph and longer trains, than a 4tpd diesel service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would a regular Birmingham – Crewe – Chester service help? Penkridge is the only station north of Wolverhampton on that route which doesn't have other intercity services.

That used to exist (2-hourly Birmingham-Crewe-Chester-Holyhead, last run in 2002 with 175s), but the Wales & Borders franchise (ATW and now TfW) diverted it onto the longer and slower route via Shrewsbury in 2004, leaving a Crewe-Chester shuttle.
There is still a positioning early/late Avanti service Birmingham-Holyhead via Crewe with 805s (used to be Voyagers).

 

[urbophile]

The main thing that I think has driven the move away from on-train catering is coffee. Coffee is by far the biggest seller for those wishing to travel on trains, and we've moved from accepting instant muck in a plastic or polystyrene cup to insisting on quality espresso based drinks over the past 20 years. There are options like filter cups, but people not buying hot drinks on board because better quality ones can be bought before boarding on journeys too short to require more than one has completely killed the market, alongside the minimum wage which has made the staff cost of someone just selling the odd Mars bar too expensive.

Probably worth a thread in its own right: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...tering-no-longer-viable-in-most-cases.276161/

Interesting! Despite being a coffee fanatic, that had never occurred to me as a reason. Since mini-trikes with proper espresso machines pop up in all sorts of places these days, it can't be impossible to mount such a thing on a trolley that is capable of being pushed through a train corridor. Perhaps the biggest problem though is overcrowding: on many journeys of this type (see other threads) gangways are blocked by luggage or standing passengers too often to make a trolley service viable.

 

[6Gman]

Excuse for Manchester grievances, or it always goes that way.

As mentioned, the Manchester service, if self contained - should be similar to the Liverpool EMUs. Both fairly semi fast in stopping patterns / journey time.

But the end to end Liverpool to Birmingham demand is far lower. Tourism isn’t that great really, nor would it be why services are timetabled. The economy just isn’t that large beyond Merseyside / the NW and connections to London.

Current service is good, better at 2tph and longer trains, than a 4tpd diesel service.

As a fairly frequent user of the service a 5-car 2+2 seated half-hourly service seems ideal!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I wonder if an AC class 444 would have been good for the WCML, which I just about think qualifies as 'Intercity'. It has a buffet car too, technically. I seem to recall reading one of the previous bids for the original WCML franchise would have used class 444s instead of Pendos.

 

[HSTEd]

From the perspective of a generic standard class passenger, does a 2+2 EMU really offer any worse of an experience than an "Intercity" Train?

 

[stevieinselby]

Interesting! Despite being a coffee fanatic, that had never occurred to me as a reason. Since mini-trikes with proper espresso machines pop up in all sorts of places these days, it can't be impossible to mount such a thing on a trolley that is capable of being pushed through a train corridor. Perhaps the biggest problem though is overcrowding: on many journeys of this type (see other threads) gangways are blocked by luggage or standing passengers too often to make a trolley service viable.

I would guess speed would be the problem. Those fancy coffee machines are slow, and a catering trolley can't spend that long serving each customer.

 

[gg1]

From the perspective of a generic standard class passenger, does a 2+2 EMU really offer any worse of an experience than an "Intercity" Train?

Depends on the trains, if it's a choice between a Voyager and 2+2 350 I'd choose a 350 every time, as I did when I used to travel semi-regularly from Brum to Manchester pre-Covid. At the time there was the option of either the direct Voyager or a 350 to Crewe followed by a change to a Pendolino. The extra 10-15 minutes on my journey was worth it for the improved comfort.

 

[yorksrob]

I would guess speed would be the problem. Those fancy coffee machines are slow, and a catering trolley can't spend that long serving each customer.

Surely a hot water urn and instant would be more suitable/likely ?

 

[HSTEd]

Surely a hot water urn and instant would be more suitable/likely ?

The problem with such a solution is that it won't be particularly attractive to the customer base.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From the perspective of a generic standard class passenger, does a 2+2 EMU really offer any worse of an experience than an "Intercity" Train?

Aside from First Class I'd say a 2+2 seated 350 is far better than the Voyager in every way, personally. With the original /4 interior with the 2+1 layout that was better in first class, too.