• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Cross-Country chat (1987-2000)

Status
Not open for further replies.

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
8,408
Just past Willesden West London Junction on the line towards Kensington Olympia, there was (is?) a level crossing and engine release/run-round facilities.
See https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs June 23/London North Western (South) Sectional Appendix June 2023.pdf
Level Crossing still there!

Thanks for that.

Another feature was the introduction of a Clapham Junction stop on the Brighton services, which meant that they were presumably a convenient way to reach the northwest from much of SW and S London and Surrey. With that in mind I'm surprised they didn't load better than they did.

That said, they were not well publicised on the lines out of Waterloo, for example, so many were doubtless unaware of them.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
17,055
Location
Glasgow
Thanks for that, yes I remember the 1984 Manchester and Liverpool HST services, as discussed in another thread. Interesting to hear they come and go.

Interesting that there were a lot of changes in 1987 as that's the first year I don't really recall. That said, the 1986 pattern was significantly different to 1984, e.g IIRC it was as follows:

1984 northbound Reading approx times, accurate in some cases; 1985 largely unchanged

0830 Poole-Manchester
0941 Poole-Glasgow/Edinburgh Wessex Scot
1045 Brighton-Manchester
1137 Poole-Newcastle
1337 Poole-Manchester
1440 Brighton-Manchester
1545 Portsmouth-York
1637 Poole-Liverpool

1986:

0830 Poole-Manchester/Liverpool (?) (unchanged)
0940 Portsmouth-Liverpool (the famous 1M05 reintroduced and diverted to Liverpool after 2 years absence except Summer Saturdays)
1035 Poole-Glasgow/Edinburgh Wessex Scot (delayed 1 hour)
1140 untimetabled Reading-Birmingham which (IIRC) I observed at Reading on two separate occasions, Tyseley DMU, the nature of this service has been a long-standing mystery even these forums have been unable to solve ;)
1236 Poole-Newcastle (delayed 1 hour)
1349 Paddington-Liverpool (didn't exist in 1984)
1434 Portsmouth-Manchester (didn't exist in 1984, the best ever year under BR for Portsmouth, 2 northbounds per day)
1635 Poole-Liverpool (unchanged)

The big 1986 changes were, it appears, mostly as a result of diverting the Brightons up the WCML with loco change at Willesden (?)

Getting further into detail on XC history (1979-1986), from my piecing together of XC timetables from various sources (marshalling books on the BR Coaching Stock groups.io group, old timetables on Timetable World, own memory, and this forum!), certain eras stand out on the Reading axis:

1979-81: relatively few changes during these three years. Close to perfect clockface 2-hourly New St-Manchester (odd hour xx55) and Liverpool (even hour xx55). Additional Manchesters on top of that (around xx10 odd hours). Brightons introduced. Some Paddington-Birmingham services extended to the northwest. Mostly clockface xx50 out of Paddington, mostly alternating between Birmingham (and beyond) and Worcester. Additional Poole-Manchester. Most Birmingham-NW services, however, to and from the SW and S Wales.

1982: significant changes, perhaps a knock-on from the withdrawal of direct Paddington-Worcester services with more Paddington-Birminghams, still mostly xx50 out of Paddington but not the same hours as the preceding years. Best ever Reading-Birmingham service from 1979-86 (slightly better than hourly) with a mix of Paddingtons, Pooles, Brightons and the brand new 1105 Portsmouth-Manchester. Poole-Newcastle moved two hours earlier. Birmingham-NW frequency largely maintained with some alterations and some loss of perfect clockface. Full timetable available on Timetable World.

1983: more significant changes. introduction of clockface xx37 Reading-New Street most hours, but now with a gap at 1237. Some significant Birmingham-Manchester reductions, with some two-hour gaps. Long gap between the 1300 and 1610 contrasts with a basically hourly service for the previous 4 years. Reduction in Paddington XC services, with just 4 per day (0630, 0730, 1337 and 2018 from Reading). The famous 1M05 now forms the Portsmouth-Manchester (departing 0805). Brighton and Poole times unchanged.

1984: more significant changes, again. Loss of clockface from New Street, which has been discussed in a recent thread and was apparently down to difficulties maintaining tight connections at New Street. Paddingtons further reduced, with just the two morning services. 1M05 now becomes an 0805 Portsmouth-Poole via Reading. Introduction of Portsmouth-York afternoon service (and southbound morning service) and southbound Liverpool-Portsmouth, so Portsmouth gets two southbound XCs for the first time. Introduction of the famous "Wessex Scot", which would last right up to Operation Princess.

1985: little change, but a number of services become diesel-hauled throughout, without the loco change at New Street. I wonder if this was related to transfer of some 86s to Liverpool St-Norwich?

1986: significant changes again (see above) driven largely by Brighton diversions up the WCML, I believe.

So yes, very frequent changes year-on-year during this period, with only the 1979 and 1984 timetables lasting basically more than a year (with tweaks).

If anyone can provide similar summaries for the few years or so after that without too much effort, it would be interesting to see!

A fair amount of stability was, however, provided during the immediate pre-Virgin and early Virgin years, with tweaks and additions but with the basic structure of services through Reading, including stock (47-hauled or HST, loco change at New Street or not) largely unchanged year on year.
Well, going through all the tables would take some time.

What you may find interesting though is that in the major improvements of the 1989 timetable, the regular interval hourly Manchester - Birmingham service returns.

Hourly from Manchester at XX:18, returning off Birmingham at XX:29.

In fact, as well as reintroducing the hourly frequency on the Euston - Manchester service (Liverpool had to wait a bit longer), the XC pattern at New Street went back to a much more regular interval on all routes. (A few departures remained slightly off pattern, mainly in the peaks).

For example from Birmingham, all the Reading and Poole departures are at XX:06, most other southbound XC departures are on XX:00 or XX:15 slots.

Going north mostly XX:00 slots (though sometimes shifted by as much as 10 mins) are for York or Newcastle, the Manchester slots as mentioned being XX:29 (though three departures are at XX:33 - 0933, 1133 and 1333).
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
8,408
Well, going through all the tables would take some time.
No worries! It was very much an "if and only if" request, in the same way that I wrote the above in about 10 mins based off memory and recent research.
What you may find interesting though is that in the major improvements of the 1989 timetable, the regular interval hourly Manchester - Birmingham service returns.

Hourly from Manchester at XX:18, returning off Birmingham at XX:29.

In fact, as well as reintroducing the hourly frequency on the Euston - Manchester service (Liverpool had to wait a bit longer), the XC pattern at New Street went back to a much more regular interval on all routes. (A few departures remained slightly off pattern, mainly in the peaks).

For example from Birmingham, all the Reading and Poole departures are at XX:06, most other southbound XC departures are on XX:00 or XX:15 slots.

Going north mostly XX:00 slots (though sometimes shifted by as much as 10 mins) are for York or Newcastle, the Manchester slots as mentioned being XX:29 (though three departures are at XX:33 - 0933, 1133 and 1333).

Very interesting, thanks, This pattern (xx18 Manchester, xx06 Reading from Birmingham) was the pattern still prevalent in 1997 and into the new millennium, so interesting to learn that pattern was introduced as long ago as 1989. I can't remember the Manchester departure times from Birmingham, though.

If you do have the full Reading northbound departures and New Street Reading-bound departures for 1989 that would be interesting to see, but only if it's something you can do very quickly :)
 
Last edited:

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
17,055
Location
Glasgow
No worries! It was very much an "if and only if" request, in the same way that I wrote the above in about 10 mins based off memory and recent research.


Very interesting, thanks, This pattern (xx18 Manchester, xx06 Reading from Birmingham) was the pattern still prevalent in 1997 and into the new millennium, so interesting to learn that pattern was introduced as long ago as 1989. I can't remember the Manchester departure times from Birmingham, though.

If you do have the full Reading northbound departures and New Street Reading-bound departures for 1989 that would be interesting to see, but only if it's something you can do very quickly :)
Manchester from Birmingham was XX:35 by 1993, I don't have anything for the rest of the 1990s until Winter 1999/2000.

I'll try, anyway!


Reading towards New Street:
0632 (Paddington to Edinburgh via Manchester)
0752 (Paddington to Wolverhampton)
0842 (Poole to Manchester)
0946 (Paddington to Manchester)
1033 ('The Sussex Scot' Brighton to Glasgow & Edinburgh)
1100 ('The Northumbrian' Poole to Newcastle)
1247 ('The Wessex Scot' Poole to Glasgow & Edinburgh)
1334 (Reading to Manchester)
1442 (Poole to Liverpool)
1603 (Brighton to Manchester)
1644 FO (Reading to Leeds)
1744 (Poole to Manchester)
1916 (Poole to Manchester)
1954 (Folkestone Cen. to Manchester)
2235 (Poole to Glasgow & Edinburgh sleeper)

In spite of the untidy times at Reading, at Poole departures were on tidy XX:40 slots (0640, 1040, 1240, 1540) except the 0900 ('The Northumbrian' for Newcastle), 1710 (for Manchester) and the sleeper at 2035.


New Street towards Reading:
0611 (Wolverhampton to Paddington)
0706 (Wolverhampton to Poole)
0806 (Manchester to Folkestone Cen.)
0906 (Manchester to Reading)
1006 (Manchester to Poole)
1106 (Birmingham to Reading)
1213 ('The Northumbrian' Newcastle to Poole)
1306 ('The Wessex Scot' Edinburgh & Glasgow to Poole)
1406 (Manchester Piccadilly to Birmingham Int'l)
1506 (Manchester to Poole)
1606 ('The Sussex Scot' Edinburgh & Glasgow to Brighton)
1703 (Manchester to Paddington)
1742 (Liverpool to Poole)
1906 (Manchester to Paddington)
2111 (Edinburgh to Paddington via Manchester)
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
21,247
In the early/mid 80s, IC ran all, or almost all, services from Birmingham-Liverpool; by the late 90s Central Trains ran most of the services with only occasional Virgin XC services. So presumably some time between around 1987-95, most of the Birmingham-Liverpool services were transferred from IC to RR; the timescale and rationale for this is what I was enquiring about.
A 'transfer' of services from IC to RR never happened as such on the Liverpool to Birmingham route, other than the one induced by the end of Operation Princess, which was in the 2000s.

Looking at various timetables from 1989 to 1996, a few things happened.
* The dedicated Crewe to Liverpool stopper was gradually reduced from hourly, in 1989, to a less frequent service
* The trains to Cardiff Central were focussed on Manchester, rather than alternating between Liverpool and Manchester, although two remained throughout this period.
* Regional Railways responsibility for Liverpool to Crewe appears to have moved from North West to Wales & West to Central during the period
* Hartford gradually lost its Intercity calls
* The service at Winsford became almost non-existant
* Cross Country gradually reduced its services at Liverpool, but it wasn't until 1994 that Regional Railways services ran through to Birmingham.

The following sets out various timetable patterns from selected timetables between 1989 and 1996. In the following, EDG = Edge Hill, MSH = Mossley Hill, WSA = West Allerton, ALE = Allerton, DIT = Ditton, RUN = Runcorn, ACB = Acton Bridge, HTF = Hartford, WSF = Winsford, CRE = Crewe. Trains shown only calling at Runcorn were non-stop at Crewe.

Summer 1989 weekday departures from Liverpool towards Runcorn.

Key features are XC departures at 0757, 1025, 1320, 1550 and 1732, Cardiff departures (via Shrewsbury) at 0725, 0915, 1113, 1312, 1517, 1715 and 1915, and the frequent stopping service. At this time, off-peak services on the CLC route ran solely between Hunts Cross and Warrington Central.

0605London EustonRUNCRE
0635CreweEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
0710London EustonRUN
0725Cardiff CentralRUNHTFCRE
0735CreweEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
0757Birmingham InternationalRUNHTFCRE
0825London EustonRUNHTFCRE
0846CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
0915Cardiff CentralRUNHTFCRE
0940London EustonRUNHTF
0946CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1025PlymouthRUNHTFCRE
1056RuncornEDGMSHWSAALERUN
1110London EustonRUN
1113Cardiff CentralRUNHTFWSFCRE
1156CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1240London EustonRUN
1256CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1312Cardiff CentralRUNCRE
1320PlymouthRUNHTFCRE
1356AllertonEDGMSHWSAALE
1410London EustonRUN
1436CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1517Cardiff CentralRUNCRE
1520CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1545London EustonRUN
1550PooleRUNHTFCRE
1637CreweEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1710London EustonRUN
1715Cardiff CentralMSHWSARUNHTF
1732Birmingham InternationalRUNHTFCRE
1745CreweEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1840London EustonRUNCRE
1856CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1915Cardiff CentralRUNHTFCRE
2000CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNHTFWSFCRE
2010London EustonRUNCRE
2100CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
2155CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNHTFWSFCRE
2255CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNHTFWSFCRE

By Summer 1991, the number of stopping services had been reduced particularly in the middle of the day, with some changes to the Cross Country timings, and indeed an increase in the number of these services. The service to London Euston had moved much closer to being hourly all day. There were, by now, only two trains to Cardiff, at 0914, and 1714.

0600London EustonRUNCRE
0615CreweEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
0640Dover Western DocksRUNCRE
0710London EustonRUN
0741CreweEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
0745Birmingham InternationalRUNHTFCRE
0810London EustonRUN
0840Birmingham New StreetRUNCRE
0847CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
0910London EustonRUN
0914Cardiff CentralRUNHTFCRE
1010London EustonRUN
1015PlymouthRUNHTFCRE
1035CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1110London EustonRUNCRE
1146CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1210London EustonRUN
1310London EustonRUNCRE
1320Birmingham New StreetRUNCRE
1334CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1410London EustonRUNCRE
1434CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1510London EustonRUNHTF
1610London EustonRUN
1614London PaddingtonRUNCRE
1618CreweEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1710London EustonRUN
1714Cardiff CentralMSHWSAALERUNHTFCRE
1740PooleRUNHTFCRE
1745CreweEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1840London EustonRUNCRE
1907CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
2010London EustonRUNCRE
2135CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNHTFWSFCRE
2308CreweEDGMSHWSAALERUNHTFWSFCRE

The Summer 1992 timetable is very similar, but with the 1320 XC departure moved to 1226, and the 1614 moved to 1546 terminating at Birmingham New Street, and some changes to the late evening departures.

Summer 1993 sees some interesting changes, with further cuts in the number of stopping services, and their link to the Shrewsbury line. There were fewer stopping train calls at Edge Hill and West Allerton. By this point, the lunchtime XC departure had gone, as well as the morning train to Dover. Of interest is that the 1226 from Liverpool ran to Swansea via the Heart of Wales line.

0600London EustonRUNCRE
0609CreweEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
0710London EustonRUNCRE
0723ShrewsburyEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
0740London EustonRUN
0745Birmingham InternationalRUNHTFCRE
0840Birmingham New StreetRUNCRE
0845London EustonRUNCRE
0926Cardiff CentralMSHRUNHTFWSFCRE
0945London EustonRUNCRE
0956CreweMSHALERUNHTFCRE
1018PlymouthRUNHTFCRE
1034CreweMSHRUNHTFWSFCRE
1045London EustonRUNCRE
1126CreweMSHRUNACBHTFCRE
1145London EustonRUNCRE
1226SwanseaMSHALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1245London EustonRUNCRE
1345London EustonRUNCRE
1356CreweMSHALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1445London EustonRUNCRE
1510CreweMSHRUNHTFCRE
1545London EustonRUN
1608PooleRUNCRE
1626CreweEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1645London EustonRUNCRE
1714Cardiff CentralMSHRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1745London EustonRUNHTFCRE
1818Birmingham New StreetRUNCRE
1841CreweEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1910London EustonRUNCRE
2010London EustonRUNCRE
2041CreweMSHALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
2211ShrewsburyMSHALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
2326HolyheadEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE

The extension of services to Shrewsbury was short lived, as by Winter 1993/1994, these through services had gone. There were further cuts in the stopping service as a result, although the Cross Country service was largely unchanged. Ditton closed at the end of this timetable period.
0508CreweCRE
0600London EustonRUNCRE
0609CreweEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
0710London EustonRUNCRE
0723CreweEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
0740London EustonRUN
0745Birmingham InternationalRUNHTFCRE
0840Birmingham New StreetRUNCRE
0845London EustonRUNCRE
0926Cardiff CentralMSHRUNHTFWSFCRE
0945London EustonRUNCRE
0956CreweMSHALERUNACBHTFCRE
1018PlymouthRUNHTFCRE
1026CreweMSHRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1045London EustonRUNCRE
1145London EustonRUNCRE
1226CreweMSHALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1245London EustonRUNCRE
1345London EustonRUNCRE
1356CreweMSHALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1445London EustonRUNCRE
1545London EustonRUN
1608PooleRUNCRE
1626CreweEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1645London EustonRUNCRE
1714Cardiff CentralMSHRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1745London EustonRUNHTFCRE
1818Birmingham New StreetRUNCRE
1841CreweEDGMSHWSAALEDITRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1910London EustonRUNCRE
2010London EustonRUNCRE
2041CreweMSHALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
2211CreweMSHALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE
2326HolyheadEDGMSHWSAALERUNACBHTFWSFCRE

The Winter 1994/1995 timetable shows that, by this point, the responsibility for Regional Railways services between Liverpool and Crewe had passed to the Central operation, with through services to Birmingham New Street. This also saw two fewer Cross Country departures. Also of note is that very few services stopped between Liverpool and Runcorn in this period.

0600London EustonRUNCRE
0637Birmingham New StreetMSHRUNHTFCRE
0710London EustonRUNCRE
0727Birmingham New StreetMSHRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
0745London EustonRUN
0810Birmingham InternationalRUNHTFCRE
0845London EustonRUNCRE
0910PlymouthRUNHTFCRE
0918Cardiff CentralRUNHTFCRE
0925CreweMSHRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
0945London EustonRUNCRE
0948Birmingham New StreetRUNHTFCRE
1045London EustonRUNCRE
1048Birmingham New StreetRUNHTFCRE
1145London EustonRUNCRE
1148Birmingham New StreetRUNWSFCRE
1245London EustonRUNCRE
1248Birmingham New StreetRUNHTFCRE
1345London EustonRUNCRE
1348Birmingham New StreetRUNCRE
1445London EustonRUNCRE
1448CreweRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1510PooleRUNCRE
1545London EustonRUN
1548Birmingham New StreetMSHRUNHTFCRE
1645London EustonRUNCRE
1648Birmingham New StreetMSHRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1714Cardiff CentralMSHRUNHTFCRE
1745London EustonRUNCRE
1748Birmingham New StreetRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1854Birmingham New StreetRUNHTFWSFCRE
1945London EustonRUNCRE
2018Birmingham New StreetRUNHTFCRE
2148Birmingham New StreetRUNHTFWSFCRE
2318Birmingham New StreetRUNACBHTFWSFCRE

By Summer 1996, there had been no further retrenchment of the Cross Country service, although the Regional Railways Birmingham trains were now picking up more stops between Liverpool and Crewe, and Wales & West ran their second service at lunchtime, diverting the 5pm departure to Manchester. Later this 1318 ran via the Marches with a second portion for Portsmouth, once Wales & West had taken 158843 on lease.
0545London EustonRUNCRE
0629Birmingham New StreetMSHRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
0645London EustonRUNCRE
0729Birmingham New StreetMSHRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
0745London EustonRUNCRE
0810Birmingham InternationalRUNHTFCRE
0845London EustonRUNCRE
0910PlymouthRUNCRE
0918Cardiff CentralRUNHTFCRE
0945London EustonRUNCRE
0949Birmingham New StreetRUNHTFWSFCRE
1045London EustonRUNCRE
1049Birmingham New StreetRUNHTFCRE
1145London EustonRUNCRE
1149Birmingham New StreetRUNHTFWSFCRE
1245London EustonRUNCRE
1249Birmingham New StreetRUNHTFCRE
1318Cardiff CentralRUNHTFCRE
1345London EustonRUNCRE
1349Birmingham New StreetRUNHTFWSFCRE
1445London EustonRUNCRE
1449Birmingham New StreetRUNACBHTFCRE
1510PooleRUNCRE
1545London EustonRUNCRE
1549Birmingham New StreetRUNHTFWSFCRE
1645London EustonRUNCRE
1712Birmingham New StreetMSHRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1745London EustonRUNCRE
1749Birmingham New StreetMSHRUNACBHTFWSFCRE
1854Birmingham New StreetRUNHTFWSFCRE
1945London EustonRUNCRE
2018Birmingham New StreetRUNHTFWSFCRE
2149Birmingham New StreetRUNHTFWSFCRE
2318Birmingham New StreetRUNACBHTFWSFCRE

Cross Country services to Liverpool did increase again in the late 1990s, with an 1135 to Portsmouth formed of a class 158, and an 1810 to London Paddington. Then again, for Operation Princess which saw two-hourly departures from Liverpool to Portsmouth. As we know, that ended with Liverpool falling off the Cross Country map.

So, I think the answer to the original question is that 1994 was the point at which Regional Railways started to run Liverpool to Birmingham, but it was another nine years before Cross Country no longer served Liverpool, and the transition in the 1990s was not one for the other.
 
Last edited:

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
8,408
Manchester from Birmingham was XX:35 by 1993, I don't have anything for the rest of the 1990s until Winter 1999/2000.

I'll try, anyway!


Reading towards New Street:
0632 (Paddington to Edinburgh via Manchester)
0752 (Paddington to Wolverhampton)
0842 (Poole to Manchester)
0946 (Paddington to Manchester)
1033 ('The Sussex Scot' Brighton to Glasgow & Edinburgh)
1100 ('The Northumbrian' Poole to Newcastle)
1247 ('The Wessex Scot' Poole to Glasgow & Edinburgh)
1334 (Reading to Manchester)
1442 (Poole to Liverpool)
1603 (Brighton to Manchester)
1644 FO (Reading to Leeds)
1744 (Poole to Manchester)
1916 (Poole to Manchester)
1954 (Folkestone Cen. to Manchester)
2235 (Poole to Glasgow & Edinburgh sleeper)

In spite of the untidy times at Reading, at Poole departures were on tidy XX:40 slots (0640, 1040, 1240, 1540) except the 0900 ('The Northumbrian' for Newcastle), 1710 (for Manchester) and the sleeper at 2035.


New Street towards Reading:
0611 (Wolverhampton to Paddington)
0706 (Wolverhampton to Poole)
0806 (Manchester to Folkestone Cen.)
0906 (Manchester to Reading)
1006 (Manchester to Poole)
1106 (Birmingham to Reading)
1213 ('The Northumbrian' Newcastle to Poole)
1306 ('The Wessex Scot' Edinburgh & Glasgow to Poole)
1406 (Manchester Piccadilly to Birmingham Int'l)
1506 (Manchester to Poole)
1606 ('The Sussex Scot' Edinburgh & Glasgow to Brighton)
1703 (Manchester to Paddington)
1742 (Liverpool to Poole)
1906 (Manchester to Paddington)
2111 (Edinburgh to Paddington via Manchester)

Many thanks for those. Still some significant differences compared to the late-90s timetable, with Poole services still less frequent, though the northbound 'Wessex Scot' already had its late-90s slot by 1989 it appears.

Assuming the 1990 timetable was similar, I think my train in June 1990 would have been the 0640 Poole-Manchester.

I never knew there was a Poole sleeper! Presumably its period of operation coincided with my 'blank' period for XC, as I am fairly sure it had gone by the late 90s.

I wonder what then happened to the unbalanced 0906 Manchester-Reading.

FWIW I remember the Southampton departures in the late 90s period (1996/7 onwards) which were as follows. I've put 'Scotland' for Scottish services as I can't recall whether Glasgow or Edinburgh (sorry!)

0630-ish Poole-Scotland via Manchester, 47-hauled, electric from Preston, stock stabled Bournemouth overnight
0730-ish Poole-Liverpool, 47-hauled throughout, stock stabled Bournemouth overnight
0950 York, perhaps Newcastle some years, variously HST and 47-hauled in different years (IIRC)
1150 Wessex Scot via WCML, HST
1250 Dorset Scot, via ECML, HST
1450 Pines Express to Manchester, HST, 47-hauled throughout later
1650 Manchester, HST
1750 Manchester, HST
1850 Manchester, 47-hauled, 86-hauled from Birmingham
1950 Birmingham HST, introduced slightly later (1998?)

Like in 1989 there was a clockface pattern from Hampshire, but the Reading departures were more irregular with the Brighton and Paddington services at other times in the hour.

Southbound services similar, with a series of morning HST departures from Manchester, two of which worked back up as the Wessex and Dorset Scot, an afternoon Liverpool-Poole (the 1510 presumably looking at @JonathanH's post; a service which appeared to have run in some form since at least 1973!) and an afternoon Scotland via Manchester.

Other workings I recall from the late 90s include a 1418 from Paddington (to Scotland, I think?), conveniently in the usual Turbo slot from Paddington; an Edinburgh-Reading, arriving around 1600 (1406 ex-Birmingham perhaps?) and returning as a Reading-Liverpool, and a 1718 (I assume) Manchester-Paddington, which I used on 18/11/96 (86214 'Sans Pareil' to Birmingham, Porterbrook-liveried 47810 from Birmingham) which would presumably then be the 1906 from Birmingham which existed in 1989.

So, I think the answer to the original question is that 1994 was the point at which Regional Railways started to run Liverpool to Birmingham, but it was another nine years before Cross Country no longer served Liverpool, and the transition in the 1990s was not one for the other.

Many thanks for your comprehensive summary during this period. Looks like, overall, it was a gradual process, with the 1989 pattern already less frequent than that prevailing in the mid-80s.
 
Last edited:

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
8,408
Many thanks for those. Still some significant differences compared to the late-90s timetable, with Poole services still less frequent, though the northbound 'Wessex Scot' already had its late-90s slot by 1989 it appears.

Assuming the 1990 timetable was similar, I think my train in June 1990 would have been the 0640 Poole-Manchester.

I never knew there was a Poole sleeper! Presumably its period of operation coincided with my 'blank' period for XC, as I am fairly sure it had gone by the late 90s.

I wonder what then happened to the unbalanced 0906 Manchester-Reading.
Sorry to reply to own post - looking at 1s76.com it appears this was a Brighton, not a Reading. A long-standing service too, for many years, right into the Virgin era, there seemed to be a Manchester-Brighton in this slot.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
Location
The back of beyond
From around 1987 to 1995 I stopped following XC, before regaining interest around the time of privatisation. By then, XC Liverpool services were much more restricted: there was a daily Poole-Liverpool and return (out morning, back afternoon). The latter service, the southbound afternoon Liverpool-Poole was one of the longest-standing individual XC services, with a history going back to at least 1978. There was also, IIRC, an afternoon Reading-Liverpool which was the return working of the Edinburgh-Reading which ISTR was notable for being worked occasionally by D9000 "Royal Scots Grey". This must have presumably have had a balancing working, presumably in the morning out of Liverpool.

The afternoon Reading-Liverpool train was 1M79, departing at various times during different timetables (1647/1653/1654) and was formed from 1V96 which was the 0910 Edinburgh - Reading. 1M79 was a truncated version of the Dover Western Docks - Liverpool which previously departed Dover at 1412 and ran in the same path from Reading. 1M79 was the return working of 1O99 the 0644 Liverpool - Dover WD.

At one point there was also a 1F09 1546 Liverpool - Derby and in latter years (1999+) a 1V98 1810 Liverpool - Paddington.

Sorry to reply to own post - looking at 1s76.com it appears this was a Brighton, not a Reading. A long-standing service too, for many years, right into the Virgin era, there seemed to be a Manchester-Brighton in this slot.

The Manchester - Brighton (1O66, later 1O30) left Manchester around 0718 and departed New Street at 0906, returning from Brighton as 1M50 at 1420. This train ran for many years.
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
8,408
The afternoon Reading-Liverpool train was 1M79, departing at various times during different timetables (1647/1653/1654) and was formed from 1V96 which was the 0910 Edinburgh - Reading.
That's what I seem to remember happening, also IIRC there were several XC trains north from Reading around 1600-1700 or so. 1M50 mentioned below would be one of these.

1V96 was well-known for occasionally getting D9000 "Royal Scots Grey", wasn't it?

I was just trying to recall the late-90s southbound pattern on the Bournemouth axis (I remember the northbound more clearly). I think I've worked out most of the Bournemouth departures from Birmingham but I can't remember what formed the 1820-ish northbound Bournemouth-Manchester (47-hauled, 86-hauled north of Birmingham) nor the 1920-ish northbound Bournemouth-Birmingham (HST). The 1920-ish 'ought' to have been the back-working of the 1506 southbound from Birmingham however this was 1V96, if I remember right. However the WTTs are available from Network Rail for this era so will try to take a look.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
Location
The back of beyond
That's what I seem to remember happening, also IIRC there were several XC trains north from Reading around 1600-1700 or so. 1M50 mentioned below would be one of these.

1V96 was well-known for occasionally getting D9000 "Royal Scots Grey", wasn't it?

I was just trying to recall the late-90s southbound pattern on the Bournemouth axis (I remember the northbound more clearly). I think I've worked out most of the Bournemouth departures from Birmingham but I can't remember what formed the 1820-ish northbound Bournemouth-Manchester (47-hauled, 86-hauled north of Birmingham) nor the 1920-ish northbound Bournemouth-Birmingham (HST). The 1920-ish 'ought' to have been the back-working of the 1506 southbound from Birmingham however this was 1V96, if I remember right. However the WTTs are available from Network Rail for this era so will try to take a look.

You're getting slightly confused with your times I think.

1V96 (1406 ex-New St) / 1M79 was renowned for getting all manner of interesting traction due to the fact that if there was no '47/8' available a loco could be hired in for a few hours to cover Birmingham - Reading and back so anything on Saltley could be used and often was, such as 31s, 37s, no-heat 47s and suchlike. This was also the case from 1998 onwards when 1V96 was extended to Bournemouth running as 1O38 which still left New Street at 1406 and returned from Bomo at 1814 as 1M81. The 1506 from New Street to Bournemouth was latterly booked an HST and returned on the 1920, although in the early 1990s the 1506 off New Street was 1O13 the York-Poole which was a one-way move with a northbound working the following morning.
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
8,408
You're getting slightly confused with your times I think.

1V96 (1406 ex-New St) / 1M79 was renowned for getting all manner of interesting traction due to the fact that if there was no '47/8' available a loco could be hired in for a few hours to cover Birmingham - Reading and back so anything on Saltley could be used and often was, such as 31s, 37s, no-heat 47s and suchlike. This was also the case from 1998 onwards when 1V96 was extended to Bournemouth running as 1O38 which still left New Street at 1406 and returned from Bomo at 1814 as 1M81. The 1506 from New Street to Bournemouth was latterly booked an HST and returned on the 1920, although in the early 1990s the 1506 off New Street was 1O13 the York-Poole which was a one-way move with a northbound working the following morning.

Ah ok thanks - normally I remember these things quite well but it appears not in this case!

I swear 1V96 and 1M81 worked concurrently, but it appears not. I take it 1M79 was withdrawn when 1M81 was introduced and there was no longer an afternoon Reading-Liverpool?

The introduction of the 1920 HST may well have coincided with the morning Poole-York moving from HST to 47-hauled, though perhaps this is something else I'm misremembering!
 

Jamesrob637

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2016
Messages
5,657
Around 1998, there was an 11am Plymouth to Liverpool, on a Saturday at least. Anybody recall?
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
Location
The back of beyond
Around 1998, there was an 11am Plymouth to Liverpool, on a Saturday at least. Anybody recall?

That was 1M40 (1140 ex-Plymouth) which was the return of 1V35 which started at Derby or Wolverhampton, depending on the day of the week. In the Summer 1998 timetable though the Saturday train was the 0630 Derby - Paignton, not Plymouth.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
Location
The back of beyond
Ah ok thanks - normally I remember these things quite well but it appears not in this case!

I swear 1V96 and 1M81 worked concurrently, but it appears not. I take it 1M79 was withdrawn when 1M81 was introduced and there was no longer an afternoon Reading-Liverpool?

The introduction of the 1920 HST may well have coincided with the morning Poole-York moving from HST to 47-hauled, though perhaps this is something else I'm misremembering!

1V96/1M79 turned into 1O38/1M81 for the Summer 1998 timetable. You're correct, there was then no 1M79 running from Reading to Liverpool in the afternoon. In later years the morning 0905 Poole-York (1E25 or 1E32 depending on year) moved from being 47-hauled to HST so the only booked loco-hauled morning departures from Dorset were then 1S54 and 1M01. I spent alot of time on those trains in those days so have detailed notes if there's anything specific you need to know.
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
8,408
1V96/1M79 turned into 1O38/1M81 for the Summer 1998 timetable. You're correct, there was then no 1M79 running from Reading to Liverpool in the afternoon. In later years the morning 0905 Poole-York (1E25 or 1E32 depending on year) moved from being 47-hauled to HST so the only booked loco-hauled morning departures from Dorset were then 1S54 and 1M01. I spent alot of time on those trains in those days so have detailed notes if there's anything specific you need to know.

OK thanks. I think the Edinburgh-Reading being extended to Bournemouth is starting to come back to me now.

Most things I can probably work out from the WTTs but just a couple of things maybe spring to mind: which years were the Poole-York 47-hauled and which years was it an HST?
Also was the Pines Express (1420 off Bournemouth, more or less) 47-hauled for a while in the later 90s or am I dreaming that?

Do you have detail about the service pattern in general on the Bournemouth route for the very early 90s, e.g. 1990, 1991 and 1992?

Thanks.
 
Last edited:

Jamesrob637

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2016
Messages
5,657
There is an 1150 Plymouth to Liverpool on Mon-Fri, starting at Paignton instead on Saturdays, shown in the Summer 1999 timetable.

11:50 sounds right however I'm sure I caught it from Plymouth one Saturday in 1998.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
Location
The back of beyond
11:50 sounds right however I'm sure I caught it from Plymouth one Saturday in 1998.

Most likely you did, but not during the summer timetable

OK thanks. I think the Edinburgh-Reading being extended to Bournemouth is starting to come back to me now.

Most things I can probably work out from the WTTs but just a couple of things maybe spring to mind: which years were the Poole-York 47-hauled and which years was it an HST?

The Poole-York (1E32) and York-Poole (1O13) went from 47-hauled to HST operation at the start of the Summer 1998 timetable I believe. After this there were only two one-way 47-hauled trains to Dorset in the afternoon, being 1O14 Liverpool - Poole and 1O16 Glasgow-Poole.

Also was the Pines Express (1420 off Bournemouth, more or less) 47-hauled for a while in the later 90s or am I dreaming that?

The Pines (1O09 0817 Manchester - Bournemouth, 1006 ex-New St, 1M14 1418 Bournemouth - Manchester) went over from HST to 47 haulage in Summer 1999. Also at around the same time the Blackpool - Portsmouth (1O71/1M32) went over to 47 haulage.
 
Last edited:

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
8,408
Most likely you did, but not during the summer timetable



The Poole-York (1E32) and York-Poole (1O13) went from 47-hauled to HST operation at the start of the Summer 1998 timetable I believe. After this there were only two one-way 47-hauled trains to Dorset in the afternoon, being 1O14 Liverpool - Poole and 1O16 Glasgow-Poole.
Ah ok, thanks. For some reason I had the idea it went the other way, HST to 47. At a guess, the latter two services were the 1706 and 1806, respectively, south from New Street? I remember the 1906 was a Paddington service, I know that as I once took it from Stafford to Reading, and in late 1996 still had a loco-change at New Street.

I haven't yet figured out what the 1106 south from Birmingham was during this period - can you remember that one? Not sure if it was still a Reading terminator as it was in 1989.
The Pines (1O09 0817 Manchester - Bournemouth, 1006 ex-New St, 1M14 1418 Bournemouth - Manchester) went over from HST to 47 haulage in Summer 1999. Also at around the same time the Blackpool - Portsmouth (1O71/1M32) went over to 47 haulage.
OK, thanks so I wasn't imagining it!
 
Last edited:

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
Location
The back of beyond
Ah ok, thanks. For some reason I had the idea it went the other way, HST to 47. At a guess, the latter two services were the 1706 and 1806, respectively, south from New Street? I remember the 1906 was a Paddington service, I know that as I once took it from Stafford to Reading, and in late 1996 still had a loco-change at New Street.

That's correct, 1O14 was 1706 ex-New Street, 1O16 was 1806.

I haven't yet figured out what the 1106 south from Birmingham was during this period - can you remember that one? Not sure if it was still a Reading terminator as it was in 1989.

The 1106 (1V94, later 1V93) went to London Paddington and the stock formed 1S87 which departed at 1418 and went to Glasgow or Edinburgh depending on date.
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
8,408
That's correct, 1O14 was 1706 ex-New Street, 1O16 was 1806.



The 1106 (1V94, later 1V93) went to London Paddington and the stock formed 1S87 which departed at 1418 and went to Glasgow or Edinburgh depending on date.

OK - thanks. I remember the 1418, it nicely fitted into the half-hourly Paddington-Oxford pattern, replacing the usual Turbo. Was this via Manchester or direct?

Quite a choice of Scotland services from Reading in those days, by all accounts: the morning service from Poole, the Sussex Scot, the Wessex Scot, the Dorset Scot and this one.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
Location
The back of beyond
OK - thanks. I remember the 1418, it nicely fitted into the half-hourly Paddington-Oxford pattern, replacing the usual Turbo. Was this via Manchester or direct?

Quite a choice of Scotland services from Reading in those days, by all accounts: the morning service from Poole, the Sussex Scot, the Wessex Scot, the Dorset Scot and this one.

I don't recall if it went via Manchester or the WCML.

The HST 1O04 to Bournemouth formed 1S39 to Scotland via the West Coast and 1O06 to Bournemouth formed 1S37 to Scotland via the East Coast. These trains were occasionally 47-hauled vice HST.
 

Halwynd

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2021
Messages
441
Location
North West
OK - thanks. I remember the 1418, it nicely fitted into the half-hourly Paddington-Oxford pattern, replacing the usual Turbo. Was this via Manchester or direct?

It went via Wigan - I used it regularly between Reading and Preston. Always an 86 from Birmingham.
 

irish_rail

On Moderation
Joined
30 Oct 2013
Messages
4,295
Location
Plymouth
OK thanks. I think the Edinburgh-Reading being extended to Bournemouth is starting to come back to me now.

Most things I can probably work out from the WTTs but just a couple of things maybe spring to mind: which years were the Poole-York 47-hauled and which years was it an HST?
Also was the Pines Express (1420 off Bournemouth, more or less) 47-hauled for a while in the later 90s or am I dreaming that?

Do you have detail about the service pattern in general on the Bournemouth route for the very early 90s, e.g. 1990, 1991 and 1992?

Thanks.
I think, until 1991, the Poole to York was a Poole to Edinburgh, class 47 hauled throughout.
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
8,408
I don't recall if it went via Manchester or the WCML.

The HST 1O04 to Bournemouth formed 1S39 to Scotland via the West Coast and 1O06 to Bournemouth formed 1S37 to Scotland via the East Coast. These trains were occasionally 47-hauled vice HST.

OK thanks.

AKA the Wessex Scot and Dorset Scot respectively, I distinctly remember those as 1150 and 1250 from Southampton Central. (The southbound equivalent services were 1206 and 1306 from Birmingham, IIRC, returning as the 1620 and 1720-ish Bournemouth to Manchester; was the 1306 still the Wessex Scot, i.e. WCML, as in 1989? I seem to remember it was, some vague memory is telling me 1206 was Dorset Scot and 1306 was Wessex Scot).


It went via Wigan - I used it regularly between Reading and Preston. Always an 86 from Birmingham.

Thanks. So two "fast" Scotland services (i.e. via Wigan) from Reading in those days, with the Wessex Scot being the second, two via Manchester, and two via the ECML.

My first rail journey of the year 2000 was on a similar service, but on a Sunday (January 2). Remember it was a midmorning from Southampton Central, heading to Scotland via Wigan, and was a 47/86 change at Birmingham, but don't recall the exact times - the Sunday timetable was significantly different to Mon-Sat, but still at roughly the same slot (around xx50 from SOU) in most cases. Delightfully old-school traction for that first journey! (The year 2000 also featured my last-ever trip on a first-gen DMU, and some rare - for me - 37 haulage on a Southampton-Bristol vice 150, on the Thursday before Easter, IIRC).

I think, until 1991, the Poole to York was a Poole to Edinburgh, class 47 hauled throughout.

Thanks. Perhaps this was the descendant of the long-standing Poole to Newcastle, which existed in the 70s and 80s. This changed time somewhat over the years: around 1335 from Reading until 1981, then around 1135 from 1982 to 1985, then around 1235 in 1986 and 1987. Not sure about 1988 but it appears that in 1989 (see above) that the Newcastle and Wessex Scot swapped with the Newcastle around two hours earlier at 1100, as seen above in @hexagon789's post. Thus, at a guess, this then eventually became the later Poole-York (Edinburgh for a time) under discussion here (which would have called Reading shortly before 1100), and the midday Dorset Scot via the ECML was a brand new service (perhaps introduced when the HSTs were introduced on the route?).

Also the 1989 Wessex Scot slot (1247 at Reading) looks almost identical to the late-90s slot.
 
Last edited:

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
Location
The back of beyond
OK thanks.

AKA the Wessex Scot and Dorset Scot respectively, I distinctly remember those as 1150 and 1250 from Southampton Central. (The southbound equivalent services were 1206 and 1306 from Birmingham, IIRC, returning as the 1620 and 1720-ish Bournemouth to Manchester; was the 1306 still the Wessex Scot, i.e. WCML, as in 1989? I seem to remember it was, some vague memory is telling me 1206 was Dorset Scot and 1306 was Wessex Scot).

I don't recall what the trains were called, I prefer to use operating headcodes and I didn't travel on those trains myself when they were HST-operated. I'm not sure what the West Coast route has to do with a train being called the 'Wessex Scot', as 'Wessex' is/was a geographical area encompassing Hampshire, Dorset, Wiltshire, Berkshire, Avon and Somerset.

My first rail journey of the year 2000 was on a similar service, but on a Sunday (January 2). Remember it was a midmorning from Southampton Central, heading to Scotland via Wigan, and was a 47/86 change at Birmingham, but don't recall the exact times - the Sunday timetable was significantly different to Mon-Sat, but still at roughly the same slot (around xx50 from SOU) in most cases. Delightfully old-school traction for that first journey! (The year 2000 also featured my last-ever trip on a first-gen DMU, and some rare - for me - 37 haulage on a Southampton-Bristol vice 150, on the Thursday before Easter, IIRC).

I assume that was 1S39 the 0905 Poole - Glasgow which was hauled by 47818 on Jan 2nd 2000 as far as New Street, arrival in Birmingham would have been around 1300.
 
Last edited:

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
17,055
Location
Glasgow
I'm not sure what the West Coast route has to do with a train being called the 'Wessex Scot', as 'Wessex' is/was a geographical area encompassing Hampshire, Dorset, Wiltshire, Berkshire, Avon and Somerset.
It linked Scotland and Wessex.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
17,055
Location
Glasgow
Well clearly. But it wasn't called that because it was routed via the WCML is the point, although maybe I misconstrued this statement "was the 1306 still the Wessex Scot, i.e. WCML, as in 1989?"
Sorry, I thought you meant you couldn't understand why a WCML service would carry the name 'Wessex Scot' - I.e. how the name was derived.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
5,058
Location
The back of beyond
Sorry, I thought you meant you couldn't understand why a WCML service would carry the name 'Wessex Scot' - I.e. how the name was derived.

Not at all, although it did seem to be a rather desperate attempt to distinguish the train from the 'Dorset Scot', bearing in mind a train called the 'Wessex Scot' could also conceivably start at Taunton, Bristol, Swindon or suchlike.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top