Blackburn - London Terminals: permitted route query

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dave87016

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If I purchased a off peak return from Blackburn to London Terminals with a railcard at £52:35 I can I use it outward via WCML and return via ECML ? any help is much appreciated
 
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Oscar

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An Accrington (or even Rishton) - London SVR (Off-Peak Return) is valid via both the WCML and ECML. This also costs £52.35. You could start short at Blackburn on the outward leg and travel to London via the WCML, then come back via the ECML and buy an SDS (Anytime Day Single) to cover the gap. Accrington - Blackburn Anytime Day Single is only £2.10 with a railcard.
 
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MidnightFlyer

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Rishton is slightly cheaper than Accrington or Church & Oswaldtwistle to Blackburn, by 75p-£1 or so on an SOS. The disadvantage is that coming back from Leeds that would enforce a compulsory change at Accrington onto the slow service calling at Rishton.
 

John @ home

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Note that the Off-Peak Return Rishton - London Terminals has much longer time restrictions to and from Kings X than Off-Peak Returns priced by East Coast. It has validity code 2C.
 

yorkie

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If you already bought the ticket, you can get an over-distance excess. However many ticket office staff do not know how to issue such an excess, so good luck and you may have to 'shop around' to get it! It's even worse when trying to get a zero fare excess as some staff don't like filling in a form, which some TOCs require them to do, when issuing a zero fare excess.
 

HowMuch?

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I'm a long-time lurker, picking up really useful stuff - thanks everyone. I rarely post a question because usually by the time I've grasped what it is I don't know, someone has supplied the answer. However, this thread was just pulling together some of the points I would have liked clarifying when it went quiet.

This is a bit long, I hope you won't mind on the grounds that it asks questions that may be useful to other Routeing Guide niovices.

The topic is the East Coast leg of the OPs's proposed round trip. Specifically
"What allows an Any Permitted Accrington-London ticket to be used via Halifax-Leeds-Doncaster"
I'll be specific and say an Off Peak Return ticket. I'll also stick to "Any Permitted", to avoid complications caused by restrictions to specific TOCs or routes.

So, If anyone would be good enough to help, I'd be grateful for comments interspersed below. Either responses to the questions, or explanations of how I've missed the point completely. If I've not framed the questions exactly right, I'm sorry, please answer the question I SHOULD have asked.

As I understand it (he said confidently :|) the ticket from Accringtion IS valid via ECML to London. If so, the route must be one of

(a) a 'normal' Permitted Route (as described in the body of the Routeing Guide) ie direct, short, or mapped
(b) an otherwise non-permitted route allowed by an Easement in the appendix to the Routeing Guide.
(c) an otherwise non-permitted route allowed by the TOC(s) over and above the strict requirements of the Routeing Guide - out of the goodness of their hearts, no doubt.

(And not disallowed by one of the "Negative Easements", but we'll leave them alone for now.)

Details

(a1) Permitted by being Direct
The simplest way of knowing if a route is permitted is if you are on a direct train from origin station to destination station.

There are no direct services Accrington-KingsCross, so we must look deeper.

Q. Where the Direct Train rule IS appropriate, does it apply only if the passenger is actually on the direct train? (This is how I read it.) Or does one direct train a day turn that route into a permitted route - so that the passenger may then follow that route by whatever combinations of trains he wishes.

(a2) Permitted by being Short
The route may be permitted because it is the shortest possible. [That means short in distance, not time. ATOC apparently think that passengers aren't that bothered about time.] Or it can be within 3 miles of the shortest.

Q. So is Accrington-Halifax-Donny-London short enough, compared with Accrington-Preston-Manchester-London?

(a3) Permitted by Maps
If this route is NOT direct, or short enough, then if this Route IS permitted it must be by the fun :shock: rules of Routeing Points and Maps...

The first requirement is that Halifax (Accrington's Routeing Point in the direction of Leeds and Donny) passes the fare check and is therefore a valid routeing point for Accrington-London. That is: We can go to London via Halifax if there is at least one ticket type from Halifax to London which is no dearer than the same ticket type from Accrington to London.

Q. Can the fare comparison be made using any type of ticket, or only the type of ticket held by the passenger?

Q. Does Halifax pass the "fare-check" test to be a Routeing point for Accrington-London?

Q. Does the fact that there is a direct train from an origin Routeing point (Halifax in this case) to the destination (London) automatically make this routeing point valid ? I ASSUME NOT, BUT JUST THOUGHT I'D CHECK

If Halifax IS a valid Routeing Point for Accrington-London, then the next step is to look for permitted routes from Halifax to London.

Q. Does the fact that there is a direct train from a valid Routeing point (Halifax) to the destination (London) automatically make this train's route permitted. Or does the "direct train" rule only apply to trains covering the whole journey?

Q. If the route is Permitted, but not by reason of shortness or directness, is it because the route can be traced out on a valid set of maps?

(b) 'Permitted' by an Easement

If this route is not 'normally' Permitted by the rules above, is it allowed by one of the extra rules (usually badly written and sometimes explicitly out of date) listed in the back of the Routeing Guide).

Q. Does a favourable easement cause a route to become 'Permitted' or is this wred best left for routes that are Permitted BEFORE we look at easements.

(c) Granted by Journey Planner

Failing everything above, is this route one of those mysterious ones which though not apparently a Permitted route, and not allowed by any easement, does sometimes pop up when choosing a ticket and route? The kind of route that is not justified in The Book and so requires the cautious passenger to take a printed itinerary along (so the nice man on the train and the lovely man at the barrier will accept that your ticket is valid and that you didn't just make up a route or rely on the 'man on the platform' to tell you which way you could travel).

Sorry again for the length of this. I hope the questions are useful Im sure the answers will be.
 
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Oscar

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Q. Does Halifax pass the "fare-check" test to be a Routeing point for Accrington-London?
Yes, it does. It passes the test on Anytime Single (SOS) fares. The "fare-check" test is only done with singles and if any one of the singles passes the test then the route seems to be considered valid. Halifax is a routeing point for points as far west as Rishton. The East Coast Main Line is a permitted route for Halifax - London by (among others) maps WY + ER (Halifax - Bradford - Leeds - Wakefield - Doncaster - London) and maps WK + ER (Halifax - Huddersfield - Wakefield - Doncaster - London).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Q. Where the Direct Train rule IS appropriate, does it apply only if the passenger is actually on the direct train?
Yes, it only applies when the passenger is actually on this train.

Q. Does a favourable easement cause a route to become 'Permitted' or is this wred best left for routes that are Permitted BEFORE we look at easements.
No, an easement overrides the Permitted Routes found in section (a) of your discussion of the Routeing Guide. So a positive easement allows an additional route to be valid (which would not otherwise have been so) while a negative easement forbids a route which would otherwise have been permitted.
Q. Does the fact that there is a direct train from a valid Routeing point (Halifax) to the destination (London) automatically make this train's route permitted. Or does the "direct train" rule only apply to trains covering the whole journey?
It only applies to trains covering the whole journey. As soon as you start looking at routeing points only mapped routes count (not direct trains or shortest routes).

Q. If the route is Permitted, but not by reason of shortness or directness, is it because the route can be traced out on a valid set of maps?
Yes.
 

HowMuch?

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... for very clear answers. Couldn't be clearer, in fact.

I keep thinking I've 'got it' then another query comes up that makes me realise I'm still a long way off!

I've got another Q or two, but I'll hold fire to see if anyone else chips in.

Edit: Just noticed I asked one question twice. It wasn't a trick ; I'm just an idiot.
 
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