Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[Chrisyd]

Have I not been paying sufficient attention? When did Preston - Manchester move from December 2016 to December 2017? I was aware that Blackpool to Preston was already running beyond the December 2016 date.

Thanks

 

[snowball]

When Transpennine's Scottish services originally transitioned over to running via Golburne Junction, it happened slowly over 12 months.

How can that be the case, didn't they have booked stops at Bolton in one timetable and ar Wigan NW in the next?

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Have I not been paying sufficient attention? When did Preston - Manchester move from December 2016 to December 2017? I was aware that Blackpool to Preston was already running beyond the December 2016 date.

The last published update to the CP5 Enhancements Delivery Programme still says 2016 but nobody believes that any more. The departure of BB has delayed things.

 

[ianhr]

Have I not been paying sufficient attention? When did Preston - Manchester move from December 2016 to December 2017? I was aware that Blackpool to Preston was already running beyond the December 2016 date.

Thanks

Yes, this seems to imply that they are not intending to do ANY electrification work in the NW this year!

 

[AndyW33]

When Transpennine's Scottish services originally transitioned over to running via Golburne Junction, it happened slowly over 12 months. Yes this was due to new stock as well but I imagine it would be a similar process going back again.

When a service is rerouted, drivers and guards need to acquire route knowledge in advance. This was the case when the Scottish services were re-routed via Golborne. At the same time TPE crews also had to acquire traction knowledge for EMUs in general and 350s in particular. All this had to be done while still running the services.
But in December 2017 the traction will still be the same as today, as there won't be time for any new orders to have been delivered. The TPE crews currently have route knowledge via Bolton, and the only challenge for TPE is to make sure they retain this until the full service goes that way again.
So there's no need for a phased change.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The last published update to the CP5 Enhancements Delivery Programme still says 2016 but nobody believes that any more. The departure of BB has delayed things.

The last update definitely has Salford Crescent to Preston as December 2017 (that's a Post-Hendy update). It hasn't been December 2016 for quite some time, it was looking dicey when BB were still the appointed contractor.

I estimate we're about 9 months adrift now from the December 2016 date - Balfour Beatty were maybe 3 months behind, they quit and Carillion have come onboard, which has taken another 3 months, and there's still some design work and verification to do, which is probably another 3 months, together with any unforeseen difficulties, that probably takes the full 12 months, so we're realistic with December 2017 at the moment.

 

[snowball]

The last update definitely has Salford Crescent to Preston as December 2017 (that's a Post-Hendy update).

Is that update in the public domain?

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Yes, this seems to imply that they are not intending to do ANY electrification work in the NW this year!

I don't see where you get that. It took more than a year to electrify Manchester-Liverpool from the first masts to a running service, and Manchester to Euxton is a comparable distance.

Pre-electrification track and drainage works are about to start between Victoria and Stalybridge.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Is that update in the public domain?

Yes. GMCA have a copy of the data they received on their website. The full version isn't (as far as I'm aware) on the NR site just yet (it's now a month behind, though I've not looked for it for a while).

I'll try and get a link without Google doing it's usual crappy redirection if you can't find it.

It's at https://www.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/461/item_14 - it might want to download automatically.

 

[LDECRexile]

I've dusted off two friends who have been hibernating.

Please see below.

 

[snowball]

Yes. GMCA have a copy of the data they received on their website. The full version isn't (as far as I'm aware) on the NR site just yet (it's now a month behind, though I've not looked for it for a while).

I'll try and get a link without Google doing it's usual crappy redirection if you can't find it.

Ah yes, in my expectation of something published by NR I'd forgotten this (courtesy of Google cache):

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...sg=AFQjCNGvjDq111GfoIKKefmdKs3QoDvGuw&cad=rja

I think it's been commented that it seems to be based on the first of the two versions of the Hendy report that appeared on the DfT website on the same day, as described by Modern Railways:

http://www.modern-railways.com/view_article.asp?ID=9327&pubID=37&t=0&s=0&sO=both&p=1&i=10

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Ah yes, in my expectation of something published by NR I'd forgotten this (courtesy of Google cache):

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...sg=AFQjCNGvjDq111GfoIKKefmdKs3QoDvGuw&cad=rja

I think it's been commented that it seems to be based on the first of the two versions of the Hendy report that appeared on the DfT website on the same day, as described by Modern Railways:

http://www.modern-railways.com/view_article.asp?ID=9327&pubID=37&t=0&s=0&sO=both&p=1&i=10

I've added a link, but that's the document, yeah.

 

[snowball]

It strangely separates the platform alterations at Oxford Road (2019) from the extra platforms at Piccadilly (CP6).

 

[Philip Phlopp]

It strangely separates the platform alterations at Oxford Road (2019) from the extra platforms at Piccadilly (CP6).

I think it's down to CP5 finishing at the end of March and CP6 starting 1st April 2019, so there's a few things which are down as CP6 completion which could be completed in 2019.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Yes, this seems to imply that they are not intending to do ANY electrification work in the NW this year!

Wires up - possibly/probably no - but mast bases etch -definitely some will happen in 2016.

 

[Greybeard33]

I think it's down to CP5 finishing at the end of March and CP6 starting 1st April 2019, so there's a few things which are down as CP6 completion which could be completed in 2019.

Yes, the bar chart on p11 of the Hendy report ("official" version) shows "Northern Hub inc Ordsall Chord" extending slightly over the 2019 CP5-CP6 boundary.

The GMCA document gives the dates for Preston-Blackpool and Victoria-Stalybridge electrification as "Within CP5 (2019)". Does this mean that some of the Northern service enhancements planned for the Dec 2017 timetable change will have to be postponed until May 2019? I think the ITT Train Service Requirement for Dec 2017 assumed these projects would be complete by then, per the pre-Hendy dates.

Edit: I suspect that platform capacity constraints at Preston and Victoria could prevent a fully electric service between Salford Crescent and Preston until the electric trains are able to continue through to Blackpool and Stalybridge.

 

[Viscount702]

Yes, the bar chart on p11 of the Hendy report ("official" version) shows "Northern Hub inc Ordsall Chord" extending slightly over the 2019 CP5-CP6 boundary.

The GMCA document gives the dates for Preston-Blackpool and Victoria-Stalybridge electrification as "Within CP5 (2019)". Does this mean that some of the Northern service enhancements planned for the Dec 2017 timetable change will have to be postponed until May 2019? I think the ITT Train Service Requirement for Dec 2017 assumed these projects would be complete by then, per the pre-Hendy dates.

Edit: I suspect that platform capacity constraints at Preston and Victoria could prevent a fully electric service between Salford Crescent and Preston until the electric trains are able to continue through to Blackpool and Stalybridge.

This is something I have been thinking about recently as well. If as now looks likely the only wires that may be up and useable by Dec 2017 is Manchester- Preston, then I am struggling to work out what can go over to electric traction. The TPE Scotland trains could revert to going via Bolton and the Preston Hazel Grove. Apart from that nothing as far as i can see.

Quite frankly I think the whole thing is becoming a mess and most of the improvements promised under the infrastructure works and the new TOCs will not be deliverable until well after they were promised.

 

[Senex]

Quite frankly I think the whole thing is becoming a mess and most of the improvements promised under the infrastructure works and the new TOCs will not be deliverable until well after they were promised.

Another Network Rail electrification disaster. How is it that the organisation that can do so well with major civil engineering jobs like Reading, Norton Bridge, or Farnworth Tunnel seems to do so very badly with the electrification programme?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Another Network Rail electrification disaster. How is it that the organisation that can do so well with major civil engineering jobs like Reading, Norton Bridge, or Farnworth Tunnel seems to do so very badly with the electrification programme?

Farnworth is a bit of the problem, as it was delayed, but the big issue is contractor trouble.

Balfour Beatty walked out half way through the project, staying on as design engineers, then deciding they didn't want to do that either, and walked out entirely. Their behaviour had a lot to do with them not wanting to be taken over by Carillion, so spun off Parsons Brinckerhoff (who do OLE design) during the project, and did lots of other stuff to make Carillion not want to buy BB.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Another Network Rail electrification disaster. How is it that the organisation that can do so well with major civil engineering jobs like Reading, Norton Bridge, or Farnworth Tunnel seems to do so very badly with the electrification programme?

Part of it is that major civil engineering has never stopped/paused. Electrification was paused for nearly 20 years as no major electrification was done since the early 90s. So many skill sets were lost. It takes time to build those up. In future if we keep going with electrification, it will get better and better -run to time and be in budget.

Farnworth is a bit of the problem, as it was delayed, but the big issue is contractor trouble.

Balfour Beatty walked out half way through the project, staying on as design engineers, then deciding they didn't want to do that either, and walked out entirely. Their behaviour had a lot to do with them not wanting to be taken over by Carillion, so spun off Parsons Brinckerhoff (who do OLE design) during the project, and did lots of other stuff to make Carillion not want to buy BB.

This has also contributed in a major way to delays on this project. The civils for Preston -Blackpool were done quite a long time ago - but it needs resignalling and signal engineers are not exactly in over-supply.

 

[LDECRexile]

Joe Callaghan has dropped me a line in which he says:

The track is closed for the next two weekends, that will stop Flying Scotsman passing through Farnworth.

It will run instead on the Wigan Line and will pass through Walkden station at 07.15 on the 23rd January.

There is still some work to be done at Farnworth besides the track at Kearsley and Moses Gate.

The road and wall over Cemetery Road bridge have just about been completed this week.

When we new the Bridge was being replaced I asked Network Rail if the new bridge would be put in line with Cemetery Rd to make it safer for cars leaving
Railway St. They said no, it is to placed at the same angle. Unfortunately it is now far more dangerous pulling out of Railway St than it was before.

It is now a totally blind exit. The Parapet is much higher, and with the entrance to the platform being moved the parapet is longer and obscures vision totally. A golden opportunity to make things safer has been missed.

They at the very least need mirrors.

Thank you Joe

 

[deltic08]

Farnworth is a bit of the problem, as it was delayed, but the big issue is contractor trouble.

Balfour Beatty walked out half way through the project, staying on as design engineers, then deciding they didn't want to do that either, and walked out entirely. Their behaviour had a lot to do with them not wanting to be taken over by Carillion, so spun off Parsons Brinckerhoff (who do OLE design) during the project, and did lots of other stuff to make Carillion not want to buy BB.

I hope BB are punished financially for not completing a contract. I wouldn't award them a contract again.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I hope BB are punished financially for not completing a contract. I wouldn't award them a contract again.

Are they still connected with the Leigh Guided Busway project?

 

[AndyW33]

Edit: I suspect that platform capacity constraints at Preston and Victoria could prevent a fully electric service between Salford Crescent and Preston until the electric trains are able to continue through to Blackpool and Stalybridge.

Not necessarily as far as Preston is concerned. All 6 through platforms are bi-directional, having two trains in the same platform is permitted by the signalling (and indeed required since portion working is alive and well at Preston). Then there's the electrified but rarely used south facing bays 3C and 4C.Finally, the downside through "platform currently known as RES" has subway connection to the rest of the station, and is electrified.

Edited to add - there's also upside through platform 7 but the present track alignment makes it of only limited use for stopping services. Because Preston's current track layout and signalling dates back to the period when loco changes, splitting loco hauled trains, and lots of mail and parcels traffic were routine, it has more flexibility than more recently remodelled stations such as Manchester Victoria do. This flexibility isn't always used as well as it could be when things go wrong, but road knowledge may have a part there.

 

[Elecman]

I don't think platform 7 can be used for passenger services due to a lack of suitable protection out of the sidings at the north end.

 

[snowball]

Network Rail has tweeted this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYxPfuAWYAEKuXs.jpg

It suggests that something is about to happen, contrary to the fears expressed in #2343.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I don't think platform 7 can be used for passenger services due to a lack of suitable protection out of the sidings at the north end.

Have the traps I put in gone then?

 

[Class 170101]

Not necessarily as far as Preston is concerned. All 6 through platforms are bi-directional, having two trains in the same platform is permitted by the signalling (and indeed required since portion working is alive and well at Preston).

Can you have two trains in Preston platforms without attaching or detaching though?

 

[Ianno87]

Not necessarily as far as Preston is concerned. All 6 through platforms are bi-directional, having two trains in the same platform is permitted by the signalling (and indeed required since portion working is alive and well at Preston). Then there's the electrified but rarely used south facing bays 3C and 4C.Finally, the downside through "platform currently known as RES" has subway connection to the rest of the station, and is electrified.

Edited to add - there's also upside through platform 7 but the present track alignment makes it of only limited use for stopping services. Because Preston's current track layout and signalling dates back to the period when loco changes, splitting loco hauled trains, and lots of mail and parcels traffic were routine, it has more flexibility than more recently remodelled stations such as Manchester Victoria do. This flexibility isn't always used as well as it could be when things go wrong, but road knowledge may have a part there.

Platforms 3C and 4C can only take about 3 carriages maximum (too short for 4 car EMU)

 

[coppercapped]

Another Network Rail electrification disaster. How is it that the organisation that can do so well with major civil engineering jobs like Reading, Norton Bridge, or Farnworth Tunnel seems to do so very badly with the electrification programme?

I don't know about the other projects, but the Reading rebuild was not project managed by Network Rail, but by Bechtel. See

http://www.bechtel.com/newsroom/releases/2015/09/reading-station-wins-uk-rail-award/

 

[TBSchenker]

Can you have two trains in Preston platforms without attaching or detaching though?

Yes, it's full Permissive. Platforms can be shared even if not attaching. Useful when the job has gone to pot and trains need to be parked in the station

 

[AndyW33]

Yes, it's full Permissive. Platforms can be shared even if not attaching. Useful when the job has gone to pot and trains need to be parked in the station

Or when the Manchester - Blackpool service is running late, to sneak an Ormskirk train into the south end of Platform 1 while the Blackpool service is completing its work at the north end. Saves a platform alteration and potential conflicting movement for the Ormskirk.
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Platforms 3C and 4C can only take about 3 carriages maximum (too short for 4 car EMU)

Is that what the Sectional Appendix says, or from observation? Just yesterday I came across a photo of a 4-car 310 unit in blue and grey sitting in Preston 4C. Now a 4-car 310 is/was less than a metre shorter than a 4 car 319 unit. Of course that might be crucial in putting the driver the wrong side of the signal, so really what the book says is what matters.