Bliar, The UK and War

[Old Timer]

I was listening to an item on today's BBC Radio 4 "Today" which concerned the situation in Afghanistan, and a defence expert made a comment about something I had never given thought to before.

It was this.

The UK has been at War now for the longest period in its history, 12 years. The UK has been at War almost continuously since Labour won power under Bliar.

It appears that alongside every other negative aspect of his reign, he holds the record as the only PM who has been at War for the whole of his tenure and his Government's tenure.

I found that a very sobering comment, made especially so by the fact that now we are closing RAF stations because we are now out of money and can only continue in Afghanistan by using money from the Defence budget. This in effect is actual cuts in men and equipment.

This evening I then read that we can afford Millions to pay for large multi-bedroomed houses in some of our more fashionable city areas to house the likes of Somalian "refugees", asylum seekers and others whilst we talk of the inevitable cuts that will have to happen to our health service if the debt mountain is to meet the new legal requirement of being halved in four years.

 

[Dai.]

You gotta break a few records when in power though,

Maggie Thatcher = First Woman.
Tony Blair = Only person who was at war for his whole tenure
Obama = First Black President
Brown = Ape
Bush = Idiot.

You get the idea.

 

[TrainBrain185]

I was listening to an item on today's BBC Radio 4 "Today" which concerned the situation in Afghanistan, and a defence expert made a comment about something I had never given thought to before.

It was this.

The UK has been at War now for the longest period in its history, 12 years. The UK has been at War almost continuously since Labour won power under Bliar.

It appears that alongside every other negative aspect of his reign, he holds the record as the only PM who has been at War for the whole of his tenure and his Government's tenure.

I found that a very sobering comment, made especially so by the fact that now we are closing RAF stations because we are now out of money and can only continue in Afghanistan by using money from the Defence budget. This in effect is actual cuts in men and equipment.

This evening I then read that we can afford Millions to pay for large multi-bedroomed houses in some of our more fashionable city areas to house the likes of Somalian "refugees", asylum seekers and others whilst we talk of the inevitable cuts that will have to happen to our health service if the debt mountain is to meet the new legal requirement of being halved in four years.

Yeah Mr OT, this Labour Government said we would lead the world out of reccession. Well, thats wrong, other nations are coming out the other end of it whilst surprise, surprise, Great Britain remains deep in the s**t. I expect things to get worse, not better in 2010, the raise in VAT, Income Tax, Fuel Tax, Oil per barrel and NI will increase the cost of living for many so causing further shrinking of the UK economy. I expect that the Pound will dip below the Euro and worth diddly-squat against the Dollar. Our local Council services will see cutbacks due to budget constraints and our Health Service will struggle to keep its head above water. Its all okay though, Mr Brown and his mob will continue to throw millions £££'s like confetti to the poorer nations for international aid and climate change issues, whilst the conflict with Afghanistan will continue to take its toll with our Forces. Happy 2010

 

[Old Timer]

The latest Labour spin is that there are TWO G20 Countries not out of Recession. The UK and Spain. Unfortunately Spain is NOT a G20 Country despite Harman and others including Brown stating it is and then weasling their words when it was pointed out.

That means the ONLY G20 Country in Recession (and it looks to be getting worse) is the UK.

Labour continue however to use Spain as an example of a Country that is still in Recession, and speak in such a way that deceives those who are not up to speed on the economic front.

Spain's issues are much different from ours and it has a strong underlying economic base that will enable it to recover well before we do.

 

[Donny Dave]

<snip>

This evening I then read that we can afford Millions to pay for large multi-bedroomed houses in some of our more fashionable city areas to house the likes of Somalian "refugees", asylum seekers and others whilst we talk of the inevitable cuts that will have to happen to our health service if the debt mountain is to meet the new legal requirement of being halved in four years.

Spending cuts will be required everywhere, not just the health service ....

Despite Labour promising to give all the help they can to the unemployed to help them find another job, guess what, they are making cuts there ....

Recently, I enquired about forklift refresher courses (my licenses have expired) so I could apply for a wider range of jobs. I was told that I can not get any training for anything unless I have been offered a job. How the **** do I get a job offer when the government won't help?

@ Trainbrain - Income Tax isn't going up (unless I've missed something), and VAT is only going back to it's previous level (which is what Labour said anyway). The price of oil is out of our control, so the only things increasing are National Insurance and Council Tax (for most people. Some councils have said they are freezing it for 2010).

 

[Failed Unit]

The latest Labour spin is that there are TWO G20 Countries not out of Recession. The UK and Spain. Unfortunately Spain is NOT a G20 Country despite Harman and others including Brown stating it is and then weasling their words when it was pointed out.

That means the ONLY G20 Country in Recession (and it looks to be getting worse) is the UK.

Labour continue however to use Spain as an example of a Country that is still in Recession, and speak in such a way that deceives those who are not up to speed on the economic front.

Spain's issues are much different from ours and it has a strong underlying economic base that will enable it to recover well before we do.

So that is alright then! That is the kind of arguement a 5 year old uses - I did xyz because child p did it. Come on Gordon, we are not at school now, are you basically saying it is OK for the UK to be in recession as long as another G20 country is. Then when Spain (if it was a G20 country) comes out of recession do we say it is OK there are other G77 countries in recession. Whatever happened to our recession would be the shortest and least severe of any G7 nation?

 

[TrainBrain185]

Spending cuts will be required everywhere, not just the health service ....

Despite Labour promising to give all the help they can to the unemployed to help them find another job, guess what, they are making cuts there ....

Recently, I enquired about forklift refresher courses (my licenses have expired) so I could apply for a wider range of jobs. I was told that I can not get any training for anything unless I have been offered a job. How the **** do I get a job offer when the government won't help?

@ Trainbrain - Income Tax isn't going up (unless I've missed something), and VAT is only going back to it's previous level (which is what Labour said anyway). The price of oil is out of our control, so the only things increasing are National Insurance and Council Tax (for most people. Some councils have said they are freezing it for 2010).

It has been mentioned of Personal Tax Rise in the next Budget. Yep, I appreciate the VAT is going back to the previous level, however its badly timed to increase it again in my opinion. This Government has an analogy of an irresponsible spendaholic person let loose with a Credit Card on a very high credit limit, spend, spend now then "oh s**t, how am I gonna pay the debt back"?

 

[jon0844]

The VAT reduction made almost no difference to the average person on the street.

Not only that, but there was a huge cost to industry to change the VAT rate, adjust prices and update signs/websites etc. Now they're having to change back (hopefully this won't come as such a shock as it was known about).

I really can't see why they bothered at all! You only saved a decent amount of money if you were buying something really expensive - so how did that benefit the poor exactly?

 

[marku51]

I was listening to an item on today's BBC Radio 4 "Today" which concerned the situation in Afghanistan, and a defence expert made a comment about something I had never given thought to before.

It was this.

The UK has been at War now for the longest period in its history, 12 years. The UK has been at War almost continuously since Labour won power under Bliar.

It appears that alongside every other negative aspect of his reign, he holds the record as the only PM who has been at War for the whole of his tenure and his Government's tenure.

I'm not sure where this expert was getting his facts or if there was more to it than this, but this doesn't really stand up factually. The UK hasn't been at war for 12 years, only 8, unless you are using a very, very loose definition of war. And if that is the case than there are plenty of other periods in UK history where there have been more than 12 years of war. Even with a strict definition of war there are several periods where the UK has been at war for 12 years. And there have been several PMs who were at war for their entire period in office.
It's way too easy to come up with shocking "facts" and spread them about. Anybody with any political agenda (including myself) can come up with some figures that work out to promote my agenda and use these to try and scare people into their way of thinking.

 

[Old Timer]

I'm not sure where this expert was getting his facts or if there was more to it than this, but this doesn't really stand up factually. The UK hasn't been at war for 12 years, only 8, unless you are using a very, very loose definition of war. And if that is the case than there are plenty of other periods in UK history where there have been more than 12 years of war. Even with a strict definition of war there are several periods where the UK has been at war for 12 years. And there have been several PMs who were at war for their entire period in office.
It's way too easy to come up with shocking "facts" and spread them about. Anybody with any political agenda (including myself) can come up with some figures that work out to promote my agenda and use these to try and scare people into their way of thinking.

Simply reporting what was broadcast, although from my memory of history, much of what you say appears to be new.

Facts in support ?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Facts in support ?

I'll get back to you...

 

[Pumbaa]

The VAT reduction made almost no difference to the average person on the street.

Not only that, but there was a huge cost to industry to change the VAT rate, adjust prices and update signs/websites etc. Now they're having to change back (hopefully this won't come as such a shock as it was known about).

I really can't see why they bothered at all! You only saved a decent amount of money if you were buying something really expensive - so how did that benefit the poor exactly?

The VAT cut was primarily aimed (no matter how much it was dressed up) to help business. Big high street retailers, for example, could pass on the saving to consumers, enabling them to shift more stock. Most business however, took that saving in themselves, giving them vital extra money. It wasn't as important as it was made out to be, but I imagine many medium sized business are thankful for the break, it probably helped them a hell of a lot!
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The latest Labour spin is that there are TWO G20 Countries not out of Recession. The UK and Spain. Unfortunately Spain is NOT a G20 Country despite Harman and others including Brown stating it is and then weasling their words when it was pointed out.

That means the ONLY G20 Country in Recession (and it looks to be getting worse) is the UK.

Labour continue however to use Spain as an example of a Country that is still in Recession, and speak in such a way that deceives those who are not up to speed on the economic front.

Spain's issues are much different from ours and it has a strong underlying economic base that will enable it to recover well before we do.

Both countries have a unique economic structure that causes us different problems to other countries. Blame it on the Govt as much as you like, the recovery would be far worse if Brown had followed the Conservative path of action.

 

[marku51]

Simply reporting what was broadcast, although from my memory of history, much of what you say appears to be new.

Facts in support ?

Well, just off the top of my head, the Napoleonic Wars were from 1803 (breaking of the peace of Amiens by the french) until 1815 (final capitulation of Napoleon and the treaty of Vienna). During this time there were several different PMs who were at war for their entire time in government. This is a pretty strict definition of war though. If you have a more broad definition of war than several other PMs were at war for their entire tenure, and there were several periods longer than 12 years of war.

I think that the point of this that seems questionable is the idea that Blair was at war for his entire tenure--He was elected in May of 1997 and the first war was when UK special forces went to Kosovo in June of 1999, and this only lasted a few months. After that the next war was going into Afghanistan in 2001.

None of these are difficult facts to look up--any history book will provide the information, or you can go to Wikipedia. But facts can be used to defend or attack an agenda. By stretching definitions I can come up with all kinds of things.

I'm not as much trying to defend Blair or Labour as I am trying to make a point that facts are being used, by both ends of the political spectrum, to cause fear. I really think that it is time for a change, even though I don't really agree with the conservative party all that much. But change is needed, and if that means a conservative government, than so be it. But I've come to that decision by informing myself, not by listening to the media.

 

[Old Timer]

.Both countries have a unique economic structure that causes us different problems to other countries. Blame it on the Govt as much as you like, the recovery would be far worse if Brown had followed the Conservative path of action.

Your opionion is at odds with just about every economic analyst both within the UK and abroad, the EMF, the IMF, most of the EU, and the G20

 

[jon0844]

Plus, the Conservatives lost power with a very strong, and growing, economy. Labour simply kept the same policies going - and then let it all go wrong.

Arguably, it would have done the same under the Tories eventually too - such as the cycle that is the economy. It will happen again, and again...

 

[Pumbaa]

Your opionion is at odds with just about every economic analyst both within the UK and abroad, the EMF, the IMF, most of the EU, and the G20

It's pretty evenly split if you look closely enough; most important people are shushed up to avoid scaremongering. It's in their best interests as well. Ultimately, if spending had been cut instantly, the recovery would have been long stalled with unemployment and all the usual yadda. It simply isn't as easy as the Conservatives made it out to be. The plan that Brown followed initially closely resembled that of the USA, conditions improved there before us which necessitated a little further spending.

Had we taken the Tory line, it would have been political suicide, not withstanding the sudden spike in unemployment, inflation, closed off supply etc. The dirty had to be done.

 

[Old Timer]

The Irish have implemented a budget that has been praised by most economic experts as the correct response.

All that Labour have done is to postpone the cuts into the next Parliament, which by virtue of that will have to be much bigger than had the pain been experienced now. In Opposition you will be hearing them shout about "Tory Cuts".

All part of the scorched earth policy they have been following for about the past year.

 

[jon0844]

I must admit, I pity whoever takes over next year. When someone looks at the finances, they'll have a heart attack.

I usually hate a Government blaming the previous one (and it's a bit much when you still harp on about it after 12/13 years) but the next Government - of any colour - is going to be able to do this quite justifiably for some considerable time.

Meanwhile, every remaining Labour MP will have secured a nice job on the board of a large corporation - just like you'd expect the Conservatives to do. In fact, the more I see new Labour, the more I see the party as the worst of the Tories. Thus, fearing the Conservatives getting back in is silly.

 

[Mojo]

Gordon Brown goes into a school and asks a pupil what he things he'll be doing when he grows up.

"Paying off your debt" replies the little boy.

 

[Failed Unit]

Had we taken the Tory line, it would have been political suicide, not withstanding the sudden spike in unemployment, inflation, closed off supply etc. The dirty had to be done.

However that will never be proved we only have G Browns word for that, remember the one that said no return to boom and bust? The one that took credit for the longest period of growth (which was nothing to do with Global conditions and everything to do with his policies) and blames the UK's worse recession on Global conditions and nothing to do with his policies. Remember John Prescot saying he would sort out the railways if Labour got into power

I get the impression that you are one of these people that would vote for your chosen party no matter what they do, for me it is 1997 again and we need some kind of change because the current lot don't seem to be any use. I am hoping I will get a decent candidate that will represent the area, but maybe to idealistic here! I know I have gone a little off topic but the PFI debt are worrying, they will drain the country as we must pay them all so the borrowing was hidden by Mr Brown.

 

[Old Timer]

.....for me it is 1997 again .......

For me it is an exact replay of 1979, union disputes, economy screwed. Companies failing, pulic spending out of control, taxation up, inflation on the upswards path, unemployment on the upwards path......................

Labour 1979, Labour 2009....nothing changes :roll::roll:

 

[Failed Unit]

For me it is an exact replay of 1979, union disputes, economy screwed. Companies failing, pulic spending out of control, taxation up, inflation on the upswards path, unemployment on the upwards path......................

Labour 1979, Labour 2009....nothing changes :roll::roll:

I can't remember the late 1970's early 80's myself as I was a result of the energy crisis in early 70's I do here from people that do remember it about the hyper inflation, strikes. From what I hear people in 1979 had the view the country was ****** and something needed to change. Some people have this view now, espcailly those in the know about the PFI timebomb ticking away.

I liked that quote from Mock the Week, should David Cameron win in May. "I would like to thank Gordon Brown for his assistance in my election as prime minister.

 

[jon0844]

Nobody ever wins an election, the other side simply loses.

There were rumours that Gordon might step down over Christmas and let someone else fight the next election - but I think the damage is done. That said, Gordon was saying at the 'opening' of HS1 that he intends to announce huge plans for the railway (as in BILLIONS of pounds) to add more high-speed routes.

The date of that announcement; March... a matter of weeks before the election.

Will we be expected to but that? I guess many will. Perhaps mention existing projects like Thameslink and Crossrail, and new rolling stock yet to be introduced (but already ordered and being built) and Joe Public won't have a clue.

 

[Oswyntail]

.... Perhaps mention existing projects like Thameslink and Crossrail, and new rolling stock yet to be introduced (but already ordered and being built) and Joe Public won't have a clue.

It will be even more subtle than that, if Labour pronouncements on the NHS over the last 12 years are anything to go by. It will be "We are authorising the expenditure of several squillions..." at the public announcement, followed by the memo to interested parties saying "...but you are getting no new money, so you will have to decide between projects yourselves".
Even further off topic, one useful piece of legislation might be one to ensure that, if funds for a project are announced by a minister, they are put in a protected pot and cannot be withdrawn without a similar announcement to Parliament.

 

[Failed Unit]

Nobody ever wins an election, the other side simply loses.

There were rumours that Gordon might step down over Christmas and let someone else fight the next election - but I think the damage is done. That said, Gordon was saying at the 'opening' of HS1 that he intends to announce huge plans for the railway (as in BILLIONS of pounds) to add more high-speed routes.

The date of that announcement; March... a matter of weeks before the election.

Will we be expected to but that? I guess many will. Perhaps mention existing projects like Thameslink and Crossrail, and new rolling stock yet to be introduced (but already ordered and being built) and Joe Public won't have a clue.

The thing with that even if it is an electrol bribe (remember the conservatives and the 365 order to keep York open for a short while longer) Most of the areas it would serve vote Labour anyway. Unless if they build to Scotland they think it may keep the nationalists out of thier safest seats.

 

[flymo]

The Tories would have done exactly what Labour did after Sept 11 2001, follow the U.S. and also into Iraq and Afghanistan. If you think differently then [in my opinion] you are much mistaken. It is so easy to criticize (or criticise) and say how you would do things differently if you were in power but that is just blowing smoke.

If David Cameron (GOD FORBID)[sorry for shouting] or any other Tory is ever elected P.M. again then who knows where we will be. Gordon Brown may not be the person to lead Britain forward, and I don't think he is, but David Cameron or any other Tory is lower on the list.

I don't care if anyone disagrees with this, these are my opinions. Is this too political?

 

[Pumbaa]

I get the impression that you are one of these people that would vote for your chosen party no matter what they do, for me it is 1997 again and we need some kind of change because the current lot don't seem to be any use. I am hoping I will get a decent candidate that will represent the area, but maybe to idealistic here! I know I have gone a little off topic but the PFI debt are worrying, they will drain the country as we must pay them all so the borrowing was hidden by Mr Brown.

Nada. I hate New Labour, or Blue Labour. It just so happens that they still come out a mile better than the Tories. I didn't vote Labour in the last election, nor in the Europeans.

Old Timer : For me it is an exact replay of 1979, union disputes, economy screwed. Companies failing, pulic spending out of control, taxation up, inflation on the upswards path, unemployment on the upwards path......................

Labour 1979, Labour 2009....nothing changes

There are some similarities, but they are far outweighed by the differences. Both require a different approach. Whilst Thatcher's economic policies divide us, both sides agree that they could have been done far better, and we may not have been feeling the after effects still some 25 years later.

Old Timer : The Irish have implemented a budget that has been praised by most economic experts as the correct response.

Yes, it was the correct response for IRELAND, and even then half the economic sector still think it was not as suitable as it could have easily been. No other country in the world is as dependant as we were on our financial services industry. If you pull the biggest sector out of the economy, we are going to feel it a lot harder than others. No-one disagrees that Govt line has been the best, several aspects were ill-thought through, but it was best one available.

Flymo : not at all
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This is also highly interesting:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/dec/17/mystery-tony-blairs-money-solved