Blockade to allow Waterloo upgrade to take place, resulting in timetable changes

[swt_passenger]

The passengers know how easy it is.

What's more ridiculous though is that "letting off steam" on twitter is one thing, but what passes for BBC journalism nowadays is to just copy and paste those random ignorant tweets onto their website.

 

[infobleep]

I say what I normally say re: these rants: I'd rather they let off steam on twitter than taking it out on front-line staff. The former can be safely ignored where appropriate.

If I'm honest, I do think people's expectations could have been managed better, especially in the aftermath of the derailment, however possibly due to how the first couple of weeks went, NR were scared of any further negative publicity, and buried their head in the sand a little.

The project has by and large gone well, and customers mostly understanding (ignoring obsessive local rags which were only interested in headlines which turn people's heads). NR should be able to take many positives (and lessons, of course) away with them.

I think a lot of organisations are scared of anything negative coming out. I think it's inherently human. Saying that, when I did a masters dissertation, I documented everything good and bad. I was then told that it came across to negativelya and hindered the message that the overall outcome was positive.

Thus I put the negatives in an appendix. Detail was there but it wasn't jumping out at you and detracting from the overall positive conclusion.

Maybe Network Rail could have done something similar.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does the new track layout make it more likely that you are going to be held at the last signal on the UP SLOW? It's only one day, and I'm only on my pnb but I am wondering. Do any other drivers have a view on this? Haven't got past that last signal without having to stop yet.

Sounds a bit like what often happens when arriving on the UMF.

Isn't the idea in the future, i.e. when all 24 platforms are routinely available, to operate main suburbans into all six of the 10 car platforms, which is supposed to counteract the fact that the new layout is slightly limiting?

I suppose 2 into 6 will always have many conflicting moves, it will possibly take a while for signallers to find the optimum way to use them, and possibly tweak the timings.

Incidentally, in the event of a "logjam" can a train from say P5 or P6 leave via the down main fast and then cross over behind an incoming train onto the down main slow, and hopefully before Vauxhall?

 

[RichardN]

Are any extra suburban services now being strengthened now that all the Waterloo platforms can take 10 coaches?

Or will they still need to have the special 9xxx service codes for the 10 coach suburban services?

 

[ijmad]

Are any extra suburban services now being strengthened now that all the Waterloo platforms can take 10 coaches?

Or will they still need to have the special 9xxx service codes for the 10 coach suburban services?

December '17 timetable change I'd heard...

 

[MarkyT]

Incidentally, in the event of a "logjam" can a train from say P5 or P6 leave via the down main fast and then cross over behind an incoming train onto the down main slow, and hopefully before Vauxhall?

With the new layout, #4, #5 and #6 can access the down main fast and can then cross back over to the down main slow through the west crossings junction. I don't think such a move would be able to get around the rear of a stationary 10 car waiting at the up main slow home however, but as long as that was already moving in parallel to a lower numbered platform the manoeuvre should work as soon as the up train's tail has cleared west crossings.

 

[bb21]

Are any extra suburban services now being strengthened now that all the Waterloo platforms can take 10 coaches?

Or will they still need to have the special 9xxx service codes for the 10 coach suburban services?

Class 9s should not be needed from now on. They were only needed to help prevent those trains being routed into Platforms 1-4, which is no longer an issue.

The only other common occurrence of Class 9 on the Wessex route is now for when Class 153s are scheduled through Salisbury.

 

[rj90]

With the new layout, #4, #5 and #6 can access the down main fast and can then cross back over to the down main slow through the west crossings junction. I don't think such a move would be able to get around the rear of a stationary 10 car waiting at the up main slow home however, but as long as that was already moving in parallel to a lower numbered platform the manoeuvre should work as soon as the up train's tail has cleared west crossings.

Does the new track layout make it more likely that you are going to be held at the last signal on the UP SLOW? It's only one day, and I'm only on my pnb but I am wondering. Do any other drivers have a view on this? Haven't got past that last signal without having to stop yet.

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There's currently a flank protection limitation designed into the interlocking, but it can be removed and is going to be. This stops trains being routed into 4/5/6 from w2 and 7/8/9 from w4 at the same time despite it being ok. Similar applies for some routes out of the platform.

With regard to using west crossings - they are only 15mph and all of it is double slips so it won't be used for timetabled services. Further down the line a three line crossover might get installed between Waterloo and Vauxhall with a much higher speed - but this is pure conjecture on my part and I have never heard it mentioned, it's certainly not in scope. In reality once the WIT is open things will flow much more freely. Plus, all the timetable modelling says it will work as installed with no future modifications required to deliver the aspired timetable - and in reality the signallers at Wimbledon are able to achieve more than the modellers suggest (models and SWT said the timetable wasn't achievable with the extra closure of P10 and DMF/UMF to west crossings)

 

[MartinB1]

There's currently a flank protection limitation designed into the interlocking, but it can be removed and is going to be. This stops trains being routed into 4/5/6 from w2 and 7/8/9 from w4 at the same time despite it being ok. Similar applies for some routes out of the platform.

With regard to using west crossings - they are only 15mph and all of it is double slips so it won't be used for timetabled services. Further down the line a three line crossover might get installed between Waterloo and Vauxhall with a much higher speed - but this is pure conjecture on my part and I have never heard it mentioned, it's certainly not in scope. In reality once the WIT is open things will flow much more freely. Plus, all the timetable modelling says it will work as installed with no future modifications required to deliver the aspired timetable - and in reality the signallers at Wimbledon are able to achieve more than the modellers suggest (models and SWT said the timetable wasn't achievable with the extra closure of P10 and DMF/UMF to west crossings)

Regarding the flank protection that's very interesting, I'm presuming this will be in place whilst they develop confidence in the system? Do you know how long this is likely to be in place for?

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[Juniper Driver]

Class 9s should not be needed from now on. They were only needed to help prevent those trains being routed into Platforms 1-4, which is no longer an issue.

The only other common occurrence of Class 9 on the Wessex route is now for when Class 153s are scheduled through Salisbury.

They stopped doing that during the upgrade AFAIK.I didn't work many 455/456 combos (one day I think) though as I was down the main line mainly although I did work two ten car 458's down to Reading.(Oh you explained why during the upgrade)(doh)

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/...loo-chaos-is-just-unforgiveable-a3614336.html

That train didn't derail.It was just made up.:roll:

That's a nice piece.Not.

But no one could prepare us for the shambles it has become, with nearly every day seeing new delays, usually passed off as “signal failures”, leading up to Tuesday’s derailment.:roll:

 

[ijmad]

We have been advised that access is required at London Waterloo station from 22:45 to work on signalling equipment, this access will limit the number of platforms trains can use. As a result trains coming into London Waterloo will now be delayed by up to 15 minutes as they wait for platforms to become available.

Hmmmm!

 

[Goldfish62]

Probably better to over-estimate the works...

I.E add an extra week over to allow extra leeway...That's if they didn't anyway.

Must admit I find the same old drivel annoying.I wouldn't mind so much if they actually knew anything about extending platform at Waterloo and what it involves.

I actually thought Network Rail did very well

The passengers will let of steam when they feel like it I had it during the works.The more front line staff get it worse obviously.(I mean Guards and Station Staff.)

So do you never complain about anything you pay for and not get the service or goods you expected? I dare say that you probably do and are not interested in the complexities behind what has gone wrong.

Have some understanding of punters. Rail travel for commuting is a distress purchase. It's expensive. People are going to rant when it goes wrong. Personally I find some of the twitter rants very funny.

 

[Sean Emmett]

December '17 timetable change I'd heard...

Reading line trains back to 450s with 456s on the Ascot - Guildford shuttle.

The 17.54 WAT - FNH ran pretty much to time yesterday as far as Ascot anyway. Much less crowded than the 17.50 WAT - RDG.

 

[DerekC]

This adds to the worry:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-near-london-waterloo-station-15-august-2017

Those old enough to remember Clapham will have the cold shivers!

 

[Juniper Driver]

Hmmmm!

What is the problem with that?

If they've got additional work to do,they have additional work to do.

So do you never complain about anything you pay for and not get the service or goods you expected? I dare say that you probably do and are not interested in the complexities behind what has gone wrong.

Have some understanding of punters. Rail travel for commuting is a distress purchase. It's expensive. People are going to rant when it goes wrong. Personally I find some of the twitter rants very funny.

I probably have more understanding than you will ever imagine.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Ditto. It never ceases to amaze me how the commuters always seem to think that they can do better than anyone else including the people who actually run the business.

This criticism comes from people who cannot keep their grubby hands off passcoms, egresses, ignore quiet coaches, pick the locks of locked toilets amongst other things and then whinge and whine about it on Sochal Meeja.

Passengers are more often than not the primary cause of delays and cancellation due to their own actions.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

This adds to the worry:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-near-london-waterloo-station-15-august-2017

Those old enough to remember Clapham will have the cold shivers!

Hmm, yes it does. in the case of Clapham a rogue live wire which should have been removed or isolated caused a false proceed aspect to be displayed. As a result of that incident the Hidden regulations on working times was introduced which are entrenched in traincrew rosters and diagrams. I myself have had to delay trains in order to adhere to break requirements etc

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Passengers are more often than not the primary cause of delays and cancellation due to their own actions.

Yup, especially on a Saturday night!!

 

[Juniper Driver]

Hmm, yes it does. in the case of Clapham a rogue live wire which should have been removed or isolated caused a false proceed aspect to be displayed. As a result of that incident the Hidden regulations on working times was introduced which are entrenched in traincrew rosters and diagrams. I myself have had to delay trains in order to adhere to break requirements etc

I couldn't work a train back from Bournemouth during the blockade as I'd wandered into hidden.(had to pass back)

I'd worked a train down there as they were desperate and had no one to work it with less than 20 mins to spare...I made over two hours overtime which I didn't want as I don't want overtime and don't work rest days...but people forget this,conveniently.

Under normal scenario of this turn I'd have been home at 1430 (at the normal latest without overtime)...I got home at 1730.

 

[FOH]

This adds to the worry:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-near-london-waterloo-station-15-august-2017

Those old enough to remember Clapham will have the cold shivers!

IIRC the cause of continual signal failures on the London Bridge upgrade turned out to be a cross wired cable

 

[Bald Rick]

IIRC the cause of continual signal failures on the London Bridge upgrade turned out to be a cross wired cable

You recall incorrectly. There was one example of this in September 2014, and it was a fail safe.

 

[hwl]

IIRC the cause of continual signal failures on the London Bridge upgrade turned out to be a cross wired cable

The earthing of the lights and mains sockets in one of the interlocking containers proved much more problematic. Just because the cable is green and yellow doesn't mean you should or can connect them all up...

 

[NSEFAN]

The earthing of the lights and mains sockets in one of the interlocking containers proved much more problematic. Just because the cable is green and yellow doesn't mean you should or can connect them all up...

A case of Earth not being the same potential in various locations?

 

[hwl]

This adds to the worry:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-near-london-waterloo-station-15-august-2017

Those old enough to remember Clapham will have the cold shivers!

Another part of the WARS scheme of the 1980s and done under a lot of time and cost pressures.

I am slightly surprised replacement of the existing interlocking at 30
+ years old wasn't considered as an alternative given the effort needed to modify it. Some of the similar vintage stuff on the Sussex side hasn't lasted well and is being replaced.

 

[RichardN]

A case of Earth not being the same potential in various locations?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity)

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I couldn't work a train back from Bournemouth during the blockade as I'd wandered into hidden.(had to pass back)

? Ended up on a bit/route you don't sign?

 

[Hellzapoppin]

Hmm, yes it does. in the case of Clapham a rogue live wire which should have been removed or isolated caused a false proceed aspect to be displayed. As a result of that incident the Hidden regulations on working times was introduced which are entrenched in traincrew rosters and diagrams. I myself have had to delay trains in order to adhere to break requirements etc

I think you'll find that Hidden wasn't regulations but recommendations.

 

[Bald Rick]

I am slightly surprised replacement of the existing interlocking at 30
+ years old wasn't considered as an alternative given the effort needed to modify it. Some of the similar vintage stuff on the Sussex side hasn't lasted well and is being replaced.

It was considered. Big bill though. Particularly as the changes - although large - aren't massive. Some of the earlier stages of London Bridge have almost been as large in terms of new relay interlockings.

Besides the interlockings done in the late 80s Waterloo resignalling are in far better nick than those done for Victroia resignalling nearly a decade earlier.

 

[Juniper Driver]

? Ended up on a bit/route you don't sign?

No.If I had worked the train back I would have done over 12 hours on shift so it wasn't possible.

 

[FOH]

The earthing of the lights and mains sockets in one of the interlocking containers proved much more problematic. Just because the cable is green and yellow doesn't mean you should or can connect them all up...

Ah yes that rings a bell now, faulty earthing which caused signal failures for a couple of months