Bolton to London services

[lejog]

Is there scope and demand to extend one of the Manchester to London services to start from Bolton every hour and is there much scope to have them stop at Salford Crescent?

Given there will be IIRC 12tph (+freight) through the Castlefield corridor after May 18 and that the Transport and Works Act Order for Platforms 15/16 at Piccadilly has been sitting on a desk in Whitehall for 2 years, is there really spare capacity for another service? Northern have not been allowed to run a Todmorden Curve to Airport service and residents of Southport would like a Piccadilly service reinstated, should Bolton get a 5th tph to Piccadilly while East Lancs and Southport get none?

I'm not sure that there is even capacity for 1tpd, given these would presumably be in the peaks.

 

[pemma]

and residents of Southport would like a Piccadilly service reinstated

That's down to Northern changing service provision to make maximum use of overhead wires between Bolton and Manchester, opposed to a pathing problem.

 

[MG11]

Platform 2 is a bay platform.....which wont cope with more than 4 coaches......and if by some chance a pendolino is parked there, it would foul 2 junctions and a main running line....not going to happen

A four car Voyager would fit.

 

[edwin_m]

This isn't a world away from the VTEC "one each way" service Sunderland to Kings Cross. 15 mins (0525-0540) and 17 mins (2320-2337) sitting in the station respectively...

There are some others, EMT's Lincoln service for example. Basically brings a unit out of depot earlier for a diagram that otherwise wouldn't start until relatively late, with the opposite in the evening.

Given there will be IIRC 12tph (+freight) through the Castlefield corridor after May 18 and that the Transport and Works Act Order for Platforms 15/16 at Piccadilly has been sitting on a desk in Whitehall for 2 years, is there really spare capacity for another service? Northern have not been allowed to run a Todmorden Curve to Airport service and residents of Southport would like a Piccadilly service reinstated, should Bolton get a 5th tph to Piccadilly while East Lancs and Southport get none?

I'm not sure that there is even capacity for 1tpd, given these would presumably be in the peaks.

Worth noting that P15/16 at Piccadilly probably wouldn't be long enough for a Pendolino and I think the scheme (if it happens) similarly shortens 13 and 14.

I imagine any path into Manchester would either be pre-peak in the morning or would replace a Northern path allowing them to double up another service. The evening working would most likely be after the peak, as this is when long-distance units start coming off diagrams.

 

[Starmill]

Hey - whoa whoa whoa whoa! Say what now? Virgin are planning direct services to Bolton??!

It has been under consideration since at least 2012. Initially the idea was to commence the service with Voyagers pending electrification.

 

[Chester1]

There are some others, EMT's Lincoln service for example. Basically brings a unit out of depot earlier for a diagram that otherwise wouldn't start until relatively late, with the opposite in the evening.

Worth noting that P15/16 at Piccadilly probably wouldn't be long enough for a Pendolino and I think the scheme (if it happens) similarly shortens 13 and 14.

I imagine any path into Manchester would either be pre-peak in the morning or would replace a Northern path allowing them to double up another service. The evening working would most likely be after the peak, as this is when long-distance units start coming off diagrams.

It has been under consideration since at least 2012. Initially the idea was to commence the service with Voyagers pending electrification.

It should have been introduced with Voyagers years ago. They could have swapped with a Pendolino on London-Birmingham-Scotland services and another double Voyager swap again to run an evening London-Bolton service. 1tpd service shouldn't be hard to path before the morning peak and after the evening peak. While operationally awkward running one London service a day has political benefits and can test the demand for more services.

 

[Philip]

That's down to Northern changing service provision to make maximum use of overhead wires between Bolton and Manchester, opposed to a pathing problem.

But the replacement service (the Cumbria-Wigan-Airport service) will still be a diesel so nothing is really gained in that sense?

Bolton is a very busy station and so are the trains between there and Manchester. I don't think 5 trains per hour into Piccadilly is overkill in any way. In fact you could provably run a DART or Tube style frequency with 8-coach trains and the trains would probably still be fairly busy during the day and definitely in the peaks.

It's bad enough that the Barrow service will soon be diverted away from Bolton and through the Chat Moss, regardless of the route the Scotland trains will be taking. If they wanted Wigan to retain a direct fast Airport service then that's fine, but the schedule should have been for calls at Wigan NW, Bolton and Salford, even if it adds a mighty 5 or 10 minutes (if that?) to the journey compared to via Chat Moss.

 

[pemma]

But the replacement service (the Cumbria-Wigan-Airport service) will still be a diesel so nothing is really gained in that sense?

You're talking about something completely different. Lejog was talking about the Southport to Airport service, the replacement for that is a Wigan to BOLTON to Piccadilly to Alderley Edge service, which would be electric if Network Rail weren't behind in wiring and even with the electrification delays it will get a 319 with a diesel engine fitted, meaning Bolton will still benefit from 319s replacing 142s and 150s even without all the wiring being finished.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Post HS2, aren't some Glasgow-London services supposed to route Preston-Bolton-Manchester?

 

[The Planner]

Post HS2, aren't some Glasgow-London services supposed to route Preston-Bolton-Manchester?

No one knows yet, there are no firm plans at all.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hey - whoa whoa whoa whoa! Say what now? Virgin are planning direct services to Bolton??!

VT allegedly bid for a 1-a-day service to Bolton in the aborted 2012 franchise bid.
The DfT has never suggested the franchise should be extended to Bolton (which they did for Blackpool/Shrewsbury).
VT are not going to start a service within a year or so of the end of the current franchise.
We'll have to see what comes out of the WCP bids next year, but I doubt Bolton is a priority.
VT will be running early/late ECS 390s through Bolton after electrification, to/from Longsight depot (currently routed via Golborne).

 

[Ianno87]

It should have been introduced with Voyagers years ago. They could have swapped with a Pendolino on London-Birmingham-Scotland services and another double Voyager swap again to run an evening London-Bolton service. 1tpd service shouldn't be hard to path before the morning peak and after the evening peak. While operationally awkward running one London service a day has political benefits and can test the demand for more services.

Not quite that straightforward - Manchester VT crews don't sign Voyagers.

 

[Ianno87]

A four car Voyager would fit.

Even if it did fit (I'm not convinced...) a 4 car Voyager ain't gonna cope with Manchester-Euston passenger loadings...

 

[MG11]

Even if it did fit (I'm not convinced...) a 4 car Voyager ain't gonna cope with Manchester-Euston passenger loadings...

Piccadilly-Euston have 2 trains per hour, including 11 coach Pendolinos, so the Bolton services would really only attract people to/from Bolton. Bolton is a small town, cities like Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield regularly see 4 car Meridians and cope well.

 

[Ianno87]

Piccadilly-Euston have 2 trains per hour, including 11 coach Pendolinos, so the Bolton services would really only attract people to/from Bolton. Bolton is a small town, cities like Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield regularly see 4 car Meridians and cope well.

Bolton services would almost certainly run via, and call at, Manchester Piccadilly on the way. Bolton-London demand is never going to justify its own train without picking up other demand on route (i.e. as an extension of a Piccadilly terminator)

And Notts, Derby and Sheffield aren't *only* served by 4 car Meridians - all have typically at least an hourly 7 car HST or 7 car Meridian to meet demand. (4 cars are generally on the slower trains that are more about serving intermediate flows)

Plus Bolton ain't that small - the borough has a population in excess of 260,000!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Piccadilly-Euston have 2 trains per hour, including 11 coach Pendolinos, so the Bolton services would really only attract people to/from Bolton. Bolton is a small town, cities like Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield regularly see 4 car Meridians and cope well.

Unless you ran it something daft like Stoke right away Bolton you would still definitely attract Manchester punters, regardless of the destination stated. Given the recurring talk of a fourth Manchester-Euston service per hour I suspect nobody is in a position to annihilate capacity or cape one of those services.

Oh, and Bolton isn't a 'small town', it's knocking on 130,000 residents which puts it easily within the largest towns in the UK, and larger than a lot of cities!

(Edit - that population is for Bolton as a standalone town, not the borough!)

 

[pemma]

Piccadilly-Euston have 2 trains per hour

Actually it's 3tph between Manchester and London - 2tph via Stoke and 1tph via Crewe.

 

[Chester1]

Not quite that straightforward - Manchester VT crews don't sign Voyagers.

How difficult would it be for them to sign both Voyagers and Pendolinos?

 

[PR1Berske]

And platform 5? The other thought is a Preston to London via Chorley, Bolton and Manchester if Bolton can't accommodate terminating long trains.

I imagine even using a reopened platform 7 wouldn't be possible for that.

 

[Philip]

Shouldn't forget too that for many years the Cross Country route had bi-hourly direct trains between Bolton and the West Midlands/South of England, so there must have been demand even back then for direct links from Bolton to points south beyond Manchester.

 

[pemma]

Or it was simply operational convenience like the current Southport to Chester Sunday services, opposed to there being demand for a Bolton to Chester service on a Sunday but not Mon to Sat.

 

[Philip]

Or it was simply operational convenience like the current Southport to Chester Sunday services, opposed to there being demand for a Bolton to Chester service on a Sunday but not Mon to Sat.

Do you actually know if there is little demand for Bolton to Chester Sunday services? There were direct Bolton to Chester hourly trains Mon-Sat in the 90s. As stated above, Bolton is a very large town and bigger than some cities, so it's quite logical that there is a lot of demand for direct services to Chester and to London and the West Midlands conurbation.

 

[Starmill]

Bolton to Chester is usually quicker via Wigan than via Manchester.

 

[30907]

Do you actually know if there is little demand for Bolton to Chester Sunday services? There were direct Bolton to Chester hourly trains Mon-Sat in the 90s. As stated above, Bolton is a very large town and bigger than some cities, so it's quite logical that there is a lot of demand for direct services to Chester and to London and the West Midlands conurbation.

Depends what you mean by "little." In the grand scheme of things it will be dwarfed by the demand for central Manchester. The most significant cross Manchester flow, and one whether through trains are particularly important, is likely to be Airport traffic.

Back to the Cross Country services. These were trying to do several things at once:
provide a more frequent Manchester-Scotland service than a standalone one warranted;
provide additional Birmingham-Scotland services
replace dividing at Carstairs (IIRC)
serve Piccadilly in preference to Victoria
reduce terminal costs

Additional journey opportunities like (eg) Bolton-Bournemouth would have been marginal, however useful to individuals.

 

[pemma]

Do you actually know if there is little demand for Bolton to Chester Sunday services? There were direct Bolton to Chester hourly trains Mon-Sat in the 90s. As stated above, Bolton is a very large town and bigger than some cities, so it's quite logical that there is a lot of demand for direct services to Chester and to London and the West Midlands conurbation.

You seemed to be making the argument that because XC services from Scotland to Manchester were joined on to those from Manchester to Reading that it automatically meant there was demand from Bolton to stations beyond Stockport. I was giving a different example to try to illustrate why Bolton may have a through service for operational convenience opposed to due to demand from Bolton.

The regular Chester to Southport service you mention was pre-Manchester Airport station opening. Are you saying those in Bolton were unhappy when Southport services were instead sent to Manchester Airport? If so does Bolton need a reduction in direct Airport services, in favour of services to other destinations?

 

[Philip]

The regular Chester to Southport service you mention was pre-Manchester Airport station opening. Are you saying those in Bolton were unhappy when Southport services were instead sent to Manchester Airport? If so does Bolton need a reduction in direct Airport services, in favour of services to other destinations?

Firstly I don't believe that is quite true, since Manchester Airport Station opened in 1993 and the Bolton to Chester service was still running in 1995 and quite possibly up to 1997 or so. It must have been in addition for a couple of years if Southport to Airport services started immediately.

Apart from that, though, Bolton had two other hourly Airport services back then (and frequently formed of 4-coach Sprinters), in addition to the Southport, so it may well have been more logical to have diverted one of them to form the Chester stopping train, if running it as an extra service wasn't possible.

 

[roversfan2001]

Hey - whoa whoa whoa whoa! Say what now? Virgin are planning direct services to Bolton??!

It's been talked about for at least 5 years.

 

[pemma]

Firstly I don't believe that is quite true, since Manchester Airport Station opened in 1993 and the Bolton to Chester service was still running in 1995 and quite possibly up to 1997 or so. It must have been in addition for a couple of years if Southport to Airport services started immediately.

Apart from that, though, Bolton had two other hourly Airport services back then (and frequently formed of 4-coach Sprinters), in addition to the Southport, so it may well have been more logical to have diverted one of them to form the Chester stopping train, if running it as an extra service wasn't possible.

The service was introduced pre-Manchester Airport station opening. I'm not sure if it was when Chester services got diverted via Stockport ahead of the Metrolink conversion or whether it was later. Services to the Airport were built up over time, rather than all starting from the day the Airport station opened.

Which other service are you referring to? The Cumbria-Airport services were introduced later than Southport-Airport and alternate Blackpool services went to Buxton, where they continued to go to until 2008.

 

[Philip]

The service was introduced pre-Manchester Airport station opening. I'm not sure if it was when Chester services got diverted via Stockport ahead of the Metrolink conversion or whether it was later. Services to the Airport were built up over time, rather than all starting from the day the Airport station opened.

Which other service are you referring to? The Cumbria-Airport services were introduced later than Southport-Airport and alternate Blackpool services went to Buxton, where they continued to go to until 2008.

I'm referring to the Blackpool and Cumbria to Airport services, both of which were running by 1997, possibly a couple of years before that.

 

[pemma]

I'm referring to the Blackpool and Cumbria to Airport services, both of which were running by 1997, possibly a couple of years before that.

I thought the Airport to Cumbria services were introduced by North Western Trains, which meant they couldn't have been introduced before 1997.