Borderlands line: alternatives to class 230 operation and any other strategies to improve reliability?

[Bob Price]

Problem is that technology wasn't around at the time the TfW bid happened. The long term plan was to get into Liverpool so they needed a stopgap. They obviously looked at options and a 230 micro fleet was what was bid in the franchise by Kelios. In a few years it is likely battery technology will have advanced and potentially 777's can be leased to run the line.

 

[sd0733]

Are you suggesting that 197s cannot match the performance of 150s ? I find that difficult to believe. From what I understand, modern DMUs with six speed gearboxes can outperform Voith hydraulic drives in terms of acceleration. I have no doubt though that TfW are trying to squeeze a fifty five minute journey into an hourly clockface timetable, which will only work some of the time.

From when the original route clearance was done a 197 it was thought from the performance on the route that it would lose between 10 and 15 minutes on a round trip between Bidston and Wrexham.
That was in the early days when everyone was unfamiliar so I'm sure could be tightened up slightly but not enough to run the current timetable.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

Are you suggesting that 197s cannot match the performance of 150s ? I find that difficult to believe. From what I understand, modern DMUs with six speed gearboxes can outperform Voith hydraulic drives in terms of acceleration. I have no doubt though that TfW are trying to squeeze a fifty five minute journey into an hourly clockface timetable, which will only work some of the time

The 230 reliability is not robust enough and after well over two years of "testing" they simple cannot cut the mustard. TfW need to bin them off and maybe just extend the 197 production line by three more. TfW will not ever save any face, so just scrap them and move forward.

No i’m not suggesting that. The train crews are. Clearly the 197s are more suitable for long distance where they are faster than 158s but on the Bidston line with it’s short stops and very little station time they aren’t suited from what the crews say with the way the ASDO works and they way they perform. At the moment 150s are the only answer really, 153s are being retained for the HOW so i don’t see why some 150s can’t be.

 

[Caaardiff]

Enough is enough. TFW need to start making proper decisions. I feel for the person who has been tasked with looking after the line and trying to improve things. It all boils down to the 230's.
If there is a determination for the 230's to actually work reliably, then pull them from service and get whatever overhaul works need doing to get them working properly. Keeping them in service day after day with them constantly failing with the same problem is not fixing the issue, it's covering heart surgery up with a plaster.
It's only 2 150's required for the route, and there's already 1 on there. The route should be 150's until the 230's work reliably enough or a replacement is found.

 

[driverd]

No i’m not suggesting that. The train crews are. Clearly the 197s are more suitable for long distance where they are faster than 158s but on the Bidston line with it’s short stops and very little station time they aren’t suited from what the crews say with the way the ASDO works and they way they perform. At the moment 150s are the only answer really, 153s are being retained for the HOW so i don’t see why some 150s can’t be.

Unless the 197s are world's apart from, and come with about 25% the traction power of a 195, this is absolute nonsense.

Crew moaning is just the norm. It takes a little while to get used to the new tech (ASDO, basically) - but once crews are familiar with it, the train itself, the systems and the method of work is significantly quicker than the sprinters (not withstanding some significant design difference between the two CAF fleets, which im under the informed impression there is not). Just take a look at the reduction in journey times on the Calder valley (on both the stoppers and express workings). The difference is particularly prevalent when a 150 is subbed for a 195.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

Unless the 197s are world's apart from, and come with about 25% the traction power of a 195, this is absolute nonsense.

Crew moaning is just the norm. It takes a little while to get used to the new tech (ASDO, basically) - but once crews are familiar with it, the train itself, the systems and the method of work is significantly quicker than the sprinters (not withstanding some significant design difference between the two CAF fleets, which im under the informed impression there is not). Just take a look at the reduction in journey times on the Calder valley (on both the stoppers and express workings). The difference is particularly prevalent when a 150 is subbed for a 195.

No one is denying the 197 performance on the mainline routes, they are noticeable quicker than 150/158/175 but on a specific route such as Wrexham to Bidston they don’t appear to be the answer or they would probably be getting used and until one is tried out we won’t really find out

 

[driverd]

No one is denying the 197 performance on the mainline routes, they are noticeable quicker than 150/158/175 but on a specific route such as Wrexham to Bidston they don’t appear to be the answer or they would probably be getting used and until one is tried out we won’t really find out

How, exactly, would you propose a unit that accelerates quicker, brakes quicker, has a quicker door cycle and more room to board passengers internally is going to be slower than existing stock?

There isn't a single route I'm familiar with at Northern where a 150 is faster than a 195 worked by a familiar crew. They're excellent units for start/stop work and arguably more suited to that than the long distance runs.

 

[craigybagel]

How, exactly, would you propose a unit that accelerates quicker, brakes quicker, has a quicker door cycle and more room to board passengers internally is going to be slower than existing stock?

There isn't a single route I'm familiar with at Northern where a 150 is faster than a 195 worked by a familiar crew. They're excellent units for start/stop work and arguably more suited to that than the long distance runs.

I'm not entirely sure the door cycle is quicker than on a 150. It does seem to take a while, even at stations where few people are getting on or off. And whilst it's true that the brakes are fantastic, they aren't great for precision stopping at short platforms - the lowest setting is just too strong for that. And there's a lot of short platforms on the Bidston line. As great as their performance is on other routes (and as a driver,I love them), I can see why they'd struggle here. It would be like driving a sports car through a medieval city

 

[L401CJF]

I'm not entirely sure the door cycle is quicker than on a 150. It does seem to take a while, even at stations where few people are getting on or off. And whilst it's true that the brakes are fantastic, they aren't great for precision stopping at short platforms - the lowest setting is just too strong for that. And there's a lot of short platforms on the Bidston line. As great as their performance is on other routes (and as a driver,I love them), I can see why they'd struggle here. It would be like driving a sports car through a medieval city

I've heard some drivers say they often take a while to pull away from a stand too between taking power and actually moving. Something to do with the gearbox faffing around I think? Can't remember exactly what was said.

 

[driverd]

I'm not entirely sure the door cycle is quicker than on a 150. It does seem to take a while, even at stations where few people are getting on or off. And whilst it's true that the brakes are fantastic, they aren't great for precision stopping at short platforms - the lowest setting is just too strong for that. And there's a lot of short platforms on the Bidston line. As great as their performance is on other routes (and as a driver,I love them), I can see why they'd struggle here. It would be like driving a sports car through a medieval city

It's crew familiarity. A few of my conductor colleagues now praise the 195s for being their fastest door cycle (when ASDO works) - taken from the mouth of those who time such things

You get used to the brakes. 195s were a bit tricky at first but once you're comfortable with hitting the platform 5-10mph faster, they stop very predictably. 195s work a treat for stopping in a train length if you hit a platform just as the regen:disk blend kicks in (ie: 24mph).

 

[Peter Sarf]

Or look for an alternative option and go for Battery 777 and shift the line to Merseyrail with 3rd rail fast chaging at stations it stops at, which are not live when trains are not there. 777V1 give commuter door opening for quicker exits and entry seen in underground stations

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2023 ==

It would be good to run a 777 to Dee Marsh junction from Bidston as a trial

Note that the 777s are not yet proving to be reliable. Worse still the battery 777s have done very little so far.

Enough is enough. TFW need to start making proper decisions. I feel for the person who has been tasked with looking after the line and trying to improve things. It all boils down to the 230's.
If there is a determination for the 230's to actually work reliably, then pull them from service and get whatever overhaul works need doing to get them working properly. Keeping them in service day after day with them constantly failing with the same problem is not fixing the issue, it's covering heart surgery up with a plaster.
It's only 2 150's required for the route, and there's already 1 on there. The route should be 150's until the 230's work reliably enough or a replacement is found.

Since there is a shortage of DMUs at TfW and elsewhere I think the choice is persevere with the 230s until problems are resolved (if/when !) or revert to a bus service for goodness knows how long. A replacement train fleet sounds good but who is going to pay ?.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

It's crew familiarity. A few of my conductor colleagues now praise the 195s for being their fastest door cycle (when ASDO works) - taken from the mouth of those who time such things

You get used to the brakes. 195s were a bit tricky at first but once you're comfortable with hitting the platform 5-10mph faster, they stop very predictably. 195s work a treat for stopping in a train length if you hit a platform just as the regen:disk blend kicks in (ie: 24mph).

Are you familiar with the Bidston route? Maybe you could come and sit on the train with the politicians and solve all the problems.

News on todays 230 and you may be surprised to hear that is has failed.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Note that the 777s are not yet proving to be reliable. Worse still the battery 777s have done very little so far.

Since there is a shortage of DMUs at TfW and elsewhere I think the choice is persevere with the 230s until problems are resolved (if/when !) or revert to a bus service for goodness knows how long. A replacement train fleet sounds good but who is going to pay ?.

Yes I know of the problems with the 777 so far, when entering passenger service, that are being resolved But rather than invest in more 197s, it would be much more useful (if they ended making an investment in a new train) to have a train that is designed to go around the Merseyrail loop that could not be whipped off the line by South Wales management for their percieved more important lines

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes I know of the problems with the 777 so far, when entering passenger service, that are being resolved But rather than invest in more 197s, it would be much more useful (if they ended making an investment in a new train) to have a train that is designed to go around the Merseyrail loop that could not be whipped off the line by South Wales management for their percieved more important lines

How about a TfW train between Wrexham and Harwarden Bridge (or whatever the last station in Wales is) and Merseyrail from there to Liverpool?

Such an arrangement isn't unknown to Merseyrail.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

How about a TfW train between Wrexham and Harwarden Bridge (or whatever the last station in Wales is) and Merseyrail from there to Liverpool?

Such an arrangement isn't unknown to Merseyrail.

Well that defeats the object of people in Flintshire and Wrexham county borough accessing their nearest metropolitan area that provides many acute hospital services, national museums, entertainment venues. 777 v1 provide an option of direct underground services that 197 don't. Chester, Ellesmere Port and Ormskirk are all beyond the city region boundary

 

[driverd]

Are you familiar with the Bidston route? Maybe you could come and sit on the train with the politicians and solve all the problems.

I'm not, no - but the CAF Civity is a unit designed for stop/start, fast acceleration and braking, and as a direct replacement for the sprinter. If its anything at all like the 195, it'll be the most appropriate stock in the inventory of TfW (whereas, for example, a 170 would not).

It'll be perfectly suitable once crews get familiar with the handling etc - just as has been the experience for many at Northern.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

I'm not, no - but the CAF Civity is a unit designed for stop/start, fast acceleration and braking, and as a direct replacement for the sprinter. If its anything at all like the 195, it'll be the most appropriate stock in the inventory of TfW (whereas, for example, a 170 would not).

It'll be perfectly suitable once crews get familiar with the handling etc - just as has been the experience for many at Northern.

But a 197 is absolutely useless to run in an underground railway that should be the aspiration. Why change trains with a 10 to 15min delay when it is feasible to run a battery 777 straight into Liverpool

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2023 ==

David Powell of Merseytrave is reported to have said in Rail Engineer magazine

The initial off-third-rail section will be a one-mile extension from Kirkby to a new station at Headbolt Lane, but David says that there is an ambition to extend to other locations such as Wrexham. The first production Class 777 BEMU delivered an encouraging 135km range which shows what is possible.

Lets now get back to awful 230 roll out on this thread, that in affecting my commute.

 

[tomuk]

But a 197 is absolutely useless to run in an underground railway that should be the aspiration. Why change trains with a 10 to 15min delay when it is feasible to run a battery 777 straight into Liverpool

777s are a the long term aim the line needs to served in the meantime and arguably the passenger numbers need to be grown with better service provide to support the business case for moving to 777s. The 197s would be for the near term they can easily be cascaded elsewhere in the TfW network later to cover growth eleswher or replce the by then worn out 153s on the HOWL.

 

[craigybagel]

I've heard some drivers say they often take a while to pull away from a stand too between taking power and actually moving. Something to do with the gearbox faffing around I think? Can't remember exactly what was said.

When you move from neutral to forward/reverse, it takes the transmission 8 seconds to do it's thing before the train will move. Sometimes it doesn't always work, and you need to go back to neutral and forward again (with another 8 second wait).
I tend to switch from neutral to forwards when I hear the relays click from the guard hitting the close door button, that seems to time nicely.

There is a little delay in taking power before the unit moves, and some units need more power than others to overcome the parking brake, but in general it's not as bad as the delay with a 175.

You get used to the brakes. 195s were a bit tricky at first but once you're comfortable with hitting the platform 5-10mph faster, they stop very predictably. 195s work a treat for stopping in a train length if you hit a platform just as the regen:disk blend kicks in (ie: 24mph).

Try hitting the borderlands platforms at 24mph regularly and you won't enjoy a very long driving career.

As I understand it, the drivers who carried out the 197 trials on the Bidston line were DIs who've had plenty of time to get used to handling 197s, and who know the line very well. If they can't do it, I'm prepared to accept it's a unit issue rather than traincrew.

 

[Greybeard33]

From the GWR 230 thread:

VivaRails administrators have provided a progress report confirming that GWR has purchased the Marston Vale Units for the princely sum of £60k deemed to be the scrap value. The leasing company had them in the books for £3.3m. TfW must be crying in their milk having expended £30m on their 230's.

On that valuation, TfW could expect to realise about £10k per vehicle, or £150k total, if it decided to dispose of its Class 230 fleet. Thereby writing off 99.5% of the £30m it paid for them, not to mention the investment in support facilities and staff training.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You get used to the brakes. 195s were a bit tricky at first but once you're comfortable with hitting the platform 5-10mph faster, they stop very predictably. 195s work a treat for stopping in a train length if you hit a platform just as the regen:disk blend kicks in (ie: 24mph).

I had noticed that Northern drivers seem to drive 195s with a very Continental style "positive braking" approach, i.e. coming in quite quick but stopping on a sixpence - but thought I must be imagining it. Thanks for confirming I am not going mad

 

[driverd]

When you move from neutral to forward/reverse, it takes the transmission 8 seconds to do it's thing before the train will move.

Is it a PDP thing that you have to switch to neutral? We just leave them in forwards - saves 8 seconds a time.

Try hitting the borderlands platforms at 24mph regularly and you won't enjoy a very long driving career.

Well, a platform is a platform. As I say, a 195 will stop in an approx trains length from 24mph with the brake around 40%. If the platform is 48m or more, your driving career will last perfectly well. If they're shorter, obviously your 24 mph point needs to be further back, but it doesn't change the approach as such.

As I understand it, the drivers who carried out the 197 trials on the Bidston line were DIs who've had plenty of time to get used to handling 197s, and who know the line very well. If they can't do it, I'm prepared to accept it's a unit issue rather than traincrew.

Again, from our experience at Northern, if you come in slow they're a pain in the bum. Fanning the brake feels awful and plenty of drivers (including our DIs), took time to get used to the units and hitting platforms faster. The approach I got from our DTMs was "they're 30 years newer than our other trains, we'd expect better brakes and you can adapt your driving style to the technology". This may well be quite depot specific, but if its the attitude of the bloke/lady reading my download, I'm happy enough.

Obviously this may well come down to a difference in PDP/company approach, but the fundamental fact is, provided the 197 is substantially similar to the 195 in terms of power pack and brakes, 5 years experience tells me they're perfectly suitable, in particular, for rapid, start/stop work.

I had noticed that Northern drivers seem to drive 195s with a very Continental style "positive braking" approach, i.e. coming in quite quick but stopping on a sixpence - but thought I must be imagining it. Thanks for confirming I am not going mad

The units absolutely reward you and make for a far more smooth journey if you come in a bit hotter than you would in a sprinter. You get a substantial increase in retardation for a given % brake input at 24mph as the trains hit the disk brake, and if you hit platforms at 20mph (the traditional standard for many TOCs), they'll stop in less than a train length - as such you'd end up fanning the brake. 24mph or above (and there's a LOT of wriggle room in the above category), makes for a way smoother stop as you can apply a consistent % brake force all the way to a stand. The units kinda ask you to do it.

Anyway! Should probably loop this back to 230s - how many are out today?

 

[Phil from Mon]

Deleted as the original thread has re-opened, and it is more appropriate there

 

[craigybagel]

Is it a PDP thing that you have to switch to neutral? We just leave them in forwards - saves 8 seconds a time.

No, that choice is still left to us thankfully. I tend to leave it in forwards as well but it would explain the issues the conductor was told about.

Well, a platform is a platform. As I say, a 195 will stop in an approx trains length from 24mph with the brake around 40%. If the platform is 48m or more, your driving career will last perfectly well. If they're shorter, obviously your 24 mph point needs to be further back, but it doesn't change the approach as such.



Again, from our experience at Northern, if you come in slow they're a pain in the bum. Fanning the brake feels awful and plenty of drivers (including our DIs), took time to get used to the units and hitting platforms faster. The approach I got from our DTMs was "they're 30 years newer than our other trains, we'd expect better brakes and you can adapt your driving style to the technology". This may well be quite depot specific, but if its the attitude of the bloke/lady reading my download, I'm happy enough.

To be fair, I do agree with you on this. Where you have a long enough platform to do so, it's definitely best to come in fast enough to leave the brake in as much as possible. Bay platforms are a nightmare.

Obviously this may well come down to a difference in PDP/company approach, but the fundamental fact is, provided the 197 is substantially similar to the 195 in terms of power pack and brakes, 5 years experience tells me they're perfectly suitable, in particular, for rapid, start/stop work.



The units absolutely reward you and make for a far more smooth journey if you come in a bit hotter than you would in a sprinter. You get a substantial increase in retardation for a given % brake input at 24mph as the trains hit the disk brake, and if you hit platforms at 20mph (the traditional standard for many TOCs), they'll stop in less than a train length - as such you'd end up fanning the brake. 24mph or above (and there's a LOT of wriggle room in the above category), makes for a way smoother stop as you can apply a consistent % brake force all the way to a stand. The units kinda ask you to do it.

Anyway! Should probably loop this back to 230s - how many are out today?

I think the issue is the Borderlands isn't like most other lines. It's very unforgiving. To have so many challenging stations in quick succession (short platforms, stiff gradients, low adhesion) so closely spaced, and then a timetable that gives no recovery time all day long - any weakness in a trains design is going to be shown up here. Which, to bring it back to the 230s, will probably be why they were ordered rather than an additional 5 197s.

On paper they should have been perfect. And from what I've been told by the drivers who work them, when they're working they're great.

Unfortunately, it's a relatively experimental fleet, built by a small and now bankrupt manufacturer, and TfW are left in an impossible bind. Obviously something has to give, this current situation is untenable. But without a timetable change (both to allow them to keep to time and to release them from other routes) the solution isn't likely to be 197s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the issue is the Borderlands isn't like most other lines. It's very unforgiving. To have so many challenging stations in quick succession (short platforms, stiff gradients, low adhesion) so closely spaced, and then a timetable that gives no recovery time all day long - any weakness in a trains design is going to be shown up here. Which, to bring it back to the 230s, will probably be why they were ordered rather than an additional 5 197s.

It was always my impression that the 230s were because there was and is a significant potential for Merseyrail to take over some or all of the line within a 10-15 year horizon using battery units, and as such cheaper units with a shorter likely lifespan were chosen, as per the Marston Vale where East West Rail was/is to take over within that sort of horizon.

If a 150 or 153 can keep time, I can see no reason at all why a 197 couldn't, unless TfW are artificially throttling them (in which case they need not to for this line). A 195 absolutely could, they go like stink. 19x are certainly faster off the mark than all 15x, and due to not having the slow doors probably faster than a 230 too (which often couldn't keep to 153 timings on the Marston Vale).

 

[craigybagel]

It was always my impression that the 230s were because there was and is a significant potential for Merseyrail to take over some or all of the line within a 10-15 year horizon using battery units, and as such cheaper units with a shorter likely lifespan were chosen, as per the Marston Vale where East West Rail was/is to take over within that sort of horizon.

I suspect that was part of it too to be fair. No point splashing out on new units when there might be such big changes in the medium term

If a 150 or 153 can keep time, I can see no reason at all why a 197 couldn't, unless TfW are artificially throttling them (in which case they need not to for this line). A 195 absolutely could, they go like stink. 19x are certainly faster off the mark than all 15x, and due to not having the slow doors probably faster than a 230 too (which often couldn't keep to 153 timings on the Marston Vale).

153s can't keep to time, and 150s can only just. 197s are indeed faster off the line than a 150 - and recently on 90mph routes I've been able to set some astounding journey times without even making much effort. But they've been tried on Bidston and they don't work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

153s can't keep to time, and 150s can only just. 197s are indeed faster off the line than a 150 - and recently on 90mph routes I've been able to set some astounding journey times without even making much effort. But they've been tried on Bidston and they don't work.

So if they're indeed quicker than 150s (and I think that's indisputable), why don't they work? Slower doors? Something else slower about working them? Anything that could be modified?

 

[craigybagel]

So if they're indeed quicker than 150s (and I think that's indisputable), why don't they work? Slower doors? Something else slower about working them?

Good question. I was as confused as anyone else when I heard. My guess would be some combination of the dwell time (not so much the doors themselves but the time it takes to release and close again, I think that's a little slower than on a 150) and the challenges of precision stopping.

But I know the people on the 197 team. And if they say it can't be done, I'm quite happy to take them at their word

 

[sd0733]

Some further timing trials are scheduled to take place with a 197 next Thursday (headcodes 3Z59-3Z66) from Chester, 3 round trips Wrexham to Bidston and back to Chester.

 

[JetStream]

Something I've heard in passing, is apparently the current 230s are simply the prototypes; literally a beta (no jokes please..!). Similarly, I'm not surprised that besides certain issues (heat mainly?) the only real flaw with their running is the new technology, not the 40+ year old engineering.

One issue I've experienced this week however is that up at Birkenhead the trains are kept outside, so when the train swap happens in the afternoon, the 1630ish off Bidston was an absolute oven!