Boris Johnson Announcement Discussion - 10/05/20

[Skimpot flyer]

Aus and NZ are hardly the global hubs that London and NY are. Fewer inbound travelers, geographic isolation, low BAME populations of African descent and general low population densities will probably help also.

Even across Europe there’s a large difference in infection and case fatality rates. S and W Europe high, Eastern and N Europe much lower. Even across Germany by far the greatest number of cases are in the S and W states.

The differences are so large that “they did the right things” doesn’t cover it.

With respect, Heathrow is indeed a global hub, which means a lot of inbound passengers don’t leave the airport, they transit through and go on to their end destination. By being firm from an early stage, the Australian government’s policy of quarantining has undoubtedly been a big factor in keeping even asymptomatic persons from passing on the virus. As I’ve said on another thread, we returned to the UK from Oz last month, and were gobsmacked that we could go directly to Heathrow T4 tube station, board a train and potentially infect other passengers. Luckily, we were the only 2 people on the platform and encountered less than 10 people on the ride to Earls Court.
Contrast the laissez-faire attitude with what happened when we arrived in Oz: both of us had our temperatures taken, and we were asked to show proof we had been in the UK in the 14 prior to departure (in the form of photos with location imbedded, or bank transactions). This latter measure was reassuring because if we’d been backpacking around Europe, our passports may not have been stamped and thus give no indication that we may have presented a greater risk

 

[Mag_seven]

5.3 Can I use public transport to get to green spaces?

You should avoid using public transport wherever possible.

If you don't have a car then its not possible to avoid it!

 

[thejuggler]

Why has Boris just talked of the virus being detected in the water supply? If it can be we have a real issue on our hands.

 

[Esker-pades]

If you don't have a car then its not possible to avoid it!

And this has been the problem from the start. "Wherever possible" could mean many different things. My interpretation of it clearly differs to @yorkie 's. I'm quite glad I can tune out of most of this because I'm in Scotland.

 

[MarkyT]

This is very clearly not the case. Car use has now moved away from essential purposes[1], as has cycling and walking (because you can just call that exercise). For public transport, the concept of "essential journey" remains.

It's not a "deliberate attempt to restrict the freedom of movement of non-car drivers" - they are effectively "collateral damage" because public transport poses the highest risk and has very limited capacity for now.

[1] Ish. I don't believe there is any scope to "just go for a drive", but it's clear that there are enough reasons to go for one that enforcement is basically impossible as one of them will always fit.

It does seem the emphasis has shifted markedly from stay-at-home and local exercise only to being an encouragement to drive as much as possible, both for work and for unlimited mileage journeys for 'exercise' at which one can 'meet up with' one non-related person. This has the dual 'benefit' of stimulating the oil, car maintenance and sales industries as well as allowing ministers and their scientific advisors to liaise with their mistresses alfresco! Oh and I suggest everyone fills up quickly, as fuel prices are bound to shoot up in the next few days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Definitely constructively ambiguous.

Perhaps we will get more of a steer when they've done more research on expanding social bubbles.

Perhaps a glimmer of hope.

I was quite up for the bubble thing with a friend who also lives alone. But it seems I can now go for a walk or bike ride with him, including sitting having lunch or whatever during it, as long as I stay 2m from him (which I'm going to do). Not sure the risk of 14 days' isolation is worth being able to sit in his flat/for him to sit in my house!

It would be very useful for my parents and sister's family, but that depends if it's allowed to include an (otherwise healthy) over 70 or not.

 

[philjo]

Why has Boris just talked of the virus being detected in the water supply? If it can be we have a real issue on our hands.

I didn’t hear what Boris said - Did he mean the actual drinking water supply, or the sewage treatment ? Some countries are testing At the sewage Treatment works to get an undertaking of the concentration of the virus in a particular area.

 

[greyman42]

Ian Duncan Smith was quite critical of Boris Johnson in a Sky news interview this morning. Are the cracks starting to appear?

 

[WelshBluebird]

So given we are now being asked to wear masks (sorry - "face coverings"), why on earth was that not mentioned in the televised speech yesterday? Seems kind of important I would have thought. Infact, reading through the new guidelines, most of the important bits weren't mentioned at all yesterday!

 

[RealTrains07]

Is their any indication of whether the may 2020 timetable will go ahead as I find the document is unclear on what plans are in place regarding transport services?

 

[Senex]

If you don't have a car then its not possible to avoid it!

Those over 70 who have neither cars nor gardens seem very much the forgotten poor relations in all this.

 

[87015]

Is their any indication of whether the may 2020 timetable will go ahead as I find the document is unclear on what plans are in place regarding transport services?

Yes, its been live for months, of course it goes ahead. COVID drives STP amendments to it like it has done for the last x weeks to the December timetable.

 

[ChrisC]

Those over 70 who have neither cars nor gardens seem very much the forgotten poor relations in all this.

What do over 70’s, who have a car, and decide to go out on a long drive and perhaps include a walk, do about toilets? That could be a problem for some younger people too.

When I first heard the news that we could drive longer distances, and see one family member whilst socially distancing, I thought great, I can now take my elderly mother to see my sister about 40 miles away. The plan was to meet in the garden. Then I thought what about toilets. My mum could not manage much over 3 hours without needing to visit a toilet.

 

[yorksrob]

I was quite up for the bubble thing with a friend who also lives alone. But it seems I can now go for a walk or bike ride with him, including sitting having lunch or whatever during it, as long as I stay 2m from him (which I'm going to do). Not sure the risk of 14 days' isolation is worth being able to sit in his flat/for him to sit in my house!

It would be very useful for my parents and sister's family, but that depends if it's allowed to include an (otherwise healthy) over 70 or not.

Well, apparently you're not allowed to socially distance in someones back garden, which is pretty rubbish for the over 70's who aren't supposed to leave the home. How many will adhere to that I don't know.

But that's more for my family who live away than me, as my primary obstacle would be getting there in the first place.

Hopefully they will work on the concept a bit more.

 

[Mogster]

With respect, Heathrow is indeed a global hub, which means a lot of inbound passengers don’t leave the airport, they transit through and go on to their end destination. By being firm from an early stage, the Australian government’s policy of quarantining has undoubtedly been a big factor in keeping even asymptomatic persons from passing on the virus. As I’ve said on another thread, we returned to the UK from Oz last month, and were gobsmacked that we could go directly to Heathrow T4 tube station, board a train and potentially infect other passengers. Luckily, we were the only 2 people on the platform and encountered less than 10 people on the ride to Earls Court.
Contrast the laissez-faire attitude with what happened when we arrived in Oz: both of us had our temperatures taken, and we were asked to show proof we had been in the UK in the 14 prior to departure (in the form of photos with location imbedded, or bank transactions). This latter measure was reassuring because if we’d been backpacking around Europe, our passports may not have been stamped and thus give no indication that we may have presented a greater risk

Heathrow handles 95m passengers a year, 90m of them are international, transfers are around 10% only iirc. Add on Gatwick and that’s another 45m passengers. Sydney handles around 45m passengers per year but around 15m of them are domestic. Remove those who wouldn’t need to be managed and Australia’s busiest airport has international traffic similar to Manchester. Sydney is also, although a moderately large city, like all the Australian cities not densely populated at all. London is a truly international heavily populated mega city with 2 large airports funnelling international travellers into it, it also has a large susceptible black African population.

Managing London’s International passengers would be way more difficult than those arriving in Australia, an enormous task. Then of course the Aussies have the advantage in this situation that if they close their airports geographical isolation means there’s no other way in pretty much. There are a myriad of ways into the UK by sea and rail should you really want to get in. I really don’t feel this quarantine policy can work, I’m expecting another fiasco, government policy seems to be a response to Twitter now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, apparently you're not allowed to socially distance in someones back garden, which is pretty rubbish for the over 70's who aren't supposed to leave the home. How many will adhere to that I don't know.

The whole point of shielding is that you don't come into any contact at all with anyone you don't live with, whether 2m away or not. For most of us it's about reducing risk of spread, for them it's about effectively zeroing it because of the consequences.

I hadn't thought of that, but that's a good reason not to allow it in gardens. Another is that people would be tempted to go in the house to e.g. use the loo, or furniture, teacups etc might be shared.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The plan was to meet in the garden. Then I thought what about toilets. My mum could not manage much over 3 hours without needing to visit a toilet.

It fails much earlier than that. Two people may meet up, one from each household. What you propose would be three.

 

[6Gman]

Why has Boris just talked of the virus being detected in the water supply? If it can be we have a real issue on our hands.

Because he's a berk ?

There is, I understand, no evidence the virus can survive in a normal water supply.

Unless you draw your water from a well that someone's recently spat into.

I really don't want to liken him to Trump but he seems to be sliding into a Trump-style "speak first, engage bran later" mode.

 

[yorkie]

It fails much earlier than that. Two people may meet up, one from each household. What you propose would be three.

However I think he could drive her to her sister's location, and go for a walk while they chat, and then take her back? Providing there are no more than two of them present at any one time and they do not enter her sister's home, my interpretation is that this is allowed, would you agree?

 

[yorksrob]

The whole point of shielding is that you don't come into any contact at all with anyone you don't live with, whether 2m away or not. For most of us it's about reducing risk of spread, for them it's about effectively zeroing it because of the consequences.

I hadn't thought of that, but that's a good reason not to allow it in gardens. Another is that people would be tempted to go in the house to e.g. use the loo, or furniture, teacups etc might be shared.

Is that for all over 70's, or just people on the Government's special list ?

I agree the point about not using tea cups, the loo etc, however I would

 

[Bletchleyite]

However I think he could drive her to her sister's location, and go for a walk while they chat, and then take her back? Providing there are no more than two of them present at any one time and they do not enter her sister's home, my interpretation is that this is allowed, would you agree?

Yes, I'd say so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that for all over 70's, or just people on the Government's special list ?

Only those shielding, I'd say. Which I think doesn't now include healthy 70+s.

 

[Qwerty133]

However I think he could drive her to her sister's location, and go for a walk while they chat, and then take her back? Providing there are no more than two of them present at any one time and they do not enter her sister's home, my interpretation is that this is allowed, would you agree?

Unless you mean a park or other open location near to the sister's house then no as meet ups of 2 people are only permitted in outdoor public spaces and not in private gardens.

 

[yorksrob]

Only those shielding, I'd say. Which I think doesn't now include healthy 70+s.

I was thinking of the healthy over 70's category (but who might not go out so much).

 

[ChrisC]

It fails much earlier than that. Two people may meet up, one from each household. What you propose would be three.

I soon began to realise that. Perhaps we should meet somewhere in a field halfway! Or as we live in the country with a field behind the house, my sister could stand in the field at a distance and talk to mum in our garden. Maybe I am now being silly but it is all so complicated.

I’ve been carefully keeping to the rules so far during the lockdown. I’ve only been walking locally over the fields near my house. All of my shopping has been at small local shops in a nearby village avoiding any queues or busy places. I’ve only been taking my car out once a week to fetch a few heavy items from my nearest shop over a mile away. This was very easy at the beginning when most other people were following the guidelines and there were almost no cars on the road. Last week the road was so busy through my village that I began to think the lockdown was over and no one had told me. I will continue to follow the rules but it won’t be easy to continue to explain to my elderly mother with dementia if she sees our neighbours meeting relatives in their garden.

 

[yorkie]

I soon began to realise that. Perhaps we should meet somewhere in a field halfway! Or as we live in the country with a field behind the house, my sister could stand in the field at a distance and talk to mum in our garden. Maybe I am now being silly but it is all so complicated.

There must be a park or other open space nearby surely?

To be fair, if the rules were simpler they would not allow you to do even this. It sounds to me like some people are annoyed at the fact you even can do this and want the rules to be harsher.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It does seem the emphasis has shifted markedly from stay-at-home and local exercise only to being an encouragement to drive as much as possible, both for work and for unlimited mileage journeys for 'exercise' at which one can 'meet up with' one non-related person. This has the dual 'benefit' of stimulating the oil, car maintenance and sales industries as well as allowing ministers and their scientific advisors to liaise with their mistresses alfresco! Oh and I suggest everyone fills up quickly, as fuel prices are bound to shoot up in the next few days.

Wicked - but I like it!

 

[ChrisC]

There must be a park or other open space nearby surely?

To be fair, if the rules were simpler they would not allow you to do even this. It sounds to me like some people are annoyed at the fact you even can do this and want the rules to be harsher.

I know what you mean and meeting in an open space is what we will probably do. I’m grateful that at least the new rules allow us to travel to such a location. However, when we both have fairly large gardens isn’t is a bit silly that we have to meet in a public open space or a park where we could also come into contact with others. Fortunately we both live in country areas where we could meet down a lane or in a field with hardly anyone else within a mile of us.

 

[Mogster]

There must be a park or other open space nearby surely?

To be fair, if the rules were simpler they would not allow you to do even this. It sounds to me like some people are annoyed at the fact you even can do this and want the rules to be harsher.

It seems so. Some people are enjoying their little moment of power telling others what to do and it’s now being diluted.

The bottom line is that the evidence suggests you’re very unlikely to catch CoV2 outside. Boris should have said this yesterday as the relaxation of the exercise rules is obviously based on that. That fact and the suggestion that depleted vitamin D may increase the risk of serious illness makes allowing people outside as long as they aren’t in large groups reasonable. He could have explained the governments reasoning better though, I could have also done without the bouncing Crackerjack clapometer...

 

[westv]

Only those shielding, I'd say. Which I think doesn't now include healthy 70+s.

It never did.