Boss of Northern Rail Has a theory about why passengers are not prepared to travel.

[yorksrob]

The latest update yesterday says Coronavirus (COVID-19): safer travel guidance for passengers

There's a subtle change where public transport now comes ahead of driving.

It will take railway operators a few days to get over their irritation with all the confusing instructions and produce new signage to cover this, before the next revision. Meanwhile 75% of those who used to travel to work are getting more established in their new routines of home working. We're also learning to shop local, and do ever more online. Cash is quickly being supplanted.

Public transport will not see the same levels of demand we'd all become used to - as many of us foresaw immediately lock down was threatened. Rail enthusiasts or not, there's a tide now running that Canute might recognise, except he knew it would certainly turn eventually.

I hope I'm wrong!! It will take a long time to recover given that most of us seem to be surviving reasonably well as we are. Most, but not a great many. It's currently deceptive. In 12 months the harsh realities will be easier to assess.

It's certainly welcome that public transport no longer seems to be playing second fiddle to the motor trade.

I think you're right that public transport won't see the level of demand we're used to. In some ways a change in travel patterns might might be beneficial. It could remove the need to undertake further large capital projects on commuter routes for which there's no real alternative for ever increasing demand.

A more nationwide leisure demand could be easier to accommodate in the long run.

 

[yorksrob]

I used the 8.14 from Dore. 2 of us boarded instead of the normal 40 or so, even on work from home Friday. One more joined at Stockport. 17, yes seventeen, of us left the 6 coach train at Piccadilly.

We have a very serious commuting problem nationwide, one in which public transport is just one factor among many.

Mine was mid-afternoon, and the clientelle didn't look like commuters.

Really commuting is in the remit of company management, but personally lockdown has reiterated that I have no desire to work from home five days a week. I can't imagine I'm the only one !

 

[yorkie]

personally lockdown has reiterated that I have no desire to work from home five days a week. I can't imagine I'm the only one !

Absolutely! See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/remote-working-preferences-in-the-longer-term.203448/

 

[tbtc]

@tbtc You completely misunderstand again.

No-one is talking about the period when non-essential travel wasn't allowed. That was ages ago.

Yes the reasons you state for reduced demand are very real; but that's no reason to justify the messaging that was given out in recent weeks. Did you see my quote of Andy Wakeford? The floodgate analogy was very apt, I thought.

I'm guessing you didn't read it, as you don't appear to be disagreeing with it.

You're arguing about how the railway has handled the past - this is a thread about people being reluctant to travel in the future.

There's plenty of confusion about what's allowed at the moment (e.g. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-much-as-possible.206689/page-2#post-4676191), so I'm not surprised that people were getting similarly confused in recent weeks too; this thread is about what we do going forward (rather than whether the message that Northern gave out was too strict over the last few weeks/months).

I've read the "even without discouragement many are reluctant to travel" quote - sure - a lot of people are going to be reluctant to travel even if the Government magically say that a railway carriage can go back to previous capacity - but I think that this discussion is being drowned out by people keen to talk about what Northern did/didn't do over "recent weeks".

I think you're right that public transport won't see the level of demand we're used to. In some ways a change in travel patterns might might be beneficial. It could remove the need to undertake further large capital projects on commuter routes for which there's no real alternative for ever increasing demand.

A more nationwide leisure demand could be easier to accommodate in the long run.

At least we can save a lot of hot air by no longer having to discuss re-opening lines to rural places - I think that the "re-opening" arguments will have ground to a halt once the ones already in process (Ashington etc) are finished.

 

[Killingworth]

At least we can save a lot of hot air by no longer having to discuss re-opening lines to rural places - I think that the "re-opening" arguments will have ground to a halt once the ones already in process (Ashington etc) are finished.

Quite. I sense we may have difficulty justifying continuation of many existing services, stations and lines when the aftermath of this crisis is analysed. The cut backs may not be in some of the areas we might expect as new travel patterns settle down.

I can't see the Ashington line being as certain now as some may believe, certainly not in the 3 or 4 year timescale some seem to suggest.

 

[MikeWM]

Greater Anglia ticket machines all still seem to have a notice on them in bright red with a warning triangle saying 'only travel if absolutely essential'. Dunno if other TOCs have similar, but that could well be putting some people off...

 

[duncanp]

Transport For Wales still have signs up saying Our services are for key workers and essential journeys only, even at stations in England such as Church Stretton and Shrewsbury.

And if I hear that irritating little kid making the recorded announcement at Birmingham New Street once more saying "Hello, my parents are both key workers, please help us all keep safe by wearing a face covering and washing your hands" I swear I will go mad.

 

[Bantamzen]

Public transport is in an impossible situation. 2 metre separation is impractical in so many places and times. 1 metre is probably little better. As soons as it gets busy folks will revert to normal and many of us will do all the things we know we shouldn't. Even with the low number of passengers around at Piccadilly yesterday morming those waiting for the Liverpool - Norwich on Platform 13 clustered away from the end of the platform ensuring that when the train stopped most were positioned to board the rear two coaches. Some moved forward to the second but we who waited at the far end got lots of space in the lead coach.

I found Piccadily very virus safe, but a bit intimidating; it was as if I'd intruded into the preparations for a big event before opening time, and that I shouldn't be there. Lots of people for cleaning and keeping us in order. It's not a Northern station so that's largely down to national policy.

A few pictures - the gents I've left out, but normal convention is now compulsory!

View attachment 80923View attachment 80924View attachment 80925View attachment 80926View attachment 80927View attachment 80928

I still can't wrap my head around the obsession in this country with one way systems. I know it keeps the clipboard carriers happy and in work, but does it really play any real practical use other than making it harder to use the stations / stores that employ them.

 

[duncanp]

I still can't wrap my head around the obsession in this country with one way systems. I know it keeps the clipboard carriers happy and in work, but does it really play any real practical use other than making it harder to use the stations / stores that employ them.

And it is even more irritating when rail staff are allowed to enter the station via the exit doors, whereas us plebs (ie. the paying customers - remember them?) have to go the long way round to the only door that you are allowed to enter by. Yes, I am talking about you, Birmingham New Street.

Not rail related, but I was in a pub last week that had a one way system that meant, if you wanted to use the toilets or get another drink, you had to go outside the building and walk in via another entrance. OK in the summer perhaps, but it will not be popular in the winter, or after dark.

 

[Killingworth]

I still can't wrap my head around the obsession in this country with one way systems. I know it keeps the clipboard carriers happy and in work, but does it really play any real practical use other than making it harder to use the stations / stores that employ them.

Observing all the barriers, spots, red lines, arrows and one way signs at Piccadilly and Sheffield with very low numbers of users it was interesting to note how many werre clearly not paying much attention.

Keeping left in busy areas is common sense but even with all the signage I saw groups going contra flow. Folks are wrapped up in their conversations, more bothered about finding their train, looking for the toilets, getting refreshments, finding somewhere to sit or just the way out.

We all know that daily commuters have well established routines, their quick ways from platform to street. All the signage is well meant but if confronted with the previous passenger.numbers confusion will create more congestion and not less.

But we aren't going to see normal passenger numbers for some time yet. As numbers gradually return maybe we'll adapt and get used to things. Ummmm....?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And if I hear that irritating little kid making the recorded announcement at Birmingham New Street once more saying "Hello, my parents are both key workers, please help us all keep safe by wearing a face covering and washing your hands" I swear I will go mad.

Is that instead of "See it, Say it, Sorted", or as well as?
Hopefully the former.

I still can't wrap my head around the obsession in this country with one way systems. I know it keeps the clipboard carriers happy and in work, but does it really play any real practical use other than making it harder to use the stations / stores that employ them.

Down my way, Tesco have given up one-way aisles and separate entrances and exits, and there are far fewer controllers telling you what/not to do.
I can't work out if that is because of the 1m+ instead of 2m rule, or mandatory facemasks, or something else.
It's certainly easier to get around.
Distancing signs are also now mostly without a specific figure - they used to all say 2m.
Grant Shapps yesterday reiterated that the distance rules was 1m+, so that should now apply to how the railway is organised, including train layout.

 

[Ianno87]

Is that instead of "See it, Say it, Sorted", or as well as?
Hopefully the former.



Down my way, Tesco have given up one-way aisles and separate entrances and exits, and there are far fewer controllers telling you what/not to do.
I can't work out if that is because of the 1m+ instead of 2m rule, or mandatory facemasks, or something else.
It's certainly easier to get around.
Distancing signs are also now mostly without a specific figure - they used to all say 2m.
Grant Shapps yesterday reiterated that the distance rules was 1m+, so that should now apply to how the railway is organised, including train layout.

Some aren't giving the distancing figure specifically as it means changing all the signage each time it changes!

 

[duncanp]

Is that instead of "See it, Say it, Sorted", or as well as?
Hopefully the former.

Unfortunately it is as well as See it, say it, sorted.

There is another one from someone who purports to work for a supermarket along the lines of "Help us keep the railway clear for people like me who really need to travel".

I don't know why they don't just go the whole hog and say "F*** off you scumbags, we are getting a load of money from the government to run the railways and can well do without the inconvenience of passengers like you"

This is what the constant messaging feels like, and it is getting rather wearing to be honest.

If the government want to attract people back to the railways, they need to stop nannying people, and treat them like adults, with courtesy and respect.

 

[yorkie]

You're arguing about how the railway has handled the past - this is a thread about people being reluctant to travel in the future.

It's quite clear you have misunderstood, but I felt the OP (original post/poster) made it very clear what this thread is about.

I've read the "even without discouragement many are reluctant to travel" quote - sure - a lot of people are going to be reluctant to travel even if the Government magically say that a railway carriage can go back to previous capacity

Hence why I referred to to the quote regarding there being "no flood behind the floodgates"; the rail industry was causing much damage to itself by deterring people from travelling even though, at the time, hardly anyone actually wanted to travel with them.

but I think that this discussion is being drowned out by people keen to talk about what Northern did/didn't do over "recent weeks".

The OP made it very clear that this thread was to discuss the actions of Northern; I also referred you to substantial evidence that many experts felt the rail industry was causing unnecessary damage to itself, and yet you appear to be keen to ignore those issues and divert attention elsewhere.

This problem would have existed without Northern acting in an appalling manner, but the fact that Northern behaved so appallingly has made a bad situation even worse, and that was precisely the point the OP was making.

That said, this thread is probably not far from running its course as most of the matters now under discussion are covered elsewhere; we have threads to discuss incentivising people to travel by train (which is going to need to happen at some point, even if not just yet), the change to the guidance, and more...

 

[yorksrob]

Unfortunately it is as well as See it, say it, sorted.

There is another one from someone who purports to work for a supermarket along the lines of "Help us keep the railway clear for people like me who really need to travel".

I don't know why they don't just go the whole hog and say "F*** off you scumbags, we are getting a load of money from the government to run the railways and can well do without the inconvenience of passengers like you"

This is what the constant messaging feels like, and it is getting rather wearing to be honest.

If the government want to attract people back to the railways, they need to stop nannying people, and treat them like adults, with courtesy and respect.

Perhaps instead of "Getting There" or "Britain's Railway", the advertising slogan of today's railway should be "Sling yer hook".

 

[Killingworth]

Let's not kid ourselves, the main reason why the public has abandoned the railway isn't the messages at stations or on trains. They don't get that close.

From mid-March the work from home mantra was ramped up and thrust down our throats in every news bulletin and paper across the land - as it was in other countries too. Pictures of crowded tube trains fuelled the message.

London led the early hospitalisation and death rates, so inevitably that dominated all subsequent reporting. The fact that those two rates have led the way down has largely escaped comment. Has the London area effectively acquired a large degree of herd immunity? We don't know but it must be a suspicion.

Whatever, large numbers cannot return to rail commuting until they return to work. As that's where most rail passenger numbers are generated the TOCs have been fighting a battle they hardly needed to fight. A lot of energy has been expended that was barely needed, but that was what government required.

It seems that trains for leisure are picking up returning users best. I'll not try a trip to Skegness any time soon but Northern have increased services from Hull to the East Riding Coast, maybe.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, in the past few weeks the rail industry has acted as if it had to deter the few people who were willing to travel from travelling; in reality there was "no flood behind the floodgates" and all they ended up doing was alienating people who depend on public transport and make a bad situation for the rail industry even worse.

 

[DB]

Let's not kid ourselves, the main reason why the public has abandoned the railway isn't the messages at stations or on trains. They don't get that close.

But in some cases that will be because they've looked on the internet and seen similarly hostile messaging there, and decided not to bother.

 

[Killingworth]

But in some cases that will be because they've looked on the internet and seen similarly hostile messaging there, and decided not to bother.

Absolutely, and after 4 months of working from home many employers have fine tuned procedures to ensure that will now be normal. I know of more than one company that has not renewed its office lease and expects all future work to be from home. The longer this goes on the more this will happen.

Of course stuck at home with 3 kids may be OK for those able to provide space and child care, but it's not for very many in cramped houses with no easy way to provide quiet office space. There's so much more impact we've yet to fully appreciate from this crisis.

The railways have a lot to do to start filling carriages, but firstly we've got to get folks back into cities and towns, and that has to be safe and easy. Currently it's perceived as anything but. The messages need to be online, on TV and in the printed word.

 

[DB]

I know of more than one company that has not renewed its office lease and expects all future work to be from home. The longer this goes on the more this will happen.

I remain unconvinced that this will work long-term. I can quite see that there will be an increase in home working for part of the week, but I don't see it working as a full-time thing.

 

[Ianno87]

For leisure travel, presumably there'll still be an element of having limited places to actually go. E.g. you tend to be heading shopping by train for general browsing, whereas that's less attractive at present with all the queueing etc in place. Theatres, sports venues etc also not operating.

Or alternativelt travelling to see relatives, who may still be shielding / in a different bubble etc.

 

[yorkie]

I think this thread is now just duplicating discussions elsewhere; other relevant threads include:

• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/remote-working-preferences-in-the-longer-term.203448/
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ucing-rail-fares-to-entice-passengers.206624/

And a previous threads that are relevant include:

• https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...essaging-on-avoiding-trains-and-buses.206356/
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/our-empty-trains-“no-better-than-a-model-railway”-anthony-smith.206428/
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-to-get-people-back-on-trains-post-covid-19.205719/unread

As always if anyone has anything important to add to this thread, feel free to contact us.