Break of Journey on a SailRail ticket

[Goatboy]

This is a followon from another thread where I thought I'd ask a quick question but I'd rather not drag the other thread OT.

An overnight stop is not a break of journey when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day.
It is therefore permitted to start your journey in the west country in the afternoon, leave any station en route in the evening to stay in overnight accommodation because you cannot complete your journey that day, resume your journey the following morning and catch a lunchtime ferry from Holyhead.

But finding someone with the experience and skill to issue all the reservations and travel ticket bearing the correct dates has sometimes been challenging.

I'd like to travel from Liskeard to Dublin and back by rail, but due to the times I'd like to arrive and depart in Dublin it isn't possible to do this in one go.

So, would my following proposed itiniery be permitted on two SailRail singles (They don't do returns now)?

Outward:

12/12: 15:31 Liskeard, arrive Birmingham New Street 19:56
13/12: 09:24 Birmingham New Street to Holyhead, 14:10 Holyhead to Dublin Ferryport, arrive 17:25

Return:

16/12: 14:40 Dublin to Holyhead, 17:30 Holyhead to Crewe, 20:01 Crewe to Birmingham New Street, 21:12 Birmingham New Street to Cheltenam Spa, arrive 21:50
17/12: 09:52 Cheltenham Spa to Exeter St Davids, 12:08 EXD to Liskeard.

Would this be valid under the 'Not reasonable to complete journey in a day' rule or do I need to get onto the first available train the following day even if its at 5am?

The above timings would be the most convenient, at least - and for my required arrival and departure time from Dublin it is not possible to complete either the outward or the return journey in one day.

This seems to come in at £91 return all in for non-advance tickets.

Is it as simple as just buying the tickets I want and travelling as per the itiniery above? Surely they will query why I am on a train from Birmingham to Holyhead the day after the date on my ticket?

Thanks!

 

[barrykas]

Having just tried to persuade both FasTIS and Journey Planner to offer me the times you've given above, and failed miserably as it kept giving me the "wrong" times from Liskeard, all I can say is, "Good luck!"

More seriously, breaking a journey overnight for connectional purposes is explicitly not a break of journey, so you should be okay.

 

[Goatboy]

Liskeard to Holyhead is an 8.5 hours jouney. Speaking as an ordinary passenger, I would not expect a TOC to bend its "complete journey in one day rule" for my convenience simply because I had decided myself to begin my journey mid-afternoon.

Liskeard to Dublin is not an 8.5 hour journey it is 11-14 hours depending on connections - also my journey begins mid afternoon not becuase I wish to set out mid afternoon but becuase I wish to arrive in Dublin at 6pm. In order to do this, I must set out the previous day.

day" deal because it had been my decision to start out very late in the day.

It's my decision to arrive in Dublin at about 6pm, if that changes it.

As for the return journey, the overnight stop in Cheltenham appears to be something you've decided to do yourself as opposed to being the only option.

Only for convenience sake - the journey planner actually gives me an overnight stop in Bristol instead but not until 00:15. It is impossible to reach Liskeard in one day if you are using the 14:30 ferry from Dublin.

Do you have something against starting journeys in the morning as most people do?

Nope, but I must work around the ferry times and associated check-in requirements. This means that unless I wish to check out of my hotel at 6am, the next available ferry from Dublin is the 14:30 which won't allow travel back to Liskeard in a single day. I could probably just about manage the outward trip in one day with an arrival of 19:15 but there is no way I could on the way back.

My own opinion - is that you are rightly trying to find a cheap deal, but you somehow expect the TOC to cater to your needs in respect of timings

What I'm trying to do is make a case for the train versus the default option of the car. The car works fine - get in, drive to Holyhead, park at longstay parking, job done. But I like rail travel and I'd rather travel by train if its practical. I'm trying to make it practical thats all. If the rules forbid what I'm trying to do then so be it.

I guess the most important part is the return trip as I'm not prepared to check out at 6am. I'd be happy to squeeze the outward trip into a single day, thinking about it, but can't see a way of doing that on the way back. Probably because it's a Sunday and the ferrys are less frequent.

So lets change the focus to the return portion, as the 07:50 from Liskeard arriving 19:15 in Dublin seems reasonable enough for the outward portion

 

[laird]

The 1531 has a valid connection that can be achieved within the day:
Liskeard-Plymouth-Birmingham New Street-Crewe-Chester-Llandudno Junction-Holyhead. On arrival you join the overnight crossing of the Stena Adventurer. To Dublin Port Stena (DPS)
You will find fares and the detailed timing for the specific day you want to travel on any of the trainline software derived TOC sales websites.

If you did want to stop overnight (for a very few hours - perhaps not enough to say you have slept well e.g. a pre 5am departure) then choose a route to Dublin Ferry Port (DFP) or possibly Dun Laoghaire (DLO).
That will keep you within the spirit of the ticketing.


A word of caution if you do decide to stop overnight, the tickets are printed with a valid on date giving only the day of your departure from the origin station.
This very nearly caught me out travelling to Belfast from Reading overnight for the morning ferry. At the gateline in Glasgow my ticket was rejected as out of date, it was only the sheer numbers of similar travellers (the Euston-Glasgow sleeper had fortunately just arrived) and a guard arriving with seconds to spare that got us aboard the train.
The gateline staff were insistent that it was not possible for us to travel on the following morning despite the Euston and Reading booking offices having correctly dated the ship reservation cards.

Personally I would not risk it unless you are willing as I was asked to buy a ticket for the second day. (Birmingham - Dublin and Cheltenham - Liskeard).

 

[Goatboy]

It's sounding like it won't work. Overnight ferries won't work as I already have hotel accomodation booked.

My other option is to buy a Sailrail from further up the network and buy conventional tickets to and from my break point the previous and subsequent day. Just wondered if that was neccesary - it was somebody else on here who gave me the idea!

 

[John @ home]

It's sounding like it won't work.

Don't be so pessimistic! There is no requirement that a passenger should start a journey at a particular time, and it will work.

This is not the first time this subject has been discussed. I will add relevant links when I get back to my desktop - a bit difficult from a mobile.

 

[Goatboy]

Many thanks - I was beginning to think I was daft even considering it from some of the replies!

 

[OwlMan]

Don't be so pessimistic! There is no requirement that a passenger should start a journey at a particular time, and it will work.

This is not the first time this subject has been discussed. I will add relevant links when I get back to my desktop - a bit difficult from a mobile.

The problem is that the sailrail tickets are special types of ticket with different conditions to off peak returns.

There are advance tickets valid on booked trains only and standby tickets which are valid on "date on ticket only"

Peter

 

[bkhtele]

It's sounding like it won't work. Overnight ferries won't work as I already have hotel accomodation booked.

My other option is to buy a Sailrail from further up the network and buy conventional tickets to and from my break point the previous and subsequent day. Just wondered if that was neccesary - it was somebody else on here who gave me the idea!

In my opinion your journet is exactly what the Sailrail tickets are designed for. From Liskeard the journey means an overnight stop is necessary to make it a sensible journey. As long as you use the standby fares they are more flexible +£5. No reservations are essential except the ferry.

I have travelled from Belfast to Dublin caught the ferry around 8pm, stayed in the travel lodge in Holyhead and then caught a virgin train to London and on to Didcot without problems. Find a journey that includes the ferry you want and then ignore the train reservations if you get stuck.

Ps I fancy getting the fgw sleeper from Penzance to London and then travelling North to Belfast ideally on the Scotrail sleeper. Great value £98 return plus supplements. (not sure the ticket would be valid on the 2nd sleeper though! So I may have to travel day time for the 2nd part of the journey when I do it!))

 

[Lrd]

Before you had to have reservations, I once left Belfast at about 1600, boat to Stranraer, ScotRail to Glasgow, then sleeper to London and then SWT to Southampton arriving at about 0900.

I had no problem with my ticket.

I managed to force the online journey planners into making this itinerary for me, so I did indeed have reservations for the sleeper and the boat, just not the other trains.

 

[158801]

It doesn't appear now, but a couple of years ago the restriction for a sail/rail ticket specifically forbid break of journey on the boat !

 

[bb21]

It doesn't appear now, but a couple of years ago the restriction for a sail/rail ticket specifically forbid break of journey on the boat !

Again, I will ask the question. How do you enjoy a break of journey on the boat leg?

 

[embers25]

I traveled Londonderry to Truro via Belfast, Dublin and Holyhead and so obviously couldn't complete in one day and had no issue in the UK with ticket. Equally I traveled Woking to Londonderry via Holyhead and had no issue using my ticket the next day on Enterprise or from Belfast although the guards couldn't believe how cheap the ticket was! I do agree you may get some guards in the UK that will question the overnight break of journey, particularly given your outbound itinerary does mean you could technically catch the overnight ferry but you are perfectly within your rights to break overnight even if guards disagree. The only potential issue is your choice of break points given you could get closer to your destination but as far as I am aware there is no specific rule saying that if you can't complete you must travel as close as you can before breaking.

As for the comment regarding linking the 2 sleepers from Stranraer to the West Country are you even allowed via London for this journey with these tickets as surely only routes via Birmingham or the Marches line are valid...I did once try via Birmingham and Reading but that didn't go down well!

 

[bkhtele]

It's sounding like it won't work. Overnight ferries won't work as I already have hotel accomodation booked.

My other option is to buy a Sailrail from further up the network and buy conventional tickets to and from my break point the previous and subsequent day. Just wondered if that was neccesary - it was somebody else on here who gave me the idea!

Before you had to have reservations, I once left Belfast at about 1600, boat to Stranraer, ScotRail to Glasgow, then sleeper to London and then SWT to Southampton arriving at about 0900.

I had no problem with my ticket.

I managed to force the online journey planners into making this itinerary for me, so I did indeed have reservations for the sleeper and the boat, just not the other trains.

Just for clarity (this has been discussed in previous threads) for the Cairnryan/Belfast and the standby Holyhead tickets that cost £5 extra, there is no requirement for rail reservations and the ferry reservation does not appear to be enforced.

So far I have not had any problems with my tickets via all routes. I do carry the public leaflet in case I need to explain the concept of the ticket from a customer perspective which has proved unnecessary.
Also the tickets that are easily bought in Dublin Connelly rail station & ferry terminals do not have any reservations and are flexible by ferry & rail route.

 

[wintonian]

I traveled Londonderry to Truro via Belfast, Dublin and Holyhead and so obviously couldn't complete in one day and had no issue in the UK with ticket. Equally I traveled Woking to Londonderry via Holyhead and had no issue using my ticket the next day on Enterprise or from Belfast although the guards couldn't believe how cheap the ticket was! I do agree you may get some guards in the UK that will question the overnight break of journey, particularly given your outbound itinerary does mean you could technically catch the overnight ferry but you are perfectly within your rights to break overnight even if guards disagree. The only potential issue is your choice of break points given you could get closer to your destination but as far as I am aware there is no specific rule saying that if you can't complete you must travel as close as you can before breaking.

As for the comment regarding linking the 2 sleepers from Stranraer to the West Country are you even allowed via London for this journey with these tickets as surely only routes via Birmingham or the Marches line are valid...I did once try via Birmingham and Reading but that didn't go down well!

Trying Penzance, Exeter St David's, Taunton and Reading to Belfast NI the only ticket that comes up with a cross London marker is Reading - Belfast NI route; CAIRNRYAN STENA, so one assumes going via London isn't an option although you may be able to go via Kensington Olympia.

 

[bkhtele]

Trying Penzance, Exeter St David's, Taunton and Reading to Belfast NI the only ticket that comes up with a cross London marker is Reading - Belfast NI route; CAIRNRYAN STENA, so one assumes going via London isn't an option although you may be able to go via Kensington Olympia.

If someone could check the routing guide I think it is valid. Holyhead may not be valid.

I did get the above route up on Planner around a month ago using the advanced option. Think I used via London Euston or Watford junction and it gave me overnight sleeper plus daylight service to Glasgow/Belfast. It took some time!

 

[wintonian]

If someone could check the routing guide I think it is valid. Holyhead may not be valid.

I did get the above route up on Planner around a month ago using the advanced option. Think I used via London Euston or Watford junction and it gave me overnight sleeper plus daylight service to Glasgow/Belfast. It took some time!

Going via Watford Junction does allow you to use the West London Line and the lack of a cross London marker doesn't necessary mean it's not valid to London terminal, but it would indicate that it might not be the intention.

 

[tom3107]

I'm using the overnight ferry from Dublin next month so have to travel in the UK on the day after the one dated on my ticket. I look forward to the reaction of the FCC gateline staff and RPI's... its a handwritten ticket as well!

 

[Goatboy]

So where am I with the legality of this? I'm still not sure if my chosen trains are valid or infact who I'd need to ask who would be able to tell me categorically.

I've revised the homeward trip to the following, meaning I now break at Birmingham New Street in both directions:

14:30 Dublin to Holyhead Ferry
18:23 Holyhead to Crewe
20:53 Crewe to Birmingham New Street
Break
10:20 Birmingham New Street to Liskeard

NRCOC states:

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your
journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start
your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably
complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff

And goes into no further detail about overnight stays.

However on BRFares, it says this about the Sailrail ticket:

Reservations are compulsory
on the ship leg.
Valid on date on ticket only.
Valid on Irish Ferries
services.
No break of journey except for
connection purposes.
No unaccompanied children
under sixteen.

Given that NRCOC specifically explains that stopping overnight where the journey cannot reasonably be completed within one day does not count as a break of journey it would seem there is absolutely no mention of overnight stays being possible or not being possible in the ticket conditions of the Sailrail ticket.

Confusing!

 

[wintonian]

With return tickets you used to be able to come back at anytime with in a month so this overnight breaking of journeys wasn't a problem.

But with the new ticketing structure for these fares you do need to have reservations, I don't know if you have to travel on these services but I would have thought it would be best to stick to them and technically you will not be able to leave Holyhead station (unless staying in overnight accomodation, i.e. the Travelodge) but at 03:00 there isn't anyone to stop you.

You have about a 4-5 hour wait at Holyhead and the coffee shop will be waiting to close, it stays open just for the ferry passengers and then shuts, so I would stock up in Dublin for the wait and grab a coffee when you get to holyhead and find a seat in the terminal before they are all taken.