Break of Journey permitted?

[142056]

Hi,
What would be the best tickets to buy for the following series of journeys:
Bath Spa (BTH)-Oxford (OXF) - Saturday 26th Jan- early afternoon
Oxford-Manchester (MAN) - Sunday 27th Jan- Morning
Manchester-Bath Spa - Sunday 3rd Feb - Evening (arrive back to Bath before 2300)
I have a Young Person's Railcard, and would prefer to use Flexible tickets.

What would the break of journey restrictions be on a Bath Spa-Manchester SVR be with respect to stopping in Oxford - Am I correct in thinking the journey must be completed by 1200 the following day?
- If so this isn't possible, but a SVR BTH-Stoke on Trent (SOT) Would be, leaving Oxford Sunday morning at 0927, then taking up a SOT-MAN SVR. Would this be a viable option?

And, why does the BTH-SOT SVR on the return journey permit changing at Reading according to National Rail, yet the Routing guide doesn't permit this?
On this ticket for returning, is there any way I could travel back via Newport - From Manchester using this part of the Routing Guide:
"BD (includes Westbury Group, CHIPPENHAM, SWINDON (WILTS), Bristol Group, NEWPORT (S.WALES), HEREFORD, CRAVEN ARMS, SHREWSBURY, CREWE, Wilmslow Group, Manchester Group, STOCKPORT)"

I know this is a lot of information, but I have tried to come up with a solution on my own and need clarification if this works? Many thanks in advance.

 

[soil]

Your route:

26 Jan
Bath Spa - Swindon - Didcot - Oxford

27 Jan
Oxford - Banbury - Birmingham - Manchester

3rd Feb

Manchester - Crewe - Newport - Bath

The wording is a little ambiguous, but it states that if the journey 'cannot be completed', you may resume it the next day.

There are actually trains from Oxford to Manchester till quite late in the evening, and it's barely over an hour from Bath to Oxford, but as break of journey is not restricted on this ticket, there is nothing to stop you leaving Oxford station at say 5pm, and coming back the next morning, so essentially any arguments about whether your journey could have been completed the previous day are academic/unenforceable.

As for returning Manchester - Newport, Newport - Bath, this is indeed permitted on map BD. The permitted routes essentially are:

Manchester - Birmingham (via Crewe or Stoke) - Bath (via Gloucester or Didcot)
Manchester - Newport - Bath

A cheaper 'loophole' routeing is noted here:

http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=78100

Chippenham - Droitwich Spa £17.50
Birmingham Stations - Manchester £22.60

(£40.10 vs. £52.60)

Read that thread for details

 

[142056]

Hi Soil,
Many thanks for your detailed reply.
The tickets are actually for a friend, but it's a journey I may make too. I didn't feel that was relevant to include in the original post. As you point out the loophole on the other thread, it is an excellent loophole, however she isn't as knowledgeable about the rail system as I am and as such faced with a difficult guard could end up in a sticky situation unable to explain the restrictions etc. For simplicity, the Stoke split would probably be easier.

For the note, the last trains leaving Bath for Oxford are later than those to Manchester, and as such could argue that if faced with a problem...(yes it stretches the truth)

With the combination of tickets MAN-SOT and SOT-BTH be valid travelling via Newport (which doesn't call at Stoke but instead at Crewe)? Just after for clarification with this combination. Thanks

 

[Goatboy]

With the combination of tickets MAN-SOT and SOT-BTH be valid travelling via Newport (which doesn't call at Stoke but instead at Crewe)? Just after for clarification with this combination. Thanks

No.

The train MUST call at SOT in order to split your tickets there.

 

[142056]

No.

The train MUST call at SOT in order to split your tickets there.

Yes, I understand this, however looking at the routing guide provided from trainscanbecheaper.info would suggest Stoke-on-Trent to Bath Spa is valid via Manchester, or am I totally misunderstanding the point in the Routing guide?

 

[yorkie]

Yes, I understand this, however looking at the routing guide provided from trainscanbecheaper.info would suggest Stoke-on-Trent to Bath Spa is valid via Manchester, or am I totally misunderstanding the point in the Routing guide?

Which maps are you using and what is the route?

If it is valid, then you have to be prepared for a possible dispute with a TOC as it looks bonkers. I may not be a hassle-free journey.

You may be right, but I've not looked at all the maps. A quick search on Trainscanbecheaper for Stoke - Bath via Manchester & Crewe produced no permitted routes though.

Going back to the original question "What would be the best tickets to buy..." for future reference, there is no way I could attempt to answer such a question, for several reasons. Not just because best is undefined and subjective, but to calculate that is very difficult indeed. It does put me off a bit (sorry!).

If, on the other hand the question was "I've found this combination of tickets, would it be permitted?" then that is a question more of us will be willing, and able, to answer.

 

[calc7]

No.

The train MUST call at SOT in order to split your tickets there.

No the train must call at the station where you switch from using one ticket to the next

Yes, I understand this, however looking at the routing guide provided from trainscanbecheaper.info would suggest Stoke-on-Trent to Bath Spa is valid via Manchester, or am I totally misunderstanding the point in the Routing guide?

Stoke-on-Trent to Bath is valid via Crewe and Newport (S Wales), yes. It is also valid less trivially via Manchester, but only if travelling Stoke-on-Trent - Manchester - Styal - Wilmslow - Crewe - ... - Newport (S Wales) - Bath Spa. You cannot do Stoke - Manchester then Manchester - Crewe via Stockport otherwise you are illegally doubling back between Stockport and Manchester.

 

[bb21]

Am I correct in thinking the journey must be completed by 1200 the following day?

The old rules are that the journey must recommence before 1200 on the following day with no further break of journey permitted after this time. This requirement is no longer there, which means you can recommence your journey on the second day at any time, subject to applicable time restrictions, with all journeys completed by 0429 on the third day.

We have been assured by ATOC that the element of choice regarding an overnight break of journey has not been removed since the revision in October 2011 and that all TOCs have received a memo saying so, however front-line staff have not all been briefed about / remembered this judging by the experience of some forum members.

 

[142056]

The old rules are that the journey must recommence before 1200 on the following day with no further break of journey permitted after this time. This requirement is no longer there, which means you can recommence your journey on the second day at any time, subject to applicable time restrictions, with all journeys completed by 0429 on the third day.

We have been assured by ATOC that the element of choice regarding an overnight break of journey has not been removed since the revision in October 2011 and that all TOCs have received a memo saying so, however front-line staff have not all been briefed about / remembered this judging by the experience of some forum members.

Thanks for this. In that case, it'd be fine to buy a Bath-Manchester SVR and start the journey before 1200 - the only reason Stoke came into it is that the first train from Oxford arrives at Stoke at 1150 on the Sunday. Do you have anywhere I can find the official documentation to this to print as proof? Thanks
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Stoke-on-Trent to Bath is valid via Crewe and Newport (S Wales), yes. It is also valid less trivially via Manchester, but only if travelling Stoke-on-Trent - Manchester - Styal - Wilmslow - Crewe - ... - Newport (S Wales) - Bath Spa. You cannot do Stoke - Manchester then Manchester - Crewe via Stockport otherwise you are illegally doubling back between Stockport and Manchester.

Many thanks for clarification on this one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Going back to the original question "What would be the best tickets to buy..." for future reference, there is no way I could attempt to answer such a question, for several reasons. Not just because best is undefined and subjective, but to calculate that is very difficult indeed. It does put me off a bit (sorry!).

If, on the other hand the question was "I've found this combination of tickets, would it be permitted?" then that is a question more of us will be willing, and able, to answer.

I see your point now - 'best' is subjective. My question was more along the lines of "I have found this combination which seems to work - does it? If you have a different way please let me know"

 

[soil]

Yes, I understand this, however looking at the routing guide provided from trainscanbecheaper.info would suggest Stoke-on-Trent to Bath Spa is valid via Manchester, or am I totally misunderstanding the point in the Routing guide?

Stoke on Trent to/from Bath is valid via Manchester as follows:

on map BD:

Stoke - Stockport - Manchester - Wilmslow - (via Heald Green) - Crewe - Newport - Bath

Despite what map BD shows, there are not separate Wilmslow - Crewe and Stockport - Crewe lines - the route is Crewe - Wilmslow, then Wilmslow - Manchester or Wilmslow - Stockport - Manchester.

Map MW is more accurate, and shows the route:

Stoke - Stockport - Manchester - Wilmslow - (via Heald Green) - Crewe - Stafford - Birmingham - Oxford - Didcot - Swindon - Bath

Maps TV+MW are similar to MW, with the same route to Stafford, just differing routes between Stafford and Leamington.

Therefore if holding a Bath - Stoke SVR you would need a Manchester -Wimslow ticket (This ticket costs £3.50) to travel on direct trains from Manchester to Newport (which should all call at Wilmslow), or take the Northern service via Heald Green and change at Wimslow for no extra charge.

Travelling from Oxford to Manchester you could travel via Crewe and Heald Green at considerable incovenience, but if taking the direct train then a SOT - Manchester SVR at £10 would be valid Stoke - Stockport - Manchester for the outbound, and then for the return via Newport, this ticket is valid

Manchester - Stockport - Stoke

so you would only need a Stockport - Wimslow single (£2.40) to complete your journey.

Not very easy to explain to a guard, I would have to say!