Break of Journey

[ozni]

Second post as first one failed!
Traveling KX to Edinburgh on Advance single ticket. Due to a change of plans broke journey at Newcastle where I was collared by a Virgin train guard for "traveling short". Took my name and addres. He spoke to me as I made my way to the metro with my Nexus travelcard in hand. (Live in Sunderland). Googled what he said and ended up here. Is this going to be messey and expensive? Why was he watching me? Of all the dozens of passengers who got off the train? My ticket was last checked outside of York. What a week.

Oz

 

[robbeech]

Crikey, must have been a different person to who I have seen at Newcastle recently, especially yesterday when I showed them my freedom of north east rover but he just waved me through before I could show him the box with the date in. The lady on the way back in just opened the barrier for me as I got my blue national rail wallet out of my pocket.

Officially you have done something wrong. Stopping short is against the rules on an advance purchase. You'd have been much better off finding the guard on the train and explaining your situation to him or her and they will almost certainly have endorsed your ticket to stop short. They may not however have endorsed it to rejoin a later train so you may have had to buy a new ticket to get to Edinburgh but at least you wouldn't have had trouble getting off at NCL.

 

[ozni]

That was faster reply than Virgin East Coast! Yes I was on an advance ticket. I could understand it for not paying the fare etc but ending your journey early! WTF! Am I going to be prosecuted? Is this a common thing to do and also be caught? (I'm sounding guilty now!)

 

[furlong]

Can we confirm this has just happened this week (not last week)?

The rules have just changed and the contradictions in the new ones are of course still untested. If you have any difficulty, I would simply point to this in the new Conditions of Travel:

16.4 Generally, you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction
in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the
Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. However, this may not
be the case with some through services that take an indirect route. You may
also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) before
the destination shown on the Ticket.

The part I have highlighted is unconditional.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not unconditional, because this:

16.1
The Conditions in this section apply to ordinary train Tickets, but may vary
for individual products, especially discount and promotional Tickets. The
conditions and any exclusions applying to these will be explained when you
buy those Tickets.

effectively allows any variation of T&Cs for anything other than Anytime tickets. So the Advance T&Cs remain in place not allowing ending short.

The only possible get-out there is that it wasn't explained (as it's not intuitive to think you can't get off before the destination). But if purchased online you will have been asked to confirm having read the T&Cs, even if you chose not to do so.

However:

16.5
If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where
you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The
price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket
you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that
would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station
concerned.

Which means the OP should have been asked to pay the difference between their ticket and the appropriate one of the Anytime, Off Peak or Super Off Peak ticket from London to Newcastle (or Edinburgh at a push, if resuming was intended), and is not liable to prosecution. (There is nothing in the Advance fares conditions to override this, other than that *possibly* a £10 admin fee would be due on top).

Did the inspector offer you the option to do that? If not, I would expect, if anything happens, you may be asked to pay this by post. I would argue that the above Condition should absolve you of any chance of a successful prosecution provided you do pay this if requested to do so.

 

[furlong]

There is also this condition:

16.1 The Conditions in this section apply to ordinary train Tickets, but may vary
for individual products, especially discount and promotional Tickets. The
conditions and any exclusions applying to these will be explained when you
buy those Tickets.

 

[najaB]

It's not unconditional, because this...

Which begs the question: what is an 'ordinary' train ticket?

 

[furlong]

The Advance conditions state:

Break of journey

You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which begs the question: what is an 'ordinary' train ticket?

I guess that will need to be tested in court. Traditionally an "Ordinary"[1] (not "ordinary") ticket is what we would now call an Anytime ticket, but that is tenuous in the extreme.

I don't see why they didn't just say "Anytime ticket" there, as that is the only one that doesn't (and can't) have overriding T&Cs in some form. Or if they meant it, "Anytime or (Super) Off Peak", or "Anytime, (Super) Off Peak or Advance", or whatever.

[1] OT, but I can't help but be reminded of Southern's erstwhile campaign against the peak-time carriage of Ordinary bicycles, i.e. penny farthings - "Safety" bicycles remaining technically welcome

 

[furlong]

There is a lack of clarity here - I can interpret this both ways. If one condition was intended to override another condition, as per 16.1 why do the advance conditions not state the exclusion simply as "condition 16.4 does not apply" rather than using all this woolly language for lawyers to argue about?

 

[najaB]

There is a lack of clarity here - I can interpret this both ways. If one condition was intended to override another condition, as per 16.1 why do the advance conditions not state the exclusion simply as "condition 16.4 does not apply" rather than using all this woolly language for lawyers to argue about?

Have the Advance ticket conditions been updated in line with the NRCoT replacing the NRCoC?

 

[ozni]

I could be up for big money here - the prince from London to Newcastle is not cheap! Do they sit and wait? Surely it must be a rare thing for being fined for traveling short?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a lack of clarity here - I can interpret this both ways. If one condition was intended to override another condition, as per 16.1 why do the advance conditions not state the exclusion simply as "condition 16.4 does not apply" rather than using all this woolly language for lawyers to argue about?

Because they haven't been updated.

 

[ozni]

I've just got a price of 139 quid minus the 30 quid odd I had already paid for KX to Edinburgh journey. Thats a lot of money.

 

[furlong]

Which means the OP should have been asked to pay the difference

But ending does not look to be covered by that condition, perhaps because 16.4 allows that unconditionally (although we have an information box that contradicts that)?

And is this anyway overridden by the Advance conditions or not? For example, does 16.1 mean they are deemed to replace the entirety of section 16?

 

[Hadders]

I believe that after some bad publicity it is VTEC's policy to allow passengers to finish short when using an Advance ticket unless there is evidence that they are deliberately avoiding a higher fare.

 

[najaB]

I believe that after some bad publicity it is VTEC's policy to allow passengers to finish short when using an Advance ticket unless there is evidence that they are deliberately avoiding a higher fare.

I think that's general advice from ATOC rather than being specific to VETC.

 

[furlong]

I think that's general advice from ATOC rather than being specific to VETC.

And is that what is reflected in these new conditions, treating 'ending' separately? Is the problem that they haven't updated the Advance conditions to take account of the new Conditions of Travel yet?

 

[cuccir]

Can I suggest that we avoid excessive speculation in this thread in response to ozni's question? The long and the short of it as it stands is that:

* No, you should not prosecuted for this
* There's a chance that Virgin may ask for the difference between the lowest priced ticket that would have allowed you to get off at Newcastle and what you've already paid (either £123.30 or £139.00 depending on the time of your journey, minus the cost of your Advance)

This is muddied by the fact that train companies are discouraged from charging huge amounts for customers travelling on Advance fares who stop short, due to the rather counter-intuitive nature of being charged a large amount for finishing early. However, they still sometimes do so, for a whole range of reasons.

If we hear that Virgin actually do get in touch with ozni, then we can worry about the caveats of conditions 16.1 and 16.4 in the Conditions of Travel, and their implications!

 

[ozni]

Thanks for the info guys. I'll just wait and see then if I hear anything from Virgin then. Still intrigued as to why he stopped me. Do they watch you on CCTV like the labour leader last month then? Didn't thing I was that interesting - but then again is he?

 

[roversfan2001]

Thanks for the info guys. I'll just wait and see then if I hear anything from Virgin then. Still intrigued as to why he stopped me. Do they watch you on CCTV like the labour leader last month then? Didn't thing I was that interesting - but then again is he?

I might be reading the OP wrong, but did the 'train guard' take your details after looking at your ticket at the station, or did they take you aside without looking at your ticket?

 

[ozni]

I dont recall the exact sequence as I was focused on getting to the metro with my travelcard in hand. It was not the same guy that checked my ticket at York).

 

[roversfan2001]

I dont recall the exact sequence as I was focused on getting to the metro with my travelcard in hand. It was not the same guy that checked my ticket at York).

Was it on the train or at Newcastle station that you were collared for stopping short? It would seem obvious it could only be once you had left the train, but you use the term 'train guard', which makes it sound like it was on the train itself.

 

[ozni]

I suppose if I'd been quicker and just showed him the travelcard (valid for metro/Northern) I'd been passed okay. Yes I must have shown him the ticket as well before he starting talking about riding short.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What do we call them now - revenue protection officers? Ticket inspector? Was on the platform on the way to the metro entrance.

 

[roversfan2001]

I suppose if I'd been quicker and just showed him the travelcard (valid for metro/Northern) I'd been passed okay. Yes I must have shown him the ticket as well before he starting talking about riding short.

Stopping short on an Advance is against the terms and conditions. I know it sound's rather peculiar, but the vast discount off the flexible ticket prices means there is far less flexibility (ie only valid on one train (and connections, but that doesn't apply here)) and can only be used between origin and destination, and not to board or alight at intermediate stations.

I'm not familiar with any sort of guidance given to TOCs about taking details down of passengers that have stopped short so I will leave that to the people that know about it.

 

[furlong]

Did they keep your ticket and give you any paperwork?

 

[ozni]

Yes he took the ticket - no good to me anyway as I was not travelling onto Edinburgh that day and it was only valid for that day. Just annoying lesson and an expensive unplanned visit home!

 

[furlong]

And asked for your name and address or not?
Asked you to sign anything?
Gave you any paperwork?

 

[najaB]

Yes he took the ticket - no good to me anyway as I was not travelling onto Edinburgh that day and it was only valid for that day. Just annoying lesson and an expensive unplanned visit home!

You say it was an unplanned visit home - do you mean that you broke your journey early to return home, rather that continuing to Edinburgh?

 

[furlong]

Interviewed you under caution or not?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here's an example that made it into the Daily Mail

A professor who got off his train one stop before the destination on his ticket was ordered to pay a £155 penalty to leave the station.

Martyn Evans was told he would be fined for disembarking at Darlington, near his home, rather than waiting until Durham, where he works at the university’s philosophy department.

The state-run East Coast train company said ticketing regulations meant he could get off only at the stop he had paid for – and nowhere else.