Brexit matters

[REVUpminster]

The tennis club analogy is a very good one as any member would know. In all clubs there are cliques that do not want change; been ruling the roost for years. Appoint their friends to senior positions. hold elections when hardly any members turn up.

 

[najaB]

The tennis club analogy is a very good one as any member would know. In all clubs there are cliques that do not want change; been ruling the roost for years. Appoint their friends to senior positions. hold elections when hardly any members turn up.

All of that might be true, but none of it applies to the EU.

 

[Journeyman]

The tennis club analogy is a very good one as any member would know. In all clubs there are cliques that do not want change; been ruling the roost for years. Appoint their friends to senior positions. hold elections when hardly any members turn up.

It's not the EU's fault that UK turnout in European elections was so low. As to your accusation about cliques ruling the roost - regarding the single market, we were that clique. It was designed almost entirely by UK civil servants.

 

[Beemax]

The Irish also voted against the Lisbon treaty a few years later and again accepted it the 2nd time. I don't think they got a much better deal the second time round but they probably thought it was worth trying.. I was rather hoping that with the referendum being so close in 2016 Cameron might have thought it was worth playing the same game and renegotiating, but the Tories probably wouldn't have stood for it.

 

[najaB]

I was rather hoping that with the referendum being so close in 2016 Cameron might have thought it was worth playing the same game and renegotiating, but the Tories probably wouldn't have stood for it.

It would've been the sensible thing to do. Go back to the EU with "I don't want to leave but I've got a mandate."

 

[DerekC]

The tennis club analogy is a very good one as any member would know. In all clubs there are cliques that do not want change; been ruling the roost for years. Appoint their friends to senior positions. hold elections when hardly any members turn up.

There was a long discussion around a golf club analogy in one of these threads a couple of months ago. That worked a bit better than a tennis club - the UK was envisaged as owning one of the holes, wanting to leave the club, cease to pay dues and control access to its own hole whilst continuing to play freely on the rest of the course and using the club house (and no doubt getting a member's discount at the bar). The rest of the club would probably not react well to the proposal!

 

[najaB]

...the UK was envisaged as owning one of the holes, wanting to leave the club, cease to pay dues and control access to its own hole whilst continuing to play freely on the rest of the course and using the club house (and no doubt getting a member's discount at the bar).

Can't see anything wrong with that, we're British after all.

--------
Not strictly Brexit related, but I wonder if this is a result of the US trade deal receding into the far future?

NHS: Government plans to reverse Cameron-era reforms

The plans, revealed in a leaked document, would reverse changes made under David Cameron.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[DerekC]

Not strictly Brexit related, but I wonder if this is a result of the US trade deal receding into the far future?

NHS: Government plans to reverse Cameron-era reforms

The plans, revealed in a leaked document, would reverse changes made under David Cameron.

www.bbc.co.uk

Another NHS reorganisation is worth a thread on its own, I think. Brief reaction:

a) Reduction in privatisation - good (but I am sure we will have to read the small print)

b) Greater control by Ministers - much less good. This government seems to suffer from corporate overconfidence, which the vaccine rollout is feeding.

 

[bspahh]

The tennis club analogy is a very good one as any member would know. In all clubs there are cliques that do not want change; been ruling the roost for years. Appoint their friends to senior positions. hold elections when hardly any members turn up.

If you're a fan of playing tennis, you could play in your back garden, but its unlikely to be big enough, and there aren't many people to play against. Tennis is hard to play on your own.

Form a club and you can use proper courts, and have a variety of people to play against, so everyone improves.

If the club is close to your house, its easier to find time for a game. There is less time travelling, more time playing tennis.

 

[21C101]

If you're a fan of playing tennis, you could play in your back garden, but its unlikely to be big enough, and there aren't many people to play against. Tennis is hard to play on your own.

Form a club and you can use proper courts, and have a variety of people to play against, so everyone improves.

If the club is close to your house, its easier to find time for a game. There is less time travelling, more time playing tennis.

I would be quite happy to travel further to a club to play tennis if the local club insisted on its members having the right to live in your house and be given pocket money as a condition of membership.

 

[najaB]

I would be quite happy to travel further to a club to play tennis if the local club insisted on its members having the right to live in your house and be given pocket money as a condition of membership.

And that's where the metaphor breaks down. If you actual stick within the bounds of the metaphor, freedom of movement means that all members have access to use all of the club's facilities, and it's a membership fees, not pocket money.

 

[Dave1987]

I would be quite happy to travel further to a club to play tennis if the local club insisted on its members having the right to live in your house and be given pocket money as a condition of membership.

Brexiteers insisted that Britain should be able to control its borders, but then you are moaning that the EU is controlling access to its borders now that Britain no longer part of the EU. You cannot have it both ways. You can’t insist that Britain retains full control of its borders but then complain when the EU protects its borders by rigidly upholding the agreements paperwork requirements. I believe old BoJo called the treaty the “cakeiest” treaty ever. Turns out it wasn’t really. By the way Lizz Truss wish that the US will join the CPTPP looks to be a no hoper. The US being the massive market that it is can negotiate its own deals without having to join the CPTPP and the rules that go with that. The UK has walked away from one trading bloc it had big influence over and is begging to join one that we will have no say in the rules of. So much for regaining Sovereignty eh!

 

[najaB]

You can’t insist that Britain retains full control of its borders but then complain when the EU protects its borders by rigidly upholding the agreements paperwork requirements

They can and do. We're British after all!

Unsurprisingly, that argument doesn't get very far.

 

[317 forever]

Must admit I'm already trying to come to terms emotionally with the likely break up of my country which is not quite where I expected to be only five year ago. I well remember waking up on the Friday morning after Indy Ref 1 with the great sense of relief that my country wasn't about to break up. I suspect it won't be many more years before I wake up and get to experience the opposite.

Still, at least Brexiteers are presumably happy with what they've wrought?

There may well be Brexiteers in England & Wales who don't mind losing Scotland or Northern Ireland so long as it means being out of the EU themselves.

 

[REVUpminster]

We never had a big influence in the EU and where's the reason for "begging" to join another bloc.

What we did have and still have are businessmen who knew how to work the system and create thousands of jobs that needed workers from the continent. Why was/is there such high youth unemployment in southern Europe? The common agriculture policy was to the benefit of French small farmers but in this country it was the the big farms that took advantage to make money. Similar happened in fishing with Dutch factory ships that so upset British fisherman and oddly enough the French.

Those same businessmen will work whatever system there is.

If the EU did manage to bankrupt us they would have to lend us money to buy their goods as we did to the Irish and the Germans did to the Greeks.

 

[najaB]

We never had a big influence in the EU

Bwhahahahahha.... oh, wait... You're serious?

 

[Journeyman]

We never had a big influence in the EU and where's the reason for "begging" to join another bloc.

Oh, you have got to be kidding.

We pretty much designed the single market ourselves. It was a Thatcherite wet dream, and we pretty much bullied the rest of Europe into adopting a system that was specifically designed to benefit us.

 

[REVUpminster]

Oh, you have got to be kidding.

We pretty much designed the single market ourselves. It was a Thatcherite wet dream, and we pretty much bullied the rest of Europe into adopting a system that was specifically designed to benefit us.

I think you have false memories or at least very selective.

 

[Journeyman]

I think you have false memories or at least very selective.

I think you'll find that's actually you. Britain did phenomenally well out of the single market. Exports to Europe are currently 68% down on this time last year.

 

[najaB]

I think you'll find that's actually you. Britain did phenomenally well out of the single market. Exports to Europe are currently 68% down on this time last year.

There's no point cluttering the discussion with facts.

 

[Journeyman]

There's no point cluttering the discussion with facts.

Evidently not.

 

[REVUpminster]

... and the EU did phenomenally well out of us. There was never a balanced trade. They sold us more than we sold them. That's why we have been diversifying elsewhere. In 2019, the UK recorded an overall trade deficit with the EU of -£79 billion. A surplus of £18 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£97 billion on trade in goods.
Yes, lets not get the facts get in the way.

But it is good here. All forums on all sites on politics bring out the worst in people. I wonder if there is a religious thread here on a Railway forum.

 

[jon0844]

Bwhahahahahha.... oh, wait... You're serious?

I think the right did a great job of making us look like victims, and painting a picture that we were some weak member unable to speak for ourselves, or play a part in creating new laws/legislation. In reality, we were a big player and many laws people moan about had great involvement from us.

All this talk of bringing back inefficient hoovers, or old style light bulbs and the like - which Brexiters seem to love as a way of sticking it to the environment - is nonsense as we were a big part of these green measures.

Once we seemed like victims, it was easy to make the EU sound evil.

We should have known better than most what leaving would mean. It would be like France or Germany choosing to leave. Some of the smaller states might well see less of an impact, but even they are now clearly going to want to remain part of the EU having seen our somewhat successful attempt at self harming.

 

[class ep-09]

... and the EU did phenomenally well out of us. There was never a balanced trade. They sold us more than we sold them. That's why we have been diversifying elsewhere. In 2019, the UK recorded an overall trade deficit with the EU of -£79 billion. A surplus of £18 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£97 billion on trade in goods.
Yes, lets not get the facts get in the way.

But it is good here. All forums on all sites on politics bring out the worst in people. I wonder if there is a religious thread here on a Railway forum.

So, as I understand you correctly it is EU’s fault that UK does not produce enough of ... everything. and sells us more than we sell ( or used to ) to them ....

You just could not make it up...

Guess what, free trading blocks are free trading blocks.
You buy , sell anything in any quantity to anyone within that block , so complaining that there is too much stuff coming in which we need, and blaming that it is due to being part of that trading block is just bonkers.

Do you think by leaving the EU , the deficit will go down ( btw trade deficit is not necessary something bad )?

It goes further, you brexiters screwed the exports big time .
There is 68% drop in trade going out comparing January year to year.

It is systematic rather than “teething problem” and many companies stoped trading or are setting up the shop in the EU , giving jobs and taxes to the EU countries.
BTW, our government advised them to do so , how stupid is that???

Tell me , how is that going to help trade deficit with the EU, especially that there are no checks for good coming in for the time being???

From July , there will be checks for goods going out and coming in, otherwise UK will be in breach of WTO rules (remember WTO , that unelected , bureaucratic gravy train that we could not vote for and its courts ??? )

Trouble is that we desperately need the goods coming in , especially food.

 

[najaB]

There was never a balanced trade. They sold us more than we sold them.

In other words: they made more that we wanted to buy than we made that they wanted to buy.

And that's their fault how, exactly?

 

[eoff]

Oh, you have got to be kidding.

We pretty much designed the single market ourselves. It was a Thatcherite wet dream, and we pretty much bullied the rest of Europe into adopting a system that was specifically designed to benefit us.

Strange to rebut a post about the EU with a comment about the EEC.

 

[najaB]

Strange to rebut a post about the EU with a comment about the EEC.

Not really. The Single Market is one of the core pillars of the EU, and is the one that Brexit supporters rail against most frequently. So it is a valid point that creation of the single market was largely driven by the UK.

 

[nlogax]

I see the delusional alternative universe constructed to fit a Brexiteer narrative is still a thing in this thread. Depressing.

 

[RichT54]

I see the delusional alternative universe constructed to fit a Brexiteer narrative is still a thing in this thread. Depressing.

The really depressing thing is that a lot of them don't actually believe in the alternative 'facts' they spout. I'm sure that many of them do realise the harm they have done to this country and will continue to do in the future, but they don't care. They hate the EU so much, they are happy for the UK to suffer, as long as it's outside the EU. Their false statements are just made to muddy the waters and distract people from what is really happening. This must be one of the biggest cases of 'cutting your nose off to spite your face' in history.

 

[Dave1987]

So after the BoJo Govt accused the EU of "vaccine nationalism" it turns out that BoJo had a stipulation in the AZ contract that all vaccine doses being made in the UK would go to the UK first and the UK would get all its allocation before anywhere else. I mean wow. To accuse others of vaccine nationalism it very very hypocritical but then what's new with BoJo? After calling the EU disgraceful over the threat to enact Article 16 in Ireland, BoJo has now himself threatened to enact Article 16 if the EU does not capitulate in renegotiating the Brexit agreement over NI.