Annetts key
Established Member
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Brexit matters
- Thread starter Xenophon PCDGS
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RailUK Forums
I mean I'm not sure that referendum really can be considered to have been conducted in anything approaching a free and fair manner. What with the Russian troops already being on the ground when it was being held. Dunno if I'd fancy voting any way other than the Putin approved way if there were Russian troops hanging out in my neighbourhoodBut the point remains. Those are Ukrainian waters which have been annexed by the Russian Federation dodgy referendum or not.
Exercising the rights of free navigation. As far as I'm aware HMS Defender was utilising a recognised transit corridor. If Russia gets sensitive about it (perhaps because they don't like attention being drawn to their illegal occupation?) about ships exercising their rights that sounds like a problem for them. Doesn't seem much different to me to Russian warships and submarines sailing down the English Channel and whilst certain sections of the media like to report it in breathless tones it isn't particularly thrilling stuff as we (and our NATO allies) don't seem to have the need to go around buzzing their ships with aircraft and conducting potentially unsafe manoeuvres nearby let alone threatening them with opening fire on their innocent passage.
No response I take it to the my question as to why we should change our foreign policy to seemingly ignore an obviously hostile actor like Russia just because of Brexit?
Seems a sub-optimal way of organising the defence of the European continent of which we remain a part. Quite apart from there being no policy proposal anyway that I'm aware of that this is how that defence should be organised.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Is it not an amazing coincidence that several journalists were on board to witness the sabres being rattled.
Annetts key
Established Member
I noticed that too.
Annetts key
Established Member
I suspect the Navy and government expected this action from Russia.
And now EE has announced you'll need to pay £2 per day to use your data in the EU from January.
There will be a charge for those who want to pay for 30 days access, which is yet to be confirmed. But, hey, let's pay for something we didn't have to pay for before.. The Brexit Dividend in full swing!
I can't wait to see what Three does, because last time it offered free data (before the EU introduced the new protections) it throttled data to such a degree that most services wouldn't work abroad, and they then tried to blame the foreign operators (which works well for Brexiteers - if you can't now use data abroad, it's clearly the fault of the EU trying to punish us!).
There will be a charge for those who want to pay for 30 days access, which is yet to be confirmed. But, hey, let's pay for something we didn't have to pay for before.. The Brexit Dividend in full swing!
I can't wait to see what Three does, because last time it offered free data (before the EU introduced the new protections) it throttled data to such a degree that most services wouldn't work abroad, and they then tried to blame the foreign operators (which works well for Brexiteers - if you can't now use data abroad, it's clearly the fault of the EU trying to punish us!).
Is it? Media presence on Royal Navy warships is hardly unusual especially for large deployments like Carrier Strike Group 21 which Defender is part of. Plus they were on their way from Odessa where a defence agreement has just been signed providing UK support by transferring old Sandown class minehunters to the Ukrainian Navy as well as providing other support such as working on training Ukrainian sailors, procuring new missile systems, new fast patrol craft etc. Seems logical for their to have been a media presence for that. Plus Defender is now off to another recent victim of Russian aggression, Georgia where I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's some more deals to be signed which would require a media presence. Considering that Queen Elizabeth is currently undertaking combat operations I can well imagine that they decided to shuffle the defence correspondents onto something that was meant to be a little more low key. And to be honest, likely more interesting considering that they aren't going to be riding along in the cock pit and the Royal Navy is more than capable of producing footage to show off aircraft taking off and coming back (and indeed have done).
Plus, recall, that Defender transited an internationally recognised transit lane exercising her freedom of navigation rights. That's part and parcel of the business of the Royal Navy (and others) to ensure that the seas are available to all who wish to use them legally. Again it is the Russian reaction which is out of all proportion to what occurred. They regularly transit the English Channel, they regularly fly long range aircraft at UK airspace (often violating the rules of the air by not responding to air traffic control and not broadcasting transponders whilst doing so) and, as far as I'm aware, we've never reacted in such an open hostile way to them exercising their rights of free navigation.
On a good day I trust Boris and his Government about as far as I could throw them. But I don't see some conspiracy at work here.
I'm sure they expected them to do something. Something similar to this did after all happen in 2018 when a Channel 5 documentary crew were onboard filming a deployment of HMS Duncan (again media presence on interesting deployments isn't unusual).
Moment 17 Russian jets swarmed UK destroyer
Russian fighter jets came dangerously close to HMS Duncan and risked crashing as their electronics could have been scrambled by the warship's radar.
Probably didn't expect this visit it to be quite so exciting however! But this is what happens. The year after (2019) a Russian Navy destroyer conducted extremely unsafe manoeuvres near USS Chancellorsville in the Philippine Sea:
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As far as I know they were sailing along an agreed transit corridor. And the waters are only disputed because of Russia's illegal invasion and annexation of Crimea (sham referendum aside).
Yet when the issue of losing free data roaming was brought up all we got was the phrase "project fear" shouted back at us by the Brexiters.
ABB125
Established Member
Was the EU's "no data roaming charges" policy a law? If so, why wasn't it taken into British law along with all the other stuff which transferred?
Even if it was, it only applies to EU mobile phone subscribers. Spoiler alert: We aren't in the EU any more.
ABB125
Established Member
Couldn't it be amended to "UK subscribers"?
This government? Implementing a law change that favours consumers over big business? Voluntarily? Yeah, right.
Indeed - we can't leave a club and still expect membership benefits!
class ep-09
Member
- Joined
- 5 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 593
Are these Russian territorial waters ???
British war ship sailed through Ukrainian waters of Crimea . Under international law the waters of Crimea has never been recognised as Russian and Russian occupation of Crimea is illegal .
Indeed. The most one could say is that they are "disputed" waters.
No idea on that bit, but we're now liable for the wholesale rates that will force networks to either impose fees OR find ways to reduce data usage (restrict certain services, prevent tethering etc). My guess is the rules are simply that as an EU member, you do not pay certain fees, so there wasn't a law to transfer as such.
They couldn't be expected to continue as things were, now they're being charged more. Likewise, it's likely people in the EU will have to charge more for when roaming here (which I suppose Brexiteers can see as a win).
Back in 2012 and even before the media was full of 'bill shock' stories every year around summer time, with the usual sad face photos in the likes of the Daily Mail etc.
The EU started the process to reduce, then axe, roaming fees over a five year period - but I think they actually enacted it a year early in the end. In recent years, the EU even made it so you could stream your video services when roaming - but that already ended in January. Who wants to watch Sky Sports on holiday??
Now it seems we're on a route to gradually get back to where we were, when people had to pay hundreds or - literally - thousands. I doubt we'll see fees quite like that again, but even adding £20-30 per person on to the cost of a holiday, on top of the higher travel insurance bills, new costs for using a debit/credit card, and probably other fees I've not even thought of, means that the average family may now pay £200-300 or more extra for their summer holiday.
I suppose some might say that if they can't afford that, they should probably stay home. Let those with money go instead.
I find it amusing that it was a Tory MP (as an MEP) that was championing the removal of the fees. As is so common, the UK played a big part in the many EU rules that benefitted us - and now we've thrown it all down the toilet.
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Did the EU roaming rules actually change how the networks charged each other, or merely what they are allowed to charge to their customers? If it's the latter, then the UK networks have always been getting charged these rates, but were forced to each any costs.
Reading https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/internet-telecoms/mobile-roaming-costs/index_en.htm it seems as if there was always provision in the EU rules for operators to charge limited additional fees for roaming or put in limits. I assume none of our operators did due to the very competitive market in the UK for mobile services that means any operator obviously charging more will lose all its customers to its cheaper rivals.
Are any of the recently announced charges not allowed by that page?
Interesting defence of imperialism.
berneyarms
Established Member
I've edited my post - should read more carefully!
The EU imposed restrictions on the wholesale charges, and operators were allowed to (and did) impose limits to prevent abuse (but NOT to throttle data or restrict services as net neutrality was part of it too). This is why at midnight when the fees were ended, Three users were suddenly able to download apps without throttling and use YouTube etc without issue. Three had offered free roaming even before the EU imposed restrictions, and so they had to limit actual usage as they were losing money from heavy users [they also lost money on the One Plan before mobile termination rates were dropped in the UK, but the publicity was very good for them and now everyone has unlimited texts/calls thanks to the actions of Three, BT and others].
Tethering was often restricted too, so using your phone as a hotspot in a hotel or at a meeting etc was something you either couldn't do, or had to pay extra to do (or even have a dedicated mobile broadband plan, with much lower allowances for a much higher cost).
It seems possible that the EU will still not allow throttling, so maybe we won't see a degradation in service quality. To be honest, I think it's more likely that Ofcom does away with the protections for UK users in due course, just as the FCC did in the USA under Trump.
I read on a forum that Three has now dropped the amount of data you can use in the EU to 12GB. I'll need to check the price guide, but over the coming months expect to see many more changes - and for things to get worse at every tariff review.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
How about giving NATO the job of patrolling the English Channel and sorting out the immigrants who seem to want to leave EU territory.... 
StKeverne1497
Member
Fair enough. I get worked up enough about the ways people mangle my own language - Welsh - and the placenames around here.I don't want to be particularly picky, but can I point out that firstly the name of my country in English is "Ireland" and in the Irish language is "Éire". If you are writing/speaking in English it's "Ireland". I'm assuming that you don't speak Irish!
As far as I'm concerned, it's "Iwerddon"
M.
Most ‘immigrants’ are no longer leaving the EU to come to the UK because of Brexit and we are having a shortage of available workers for hospitality and other industries as a result.How about giving NATO the job of patrolling the English Channel and sorting out the immigrants who seem to want to leave EU territory....
But I think you are referring to asylum seekers who are crossing the Channel on dingies. Well, most asylum seekers are staying in mainland Europe. Only a minority continue to the UK, however some people have been made to believe they are all trying to get to the UK which is not true.
Tazi Hupefi
Established Member
O2 have introduced a cap of 25GB.
3 have introduced a reduced cap of 12GB (from 20GB) but more countries (£76)
EE are charging £2 a day for roaming (or a one off £10 bolt on valid for 30 days roaming)
I personally don't think £10 for a month of roaming in the EU on EE is all that bad. Certainly not great, but £10 is hardly going to break the bank when for most people it's an absolute tiny proportion of the other costs associated with going overseas. As usual with these things, there will no doubt be offers and promotions throughout the year that some packages get the free roaming back etc. Market forces will level all this out. Most EE smart plan packages already let you choose 1 or 2 free extra benefits like better roaming already, along with BT Sport and Amazon Prime Video etc.
For me it's that we've made things worse. It's not as bad as it could be sure. But we had something that was good and now we have something less good. Trying to spin this as a positive just seems ridiculous. Especially when concerns were raised that exactly something like this could happen were previously dismissed as "Project Fear". Now they've happened its "well its not that bad is it?".
I pay £10 a month in total with Smarty for unlimited calls, texts, 30GB of UK data, and EU roaming including 12GB of data. It doesn't include Switzerland though, so I'll need to switch, perhaps to Three, when I start work travel again.
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What if they start to restrict YouTube, Netflix and other streaming services (as Three did - allowing very limited access to many services but no restriction on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter), or stop you sharing your data with a laptop so you can use it in your hotel room? Or share the Internet connection with your kids' tablet to keep them quiet?
A lot of people won't understand the finer details like this, and won't realise the impact, but the EU changes were about far more than axing fees - it was about net neutrality. Something we need to keep fighting for as I don't really want a network choosing what services it will let me use unhindered, while others are blocked or they ask me for money to unlock.
Don't get me wrong; these are the issues we have roaming outside the EU. I remember when Orange charged £25 per MB (yes, MB not GB) to use data in Hong Kong. It was around £8 per MB elsewhere. I somehow don't want us to return to anything remotely like this. For sure, they won't be going back to those eye watering rates, but there will still be charges that didn't exist for the last 4 years and were controlled for 5 years before that.
We worked so hard to get rid of these charges, mostly because of those horror stories in the press, but now some people think it's fine. The networks won't make the drastic changes overnight - they'll bide their time. Give it six months or a year and see how it gets more expensive, not less.
A lot of people won't understand the finer details like this, and won't realise the impact, but the EU changes were about far more than axing fees - it was about net neutrality. Something we need to keep fighting for as I don't really want a network choosing what services it will let me use unhindered, while others are blocked or they ask me for money to unlock.
Don't get me wrong; these are the issues we have roaming outside the EU. I remember when Orange charged £25 per MB (yes, MB not GB) to use data in Hong Kong. It was around £8 per MB elsewhere. I somehow don't want us to return to anything remotely like this. For sure, they won't be going back to those eye watering rates, but there will still be charges that didn't exist for the last 4 years and were controlled for 5 years before that.
We worked so hard to get rid of these charges, mostly because of those horror stories in the press, but now some people think it's fine. The networks won't make the drastic changes overnight - they'll bide their time. Give it six months or a year and see how it gets more expensive, not less.
The frog also doesn't think that the water is getting hot...