Brexit matters

[21C101]

By that measure Slovenia is "winning", for want of a better word, but a word Brexiteers probably understand best.

You keep moving the goal posts.

You will be anti-EU regardless of what happens, so any kind of rational debate is clearly pointless as your mind is made up.

The fact is the UK has left the EU, so you'll need to find a new boogeyman to blame the ills of the UK

I said large nations. So excluding places like Israel, Slovenia and whichever Arab Emirate it is that is also doing rather well, as they can get a large portion of their popuation vaccined with a relativeiy small number of doses.

 

[Doppelganger]

I said large nations. So excluding places like Israel, Slovenia and whichever Arab Emirate it is that is also doing rather well, as they can get a large portion of their popuation vaccined with a relativeiy small number of doses.

Italy has a comparable population that has a higher full vaccine rollout.

You will rubbish whatever is presented that doesn't suit your narrative.

 

[Dave1987]

Unlike the EU single market, membership of CPTPP does not force Britain to pay more than £10 billion a year, adopt laws from a foreign entity, have free movement of people with no controls on immigration, or accept rulings from a foreign court.

At the end of the day you clearly despise the EU despite what it was originally setup for. But the one fact that you nor any other hardcore Brexiteers can’t get away from is that the UK is a tiny island on the north west corner of *Europe*. All countries throughout the world generally do most of their trade with those that are geographically close to the by virtue that they are close. Yes we can join the CPTPP and have to abide by the regulations of the CPTPP for which we had no say in the creation of those rules. Canada and Japan have protections in place for their own industries as part of the CPTPP. I wonder whether those nations will grant the UK any protections seeing as we are asking to join rather than being part of the original setup? I doubt it. So as part of joining the CPTPP we will be forced to comply with regulations that we had no say in thereby sacrificing sovereignty. The UK had a veto whilst part of the EU to any regulations and actually got a lot of what it wanted and got concessions out of the other 27 countries. Right now the U.K. is going around with a begging bowl trying to see if can join any other clubs now it burnt its bridges with the big club it was part of. Only problem is is that going around with the begging bowl means clubs you want to join will undoubtedly have rules for you to follow which you probably won’t have a say in. If the BoJo can pull off a barnstorming trade deal like creating a free trade deal with the US, India, Africa, South America and parts of Asia and keep free trade links with the EU I will gladly admit I was wrong. Absolutely none of that is even on the horizon. Just the U.K. replicating some parts of trade deals the EU already had and trying to join the CPTPP which will mean more rules to follow.

 

[Journeyman]

Unlike the EU single market, membership of CPTPP does not force Britain to pay more than £10 billion a year, adopt laws from a foreign entity, have free movement of people with no controls on immigration, or accept rulings from a foreign court.

The EU is not a "foreign entity". It is a democratic international organisation of which we were a very influential part. UK civil servants had a huge part in designing the single market.

CPTPP is completely unaccountable to ordinary people and provides them with none of the benefits, checks, balances or representation that EU membership did.

 

[Dave1987]

The EU is not a "foreign entity". It is a democratic international organisation of which we were a very influential part. UK civil servants had a huge part in designing the single market.

CPTPP is completely unaccountable to ordinary people and provides them with none of the benefits, checks, balances or representation that EU membership did.

Very much so! The CPTPP will be a case of here are some rules to follow if you want to join, if you don’t like it tough you wanted to join. But then again hardcore Brexiteers won’t have a mean nasty horrible EU to blame for more rules to follow if we join the CPTPP.

 

[21C101]

Italy has a comparable population that has a higher full vaccine rollout.

You will rubbish whatever is presented that doesn't suit your narrative.

I don't know where you are getting the data that you are using to basically accuse me of lying, but I think you need to cast your net wider.

The figures are widely published. I quote number of people given at least one dose of vaccine. Edit: vaccine doses administered per 100 people.


UK = 13.05%

Highest in EU is tiny Malta at 5.85%, less than half of UK population propurtion.

Slovenia which you previously trumpeted is 3.64% of the population, Italy at 3.15%, both less than a quarter of the UK proportion.

And as for someone else to blame now we are out of the EU. If the government mess up they will be blamed and removed from office at the next election. That is the whole point of Brexit.


[Edit - I see what you have done, used the figures for people who have had both doses. This is tiny for all countries but psrticularly so for the UK because UK policy is to delay the second dose to maximise those getting the first dose, which is likely to become WHO reccomendation before long]

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations

Explore data on COVID-19 vaccinations across the world.

ourworldindata.org

 

[Doppelganger]

But then again hardcore Brexiteers won’t have a mean nasty horrible EU to blame for more rules to follow if we join the CPTPP.

Oh, I don't know. I'm seeing plenty continuing the EU and I think some may do it in perpetuity.

I think it is all some of them have, in the way it has become a core part of their identity and so if they lose it, they lose something of themselves.

I don't know where you are getting the data that you are using to basically accuse me of lying, but I think you need to cast your net wider.

The figures are widely published. I quote number of people given at least one dose of vaccine.


UK = 13.05%

Highest in EU is tiny Malta at 5.85%, less than half of UK population propurtion.

Slovenia which you previously trumpeted is 3.64% of the population, Italy at 3.15%, both less than a quarter of the UK proportion.

And as for someone else to blame now we are out of the EU. If the government mess up they will be blamed and removed from office at the next election. That is the whole point of Brexit.

I'm getting it here, which in turn is sourced from each countries official sources.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations

Explore data on COVID-19 vaccinations across the world.

ourworldindata.org

It's quite a good site and presents a multitude of data across a variety of countries.

The data set I referred to was countries that have given the full vaccine e.g. if 2 or more doses are required.

I think this is an important distinction as the UK have decided to delay the 2nd dose for many despite WHO and manufacturer advice. In short, it looks like the UK is rushing their vaccination programme because they took such a poor approach to stemming the spread of the virus in the 1st place.

 

[21C101]

Oh, I don't know. I'm seeing plenty continuing the EU and I think some may do it in perpetuity.

I think it is all some of them have, in the way it has become a core part of their identity and so if they lose it, they lose something of themselves.


I'm getting it here, which in turn is sourced from each countries official sources.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations

Explore data on COVID-19 vaccinations across the world.

ourworldindata.org

It's quite a good site and presents a multitude of data across a variety of countries.

The data set I referred to was countries that have given the full vaccine e.g. if 2 or more doses are required.

I think this is an important distinction as the UK have decided to delay the 2nd dose for many despite WHO and manufacturer advice. In short, it looks like the UK is rushing their vaccination programme because they took such a poor approach to stemming the spread of the virus in the 1st place.

I tbink it is sophistry worthy of Alistair Campbell. WHO are looking at what the UK is doing with interest and an imminent change in WHO recommendation to align with what the UK is doing is expected in some quarters.

Edit. Indeed EU countries are seriously considering switching to the UK policy (see link)

As cases spike, Europe mulls delaying 2nd coronavirus vaccine shot

While the UK’s approach has been supported by many scientists, it lacks the rigor of controlled testing the UK is so well-versed in.

www.politico.eu

 

[nlogax]

I tbink it is sophistry worthy of Alistair Campbell. WHO are looking at what the UK is doing with interest and an imminent change in WHO recommendation to align with what the UK is doing is expected in some quarters.

You have an actual source for that or has Mystic Meg peed in your coffee?

 

[Domh245]

It's quite a good site and presents a multitude of data across a variety of countries.

The data set I referred to was countries that have given the full vaccine e.g. if 2 or more doses are required.

I think this is an important distinction as the UK have decided to delay the 2nd dose for many despite WHO and manufacturer advice. In short, it looks like the UK is rushing their vaccination programme because they took such a poor approach to stemming the spread of the virus in the 1st place.

It's very misleading though. Given the context of "would we have had doses at all" had we been in the EU procurement program, you need to compare total doses given, not full courses completed.

FWIW, it's only going against the advice for the pfizer vaccine, but even then it's a "we don't have data" rather than a "this is a bad idea". It's objectively the best solution unless you've got very low levels of covid incidence in the population - 2 people at 50% (noting that said figure includes the time for the vaccine to start working) are better than 1 at 95%

You have an actual source for that or has Mystic Meg peed in your coffee?

From WHO's briefing on 8th January (my bolding)

Countries experiencing exceptional epidemiological circumstances may consider delaying for a short period the administration of the second dose as a pragmatic approach to maximizing the number of individuals benefiting from a first dose while vaccine supply continues to increase. WHO’s recommendation at present is that the interval between doses may be extended up to 42 days (6 weeks), on the basis of currently available clinical trial data. Should additional data become available on longer intervals between doses, revision of this recommendation will be considered. Countries should ensure that any such programme adjustments to dose intervals do not affect the likelihood of receiving the second dose.

Doesn't suggest that the change is imminent, but quite clearly that's them saying they're looking at what's happening here

 

[najaB]

Still a much much lower percentage of their population than the UK.

That's not what you said though. And I wouldn't say that ~8% (USA) is "much lower" than ~12% (UK). Plus the USA hasn't fudged things by extending the delay for the second dose.

 

[21C101]

That's not what you said though. And I wouldn't say that ~8% (USA) is "much lower" than ~12% (UK). Plus the USA hasn't fudged things by extending the delay for the second dose.

If you say so. I think I've made the point well enough for anyone reading with an open mind.

I'm not going to get into a "have the last word" competition.

 

[Beemax]

Indeed, we would hwve been in the EU joint scheme and had hardly anyone vaccinated with no prospect of that changing any time soon, and as no other large nation has got anywhere near as many vaccines done as the UK has, the EU would probably have got away with it.


Unlike the EU single market, membership of CPTPP does not force Britain to pay more than £10 billion a year, adopt laws from a foreign entity, have free movement of people with no controls on immigration, or accept rulings from a foreign court.

We arranged our own scheme while we were still operating under EU rules. Indeed, Germany , Hungary and possibly others are going their own way and don't need to leave the EU to do it. The benefit of the eu scheme is mostly for smaller countries. Eu is not one size fits all. We have been able to go our own way on several things (the pound, the Queen, driving on the left, beer served in pints.) If the eu was 100% compulsory harmonisation I'd be a Brexiteer too.

 

[nlogax]

Doesn't suggest that the change is imminent, but quite clearly that's them saying they're looking at what's happening here

Thanks. Yes... not sure where this 'imminent' thing is coming from. Of course this should probably be in the appropriate subforum.

I'm not going to get into a "have the last word" competition.

And yet even after 'leaving' the thread twice, somehow you're still here. Got it.

We arranged our own scheme while we were still operating under EU rules. Indeed, Germany , Hungary and possibly others are going their own way and don't need to leave the EU to do it. The benefit of the eu scheme is mostly for smaller countries. Eu is not one size fits all. We have been able to go our own way on several things (the pound, the Queen, driving on the left, beer served in pints.) If the eu was 100% compulsory harmonisation I'd be a Brexiteer too.

The determination of brexiteers to ignore the myriad and very real nuances and flexibility of our EU membership still floors me.

 

[37424]

The EU haven't covered themselves in glory over the last few days and I have re examined how I feel about the EU and have come to the following conclusion.

I voted Remain mainly due to the potential economic damage we might suffer but certainly I was no great lover of many aspects of the EU and I think that is true for a number of people that voted Remain.

Now of course we have left and frankly we need to get on with it and try and make it work, yes we are going to take some economic hit from the deal the government has adopted, but to a large degree the damage is done now and we are going to have to adjust and adapt.

I have now asked myself the following question about the EU

In favour of the Euro? No
In favour of closer integration? No
In favour of the European Parliament? No
In favour of Freedom of Movement? No
In favour of the Single Market? No not if its mean we have to accept unlimited Freedom of Movement
In favour of a Customs Union? No not if it affects our ability to do Trade Deals independently with other countries at least not until we have given it a fair crack of the whip.
In favour of a simple trade deal with the EU? Yes

So despite voting remain the conclusion for me is that we shouldn't consider re-joining the EU for the foreseeable future and should only consider a closer trade relationship if the alternate future we build doesn't work too well and our economy suffers too much.

I also agree with the Brexiteers in this respect, that if the UK does OK outside the EU, then demands for an EU exit from some other countries may become strong.

On a lighter note Shapps has announced that most EU countries are going to accept a UK Photocard Driving Licence without the need for an International Driving Permit, and also if you have GB on your number plate you wont need a GB sticker.

 

[REVUpminster]

I voted to remain in the European Communities membership in 1975 under the labour Government. Never got the chance as many countries did in referendums on the Maastricht Treaty and on other smaller issues that countries required them to hold a referendum. Sweden had a referendum on joining the Euro and the people voted against so to this day Sweden has ignored EU rules to join as they did not have an opt out like the UK and Denmark.

All the British prime ministers said they would get reforms but none succeeded except maybe Thatcher's rebate.

So I voted leave in 2016

As for other countries leaving, some think it will be eastern european countries but I wonder about Sweden if they held a referendum.

 

[21C101]

I get the impression that many remainers are committed to the European ideal of solidarity and the ideal of what the EU should be, not the reality of what the institution of the EU is in practice.

Their response to its failings is to want to redouble efforts to make it a shining city on a hill.

Those of us who see that as being as futile and as impossible as any other utopian dream are therefore seen as beyond the pale and selfishly letting the side down.

In a minority the desire seems to be to bind the UK government, to restrain the perceived dominance of the English ruling class within it.

 

[nlogax]

As for other countries leaving, some think it will be eastern european countries but I wonder about Sweden if they held a referendum.

I still think it'll be an eastern European country that will be chucked out rather than leave of its own accord. For many the prime candidates for a managed exit seem to be Spain and Italy. Sweden isn't anywhere near the top of the list.

 

[najaB]

I get the impression that many remainers are committed to the European ideal of solidarity and the ideal of what the EU should be, not the reality of what the institution of the EU is in practice

Imagine that. People's attitude to membership of the EU being based on an intangible concept, rather than specific measurable realities. What will they think of next?

 

[REVUpminster]

I don't think it will be Spain. I went on holiday to Almeria on a pilgrimage to the spaghetti western town of Fort Bravo/Texas Holywood and stayed in a hotel on the coast frequented mainly by Spaniards and you could see all the money spent on new roads, a hospital and housing but the sting in the tail was the houses were empty. No work except in the hotels and huge 24 hour tomato growing fields under enormous cloches.

The EU does spend a lot of money on regions such as Cornwall but all it did was drive up property prices so that only second homers can afford them leaving villages and some small towns half deserted in the winter. Some councils have double the council tax on second homes but if you can afford the home you can afford the tax.

 

[najaB]

The EU does spend a lot of money on regions such as Cornwall but all it did was drive up property prices so that only second homers can afford them leaving villages and some small towns half deserted in the winter.

Because, of course, the idea of Londonites having a second home in Cornwall or Devon is a concept that didn't exist prior to 1974.

 

[REVUpminster]

Because, of course, the idea of Londonites having a second home in Cornwall or Devon is a concept that didn't exist prior to 1974.

Not on the scale it is now. I always thought the government did not spend a lot of money on Cornwall or Devon because it was a fertile area of recruitment for the army and navy. In fact covid has boosted recruitment to the armed services.

 

[Dave1987]

I get the impression that many remainers are committed to the European ideal of solidarity and the ideal of what the EU should be, not the reality of what the institution of the EU is in practice.

Their response to its failings is to want to redouble efforts to make it a shining city on a hill.

Those of us who see that as being as futile and as impossible as any other utopian dream are therefore seen as beyond the pale and selfishly letting the side down.

In a minority the desire seems to be to bind the UK government, to restrain the perceived dominance of the English ruling class within it.

What I find rather amusing is Brexiteers absolute determination that Sovereignty is what the UK wants. And the UK wants the absolute power to make its own rules and regulations. The environment secretary was quoted as saying that the UK maintains extremely high standards on animal welfare and food standards and will not be told to reduce them as part of any trade deals. Yet the CPTPP that the UK is desperate to join will mean that the UK is forced to accept lower standards if it wants to join. Also the UK is unlikely to get any veto over who else joins the CPTPP or any choice in any changes to the rules of the CPTPP or any protections to British industry by joining the CPTPP. So we have won our Sovereignty from Brussels even though we had great influence over the rules made by them, and then immediately giving away Sovereignty to a trade bloc of which the nearest country is 3000 miles away. Come on if you want Remainers to admit Brexit was a good thing you have got to do better than that!! Ow and I don't see the BoJo Government giving the UK population a vote on whether we want to join the CPTPP. So we get a vote on whether we want to leave the EU but not one on whether we want to join another trade bloc and sacrifice Sovereignty, hypocrisy of the highest order!!

I voted to remain in the European Communities membership in 1975 under the labour Government. Never got the chance as many countries did in referendums on the Maastricht Treaty and on other smaller issues that countries required them to hold a referendum. Sweden had a referendum on joining the Euro and the people voted against so to this day Sweden has ignored EU rules to join as they did not have an opt out like the UK and Denmark.

All the British prime ministers said they would get reforms but none succeeded except maybe Thatcher's rebate.

So I voted leave in 2016

As for other countries leaving, some think it will be eastern european countries but I wonder about Sweden if they held a referendum.

Brexiteers believed that post the 2016 referendum that one Britain has voted to leave that the EU would just crumble. It hasn't. Yes the EU have their internal squabbles but no more than the UK does. There was a great deal of hope from Brexiteers that Holland would follow suit and quit the EU but a recent poll suggested that any referendum on leaving the EU would result in a massive majority to remain in the EU. Holland etc all very much benefit from the completely free movement of goods and people. The flow of goods from Rotterdam to the rest of the EU is seamless and extremely efficient.

 

[birchesgreen]

Far far more chance of the UK breaking up than the EU lets face it.

 

[nlogax]

Far far more chance of the UK breaking up than the EU lets face it.

I'd agree with that.

 

[py_megapixel]

Far far more chance of the UK breaking up than the EU lets face it.

I'd agree with that.

Same here.

We're a comparatively tiny island nation with a hugely incompetent government. We are far more unstable than the EU at this point.

 

[najaB]

Not on the scale it is now.

Nothing at all to do with the growth of financial services and the bankers having cash to flash.

 

[jon0844]

It's extremely depressing to see leavers gleefully jumping all over an error of judgement on the EU's part. They've quickly backtracked on it, and you'd think by the way leavers are gloating that the UK has never made any foreign policy errors ever.

Seems it got the result it wanted though. Now AstraZeneca is going to ship more quickly to the EU, and there's even talk the UK might give some of its supply to the EU.

 

[ainsworth74]

Far far more chance of the UK breaking up than the EU lets face it.

I'd agree with that.

Same here.

We're a comparatively tiny island nation with a hugely incompetent government. We are far more unstable than the EU at this point.

Must admit I'm already trying to come to terms emotionally with the likely break up of my country which is not quite where I expected to be only five year ago. I well remember waking up on the Friday morning after Indy Ref 1 with the great sense of relief that my country wasn't about to break up. I suspect it won't be many more years before I wake up and get to experience the opposite.

Still, at least Brexiteers are presumably happy with what they've wrought?

 

[py_megapixel]

Must admit I'm already trying to come to terms emotionally with the likely break up of my country which is not quite where I expected to be only five year ago. I well remember waking up on the Friday morning after Indy Ref 1 with the great sense of relief that my country wasn't about to break up. I suspect it won't be many more years before I wake up and get to experience the opposite.

Still, at least Brexiteers are presumably happy with what they've wrought?

Frankly, I (living in England FWIW) am not really bothered by the prospect of Scotland becoming independent, and if they will subsequently attempt negotiations to rejoin the EU, then more power to them.

What I am bothered about is the Tory government in Westminster, who seem to be attempting to systematically take everything positive about this country and rip it to shreds, and with EU protections removed, there seems to be little to stop them now except commitments they've made. Which we know they'll always keep...