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Brexit matters

JamesT

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Trying to lock two different currencies together was always going to be difficult. In fact, I don't agree with trying this. As the likelihood of failure is too great. The international traders power is far greater than the government or Bank of England's power in the money markets.

However, if the U.K. was to join the Euro, there would no longer be a pound sterling to trade against.

IMHO, we don't actually loose much with regards to "independently setting interest rates". Our interest rate is more often than not, not far from the current EU interest rate. Combining our economy with the EU economy is likely to make the Euro more stable. And hence this would be good for the U.K.

There are also other reasons that would be an advantage for us. Especially for businesses that trade with the EU.
If the UK and Eurozone economies are sufficiently aligned, then joining would be advantageous. But all the evidence to date is that they aren’t. E.g. Brown’s Five Economic Tests which were never passed.
The pound has varied between 1.1 and 1.6 euros, over the last 25 years, which would be the right level to fix at? Although Sterling would be gone, the effect of relative competitiveness is effectively frozen at the rate you pick. The pound had a sharp devaluation in 2008 after the financial crash which arguably assisted the recovery, that would no longer be possible in a future event.
As a country with a sovereign currency, government can work together with the central bank. In the Eurozone they can’t tailor things to the same extent as one country may want a rise whilst another needs a fall.
The poster child for this is Greece. Who have many problems that the UK doesn’t necessarily have. But several of Greece’s issues over the last couple of decades have been exacerbated by the inability to do the usual thing of devaluing their currency and resetting the relationship with their trading partners.
A reduction in costs from not having to convert currencies when trading is small beer compared to the massive potential costs of losing those economic levers.
 
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najaB

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Whether they could close it retrospectively for Sweden is a potentially more difficult question
That's true. But the fact that they didn't seek to close it prior to the most recent expansion phase suggests that it isn't a priority.
 

jon0844

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Probably too many people are emotionally attached to the £ for that to be popular, but yes, I suspect it will be up for negotiation. Plenty of EU countries don't use the Euro, after all.

I wonder how other countries did it, when they must have been attached to their currencies also?

Plus, today we're moving towards more and more people using cards to make payments and perhaps £10-20 of 'emergency' cash. People have probably never been so detached from handling cash, and while there are a group of conspiracy theorists that believe it's all part of a plot to get rid of cash altogether, I wonder if the nation as a whole would actually be that concerned?

Sure, it's not just changing from £ to € and having some new notes; there would be major impacts on things like trade, but I don't think I'd be too upset if we agreed to adopt the Euro, even if they took a while to actually do it.
 

Smidster

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I for one am very worried about what is going to happen over the next little while - For me I think the regulations coming into force this week (and October) mark the end of me being able to afford the most basic of fruit which given going to the local market each week is really the only joy I have in life is a very sad state of affairs.

As usual the people who pushed this on us are (a) not going to be impacted and (b) denying all responsibility despite the fact that it is was the only possible result of their actions.

Happy Sunday!
 

class ep-09

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No tangible benefits? Maybe you've forgotten that Brexit allowed us to remove Freedom of Movement? I realise that you wanted to keep FOM, so you won't see its removal as a benefit, but for those of us who were concerned about the immense harm that FOM was causing to communities across the country, and the lack of housing and infrastructure combined with FOM pushing more and more people into housing-poverty etc., the removal of FOM was a huge benefit - more than enough to outweigh the various ways in which Brexit has harmed the economy.
Has removal of FOM cured the ills of this country , like housing , public services etc., ?

You tie yourselves in knots just to find any fourth rated reason for a brexir to be a “success”.

I guess you do not believe yourself what you write.
 

LBMPSB

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Older generation certainly. Younger generation that use SMARTphones for payment, contactless cards and such like, I suspect they would not be partially emotionally attached, because mostly, it's just a number...
This country is continually held back by people who talk about beng British and not destroying British traditions and identity.

The Sterling we now use is basically the Euro in all but in name. It is decimal. In 1824 it was proposed we go to decimal, lose the archaic pounds, shillings and pence, the proper Sterling. In 1842 a Decimal Association was set up. It took until 1961, yep 137 years after first proposal, when South Africa went decimal. It still took to 1966 to finally agree to decimal, then from 1969 tol 1971 it was gradually brought in. It is now accepted as "British Currency". And as pointed out, the majority are using "cashless" systems, not really being given a choice, everyone is accepting that! So what difference is there in being "sterling" or "Euro", even the exchange rate isn't far off being the same. To me it makes no difference, it is just a name.

It is like the passports. Oh look I have a British Passport it is blue! Yeah but the red Euro Passport you had much more freedom of movement. Now if I want to go to Europe, I can stay for up to 90 days in every 180 days (Rolling) without applying for a visa. If a European wants to come to the UK, they can stay for six months, go back to Europe and come back to the UK the following week and stay for another six months. When you point older generation, be careful.

Yes there are some of the older generation who don't want change "we are British", but equally there is a large number of the younger generation who hold the same beliefs. By the way I am 80. This national identity is not about currency and colour of passports, it is about traditions. If you go to Europe, despite being one body, you can still see all the old Traditions of the individual countries, the people have kept their identities. So being in Europe doesn't mean losing our British Identity as many think. It is the people that keep the traditions and country's identity going, not the Government's and bodies running the countries.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Has removal of FOM cured the ills of this country , like housing , public services etc., ?

Obviously it won't cure the harm that had already been done: The people who came here under FOM are already here and already need houses and infrastructure etc., and that's not going to change quickly: That can only get fixed over time as we build enough houses etc. to accommodate the people who are already here. The point is that stopping FOM prevents even more harm being done in the future, since it means that we don't have hundreds of thousands more people coming every year into the future under FOM rules, thereby putting even more pressure than already exists on housing.
 

nw1

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I for one am very worried about what is going to happen over the next little while - For me I think the regulations coming into force this week (and October) mark the end of me being able to afford the most basic of fruit which given going to the local market each week is really the only joy I have in life is a very sad state of affairs.

As usual the people who pushed this on us are (a) not going to be impacted and (b) denying all responsibility despite the fact that it is was the only possible result of their actions.

Happy Sunday!

What are these? I must have missed this.

Please tell me that it's not yet more Brexit-related BS making life difficult/more expensive for all of us.
 

LBMPSB

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Obviously it won't cure the harm that had already been done: The people who came here under FOM are already here and already need houses and infrastructure etc., and that's not going to change quickly: That can only get fixed over time as we build enough houses etc. to accommodate the people who are already here. The point is that stopping FOM prevents even more harm being done in the future, since it means that we don't have hundreds of thousands more people coming every year into the future under FOM rules, thereby putting even more pressure than already exists on housing.
Many people see it only one way, the numbers under FOM who came to Britain. There are huge number of British who under FOM are now enjoying their lives in homes in Europe.
 

DynamicSpirit

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What are these? I must have missed this.

Basically new inspections are being introduced on plants, fruit and vegetables etc. being imported into the UK, as part of the UK's Border Target Operating Model rules. It is alleged that the inspections will increase costs, and also that the UK doesn't have enough inspection facilities which will cause delays, risking food going off and having to be destroyed. I have no idea to what extent those fears/allegations are reasonable or to what extent they are scaremongering. I guess we'll find that out in the coming weeks. (I have to admit I'm also not clear on the precise reasons for the new inspections or therefore how well justified they are. The few newspaper reports I've been able to find about it seem to be full of scares, but very short of facts or decent analysis)
 

nw1

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Basically new inspections are being introduced on plants, fruit and vegetables etc. being imported into the UK, as part of the UK's Border Target Operating Model rules. It is alleged that the inspections will increase costs, and also that the UK doesn't have enough inspection facilities which will cause delays, risking food going off and having to be destroyed. I have no idea to what extent those fears/allegations are reasonable or to what extent they are scaremongering. I guess we'll find that out in the coming weeks. (I have to admit I'm also not clear on the precise reasons for the new inspections or therefore how well justified they are. The few newspaper reports I've been able to find about it seem to be full of scares, but very short of facts or decent analysis)

The questions we should be asking the government are:

Why are there new inspections when we didn't have them under the EU?

Are fruit and vegetables from the EU suddenly much more dangerous than they were in the past 50 years?

Does Ireland have similar restrictions?


Sounds like a perfect example of one of my big problems with Brexit: more bureaucracy and more red tape.

Many people see it only one way, the numbers under FOM who came to Britain. There are huge number of British who under FOM are now enjoying their lives in homes in Europe.
Continental Europe, of course. We are Europe, just as much as Corsica and Sicily are Europe and Manhattan is North America. (Sorry, one of my bugbears...)

But yes, very good point. FoM works both ways and if you take a pro-restriction line, you are also making life more difficult for your fellow UK citizens to move abroad.
 
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Annetts key

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If the UK and Eurozone economies are sufficiently aligned, then joining would be advantageous. But all the evidence to date is that they aren’t. E.g. Brown’s Five Economic Tests which were never passed.
The pound has varied between 1.1 and 1.6 euros, over the last 25 years, which would be the right level to fix at? Although Sterling would be gone, the effect of relative competitiveness is effectively frozen at the rate you pick. The pound had a sharp devaluation in 2008 after the financial crash which arguably assisted the recovery, that would no longer be possible in a future event.
As a country with a sovereign currency, government can work together with the central bank. In the Eurozone they can’t tailor things to the same extent as one country may want a rise whilst another needs a fall.
The poster child for this is Greece. Who have many problems that the UK doesn’t necessarily have. But several of Greece’s issues over the last couple of decades have been exacerbated by the inability to do the usual thing of devaluing their currency and resetting the relationship with their trading partners.
A reduction in costs from not having to convert currencies when trading is small beer compared to the massive potential costs of losing those economic levers.
With all due respect, a lot of what the politicians say about it is twaddle. How much of what you have written is taken from what politicians say?

Remember, members of the house of parliament, that is MPs, are supposed to be lay people. Granted, some do actually know a lot more and may be very knowledgeable in their own area.

If you use the argument that you want something (say the economy) to be sufficiently aligned, you are actually just making an excuse not to do it instead of being clear and transparent and saying you don't agree.

Any fool can come up with any number of so called 'tests', and then use the 'failure' as an excuse.

The value of the pound will fluctuate. That's the whole point of a floating currency exchange system. And there is unlikely to ever be a 'right' level at which the U.K. would join, because that would require people here to agree to what that level should or would be. And those agains are never going to agree with those that want to join.

The 'relative competitiveness' is not fixed. Our economy is not fixed. Prices of goods, services, labour and any and everything change constantly. As does the actual rate of inflation for individual goods, services and labour (rather than the official rate like CPI which is a 'basket' of items, so is subject to averaging).

Furthermore, prices of goods, services, labour etc. are in part related to the cost of fuel, and fuel (natural gas, oil, oil deprived fuels, lubricants, plastics etc.) are traded at international rates.

Devaluing your currency is not a win. The relative value of the currency affects imports and exports. If the value swings in one direction, exporters do better and importers do worse. If it swings in the other direction, importers do better and exporters do worse. Long term, both directions are worst for us as a country. The real answer is actually the policies of the government and what they actually do to fix the actual problems. Devaluing your currency will not fix fundamental internal problems in a country. One of which is a government spending more money than which they have tax income. Both the Conservatives and Labour are guilty of this or have been in the past.

Another is allowing the infrastructure or services (NHS for example) to degrade or become worse. The Conservatives are very guilty of these later points. They go on about getting people back to work but don't want to do much to improve the NHS so that workers who can't work due to medical reasons can be treated sooner. If you are waiting for months for treatment, that's months that you are off work.

The birth rate and immigration also have an effect (if the birth rate is low, immigration is a good thing for the economy and therefore the country).

When you point older generation, be careful.
Sorry, I did not mean all the older generation. I should not have been so generic.

Obviously it won't cure the harm that had already been done: The people who came here under FOM are already here and already need houses and infrastructure etc., and that's not going to change quickly: That can only get fixed over time as we build enough houses etc. to accommodate the people who are already here. The point is that stopping FOM prevents even more harm being done in the future, since it means that we don't have hundreds of thousands more people coming every year into the future under FOM rules, thereby putting even more pressure than already exists on housing.
Instead we have even more people from non-EC countries. The fundamental facts are that (1) you can't stop immigration using the methods put forward by the current government, the Conservatives are just using it for political reasons, (2) as a country, we need immigration, (3) people come here for a better life, to earn money and given the amount of effort they put into their journey, don't expect whatever any government does to make any significant difference.

Rather than wasting money on trying to stop illegal immigration, it would be far more productive to spend that money on processing legal immigration, on council housing, on the NHS, on schools and on other infrastructure.
 
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najaB

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The point is that stopping FOM prevents even more harm being done in the future, since it means that we don't have hundreds of thousands more people coming every year into the future under FOM rules, thereby putting even more pressure than already exists on housing.
Indeed.

Now we have hundreds of thousands coming under various visa rules, and without us having any reciprocal rights in return.
 

infobleep

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Indeed. But that was the status quo, so only a minority indicated a desire for change.
Funnily enough the lead singer/guitarist, Francis Rossi, from the band Status Quo actually didn't vote as he thought it would be fordrawn conclusion and we would remain. Oops as he didn't want to leave.

I voted in advance to remain and on the day worked a very busy polling station, which despite the rain had people coming out in droves to vote.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Instead we have even more people from non-EC countries. The fundamental facts are that (1) you can't stop immigration using the methods put forward by the current government,

Well yes, that's true because you can't stop immigration full stop (at least not by any ethical means). Nor should we be trying to, since people do need to move between countries, and a reasonable level of migration is beneficial. The issue is not, how can you stop immigration, but how can you keep immigration at a sustainable level. And I don't think any of the main political parties have come up with a good answer to that. At least the Conservatives have recognised that it is an important issue.

the Conservatives are just using it for political reasons,

That's an allegation that people on the left often make. It's unsubstantiated, implausible, and fails to recognise that many of us do actually believe there are good reasons for getting immigration down to sustainable levels. Why not just accept that those of us who want to see immigration reduced do genuinely believe that, rather than continually implying that we/they are somehow acting in bad faith?

(2) as a country, we need immigration, (3) people come here for a better life, to earn money

I don't dispute at all the people come here for a better life etc. I never have.

and given the amount of effort they put into their journey, don't expect whatever any government does to make any significant difference.

To some extent yes, but only because no party has yet come up with a decent answer for how to get immigration down. I don't think that changes though that we do need to find a way to do that. We can't go on with 500K+ net migration per year because right now there's no way the UK's infrastructure can sustain that rate of population increase.

Rather than wasting money on trying to stop illegal immigration, it would be far more productive to spend that money on processing legal immigration, on council housing, on the NHS, on schools and on other infrastructure.

The problem with that logic is that, if you don't spend money on trying to stop illegal immigration, then the level of illegal immigration would very quickly jump to massively greater levels. That money being spent isn't necessarily being wasted: The purpose (besides hopefully catching at least some of the people who come to the country illegally) is to deter others from trying.

It's analogous to that rate of catching/prosecuting people who commit crimes is appallingly low. But I bet you wouldn't argue on that basis that we should disband the police, and stop 'wasting' money on crime prevention, so we can spend the money on infrastructure instead!
 

najaB

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The problem with that logic is that, if you don't spend money on trying to stop illegal immigration, then the level of illegal immigration would very quickly jump to massively greater levels.
But, by the same token, it's important to ensure that money spent on reducing illegal immigration is money well spent.

£150M to send 200 asylum seekers to Rwanda doesn't seem like good value for money.

Neither does £8M a day for hotel accommodation, vs providing the Home Office the money it needs to clear the backlog of claims.
 

REVUpminster

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The farmers seem to be up in arms (ok tractors) in EUtopia due to EU policies individual governments are trying to implement.
I look at my M&S salad tomatoes; one week they come from the UK or Netherlands, Poland, Spain, and Morocco.

Immigration is a big problem and it is physically impossible to build enough houses (same in Europe although they have more land); therefore you have to make better use of the existing housing stock via taxation but forcing people to downsize is very controversial. Council housing always suffered from that problem.
After the second world war a lot of houses were built but the country exported a million £10 poms and imported fewer Windrush people.
To encourage the birth rate child allowance was not paid for the first child and then paid for the second child onwards.
 

Annetts key

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... a reasonable level of migration is beneficial. The issue is not, how can you stop immigration, but how can you keep immigration at a sustainable level.
And what is a reasonable level? No one knows. And to me, it is irrelevant. If the people coming here can't find a way to earn money, they will leave. There is a relationship between the number of immigration applications and how well our economy is doing.

That's an allegation that people on the left often make. It's unsubstantiated, implausible, and fails to recognise that many of us do actually believe there are good reasons for getting immigration down to sustainable levels. Why not just accept that those of us who want to see immigration reduced do genuinely believe that, rather than continually implying that we/they are somehow acting in bad faith?
Do you agree with the current Conservative ideas then? Because I think some of their ideas are very wrong (barbaric even).

Oh, and by the way, I am not and have never been a member of the Labour party, or indeed any other political party. I'm a floating voter.

Again what are "sustainable levels"? Again, no one knows...

To some extent yes, but only because no party has yet come up with a decent answer for how to get immigration down.
The other parties are indeed being very coy.

There are solutions. First drop all the gimmicks (Rwanda and that stupid barge for a start). You could stop the vast majority of illegal immigration in a matter of weeks. Undercut the gangs and make their business unprofitable by making legal immigration cheaper and easier. Then the state will have at least some control.

To deal with the backlog, actually invest in substantially increasing the number of staff dealing with immigration. And improve the process so that it's cheaper and quicker. Why does it take so blooming long to process applications? Doing this would benefit both the individual people and the state and in the long term would reduce the cost.

If we were to do this, the number of hotel places needed would drop substantially. Hopefully we could also close some of the other 'detention like' facilities.

At the same time, the punishments for employing illegal or undocumented workers should be increased substantially. If there is no profit in hiring illegal or undocumented workers, companies and individuals will be far less inclined to attract or hire illegal or undocumented workers. Plus the reduction of off the books / cash in hand arrangements would benefit the inland revenue.

I don't think that changes though that we do need to find a way to do that. We can't go on with 500K+ net migration per year because right now there's no way the UK's infrastructure can sustain that rate of population increase.
The problem is that we, as a country are not providing enough new infrastructure. The NHS and the schools (and other infrastructure) are in a poor state due to underinvestment, not due to immigration.

It's analogous to that rate of catching/prosecuting people who commit crimes is appallingly low. But I bet you wouldn't argue on that basis that we should disband the police, and stop 'wasting' money on crime prevention, so we can spend the money on infrastructure instead!
The vast majority of people don't commit crime because of social reasons, not due to the number of police. I don't know why the number of prosecutions of law breakers is so low. But I am not and have never suggested that we reduce the number of police. Better infrastructure can sometimes reduce the crime rate though. Also, this is rather off topic.
 

nw1

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I voted in advance to remain and on the day worked a very busy polling station, which despite the rain had people coming out in droves to vote.

It's a bit of a flippant point but it's kind of ironic that so many people voted Brexit in June 2016, an appallingly dull, wet and depressing month which (you might think) would not motivate people to vote for something which restricted emigration from the UK....
 

jon0844

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They didn't think it would stop us going to live or work in the EU. Just the other way around. They need us more than we need them, and we hold all the cards.
 

infobleep

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It's a bit of a flippant point but it's kind of ironic that so many people voted Brexit in June 2016, an appallingly dull, wet and depressing month which (you might think) would not motivate people to vote for something which restricted emigration from the UK....
If only more people who wan5es to remain braved the weather.

I do remember one person saying am I doing the right thing. My presiding officer said we can only help you in hoe to vote but not how you vote.

I think that summed it up for me. Some people were torn. Not all but some were. No idea which way the person voted of course and whether they would now wish they had voted any other way.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Do you agree with the current Conservative ideas then? Because I think some of their ideas are very wrong (barbaric even).

Partly. I think some of their ideas are correct, some are not. I would say their general focus on making it less attractive to come to the UK is in principle sound, but the implementation is at best iffy. As a couple of examples, increasing the income requirement for people on work visas seems sensible, but for people on marriage visas seems completely wrong and unreasonable. But this is straying well away from Brexit, so perhaps we should leave that discussion alone.

Again what are "sustainable levels"? Again, no one knows...

So what? What are reasonable levels to aim at in cutting crime? Or for the NHS treating people? Or for generosity of welfare benefits? Politics is full of stuff for which the actual optimum level is very subjective and so can't be precisely specified, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to decide on a decent level to aim for. Net migration levels are no different in that regard. And I think it's blindingly obvious that net migration levels have been well above any reasonable, sustainable, level for at least about 15 years.

There are solutions. First drop all the gimmicks (Rwanda and that stupid barge for a start). You could stop the vast majority of illegal immigration in a matter of weeks. Undercut the gangs and make their business unprofitable by making legal immigration cheaper and easier. Then the state will have at least some control.

That's not feasible. Make legal immigration significantly easier and the instant result will be a vast increase in legal immigration. It's a complete non-starter as a solution when legal immigration is already so high.

I would agree with you about making legal immigration cheaper though - charges for visa applications are absurdly and unfairly high, and it's pretty unlikely that reducing those charges would lead to much increase in immigration, since the main barrier for most people is not the charges but actually meeting the requirements of the immigration rules.

To deal with the backlog, actually invest in substantially increasing the number of staff dealing with immigration. And improve the process so that it's cheaper and quicker. Why does it take so blooming long to process applications? Doing this would benefit both the individual people and the state and in the long term would reduce the cost.

Again I wouldn't disagree with the desirability of doing that, but that's not going to do anything to cut immigration levels. And, if you're talking about asylum seekers (rather than general visa applications), I'm skeptical that doing that is a very quick fix, since assessing and processing applications fairly is complex, and you can't just magic up trained staff overnight.

At the same time, the punishments for employing illegal or undocumented workers should be increased substantially. If there is no profit in hiring illegal or undocumented workers, companies and individuals will be far less inclined to attract or hire illegal or undocumented workers. Plus the reduction of off the books / cash in hand arrangements would benefit the inland revenue.

Agree in principle, but I suspect the issue is detection rather than punishment. If you're a business employing illegal workers, then both you and the workers have a mutual incentive to avoid detection, so no-one's going to make it easy for the Home Office to discover you. That means that in order to improve detection rates, you have to carry out many more intrusive inspections of businesses - which itself is not a popular thing (Does probably need to be done though).

The problem is that we, as a country are not providing enough new infrastructure. The NHS and the schools (and other infrastructure) are in a poor state due to underinvestment, not due to immigration.

Well yes, we're not building enough infrastructure. But it's undeniable that any increase in the population increases the rate at which we need to build infrastructure just to keep still, thereby exacerbating the problem. It's not realistic not to acknowledge the role that immigration plays in that.
 

ainsworth74

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Sounds like a perfect example of one of my big problems with Brexit: more bureaucracy and more red tape.
Nah that can't be possible those nice gentlemen, Mr Farage, Mr Johnson and Mr Rees-Mogg, told us that Brexit would reduce the amount of red tape involved in daily life and make life easier for business!
It's analogous to that rate of catching/prosecuting people who commit crimes is appallingly low. But I bet you wouldn't argue on that basis that we should disband the police, and stop 'wasting' money on crime prevention, so we can spend the money on infrastructure instead!
It, of course, might help if the Conversative administration of 2010 to present hadn't starved the criminal justice system of funding meaning that the CPS cannot cope with the demands on their service, that courts have been closed and those that are open don't sit as often as they can, that the police cannot investigate crimes in a timely fashion because the various services they rely on have been trimmed back so the wait to get things processed has grown whilst the cuts in legal aid mean that more people self-represent and clog the courts up even further as they don't know what they're doing.
It's not realistic not to acknowledge the role that immigration plays in that.
I would tend to agree but I also think it's disingenuous to pretend that ending Freedom of Movement is some unalloyed benefit when the rate of immigration has, if anything, increased since Brexit.
Again I wouldn't disagree with the desirability of doing that, but that's not going to do anything to cut immigration levels.
You appreciate, I hope, that the the Government could cut immigration to somewhere around 50,000 per year tomorrow if it wished? It simply has to stop issuing visas. It won't, of course, because that would destroy higher education, and collapse the social care sector and the NHS.

I think we should have a discussion about what level of immigration is desirable or sustainable (I'm not sure that the current level is sustainable in point of fact) but the present approach is a nonsense and penalises and punishes some of the most vulnerable people in the world, makes us look disreputable on the international stage and doesn't actually do anything to reduce the overall levels of migration because the majority of immigrants come with a visa that the Government gave them at the same time that it tells us that its working tirelessly to reduce immigration!
 

Annetts key

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And I think it's blindingly obvious that net migration levels have been well above any reasonable, sustainable, level for at least about 15 years.
You say that the net migration levels have been unsustainable for the last 15 years. However, if it's being going on for 15 years as you say, it could be argued that the level is sustainable... Especially as unemployment levels have fallen and are still low. Further, it means that if the government actually wanted to reduce net migration, why have they not done so given that now they have full control of legal immigration?

This is similar to the immigration issue in the U.S.A. which has being going on for more than 40 years. But where no political party (including under the Trump administration) has made much impact (a wall doesn't stop people crossing at the border crossings which is where most enter the U.S.A.).

I know you won't agree. So we will have to agree to disagree.

But yes, we are straying off topic. The ONS has this page on migration for those who want to read through it. I'm not quoting it, as it's rather long and I'm using a phone. But for those interested in the subject, the figures and graphs do make interesting reading.
 
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dosxuk

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1,765
no party has yet come up with a decent answer for how to get immigration down
There's only one way to stop people wanting to come to a country - be a worse place to live than where they currently are.

If you want a comfortable standard of living, access to free healthcare, low unemployment and be safe in your home, you are simply going to have to accept that there a millions of people living in places where they don't take that for granted, and some of those are going to want to travel here.

Just think to yourself if things were flipped, how bad things would have to be in blighty for you to want to pay thousands of pounds to obvious criminals, to get access to an overcrowded dingy and set sail across the English Channel in the middle of winter just to escape.
 

sor

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I very much doubt that most of the electorate would think it irrelevant if the Government decided (without a referendum) to pass a bill to reverse what had previously within living memory been decided by a referendum.
Doesn't seem to have been much uproar over the various tweaks to our elections even though we've established a precedent that they should be approved by direct public vote, such as the AV ref in 2011.

One of those changes - moving all mayoral/PCC elections to FPTP - wasn't even in the Tory manifesto. In some cases the proposals to create the Mayors included the voting system to be used to elect them, and that went to a referendum
 

najaB

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[Performative action on immigration] doesn't actually do anything to reduce the overall levels of migration because the majority of immigrants come with a visa that the Government gave them at the same time that it tells us that its working tirelessly to reduce immigration!
This, exactly!
There's only one way to stop people wanting to come to a country - be a worse place to live than where they currently are.
Of course, the other way to achieve the same effect is helping them make where they are less bad.
 

sor

Member
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15 Nov 2013
Messages
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To re-enter the EU we would have to accept the Euro and Schengen - not clear whether any government would sign up to those conditions.
AIUI our opt outs were written into the treaties. If we ever rejoined it certainly creates an opportunity for lots of billable hours for international lawyers to argue the toss as to whether they'd continue to apply

(personally I'd still be against the idea of joining the Euro, though after actually doing a bit of interrailing and seeing the difference between Schengen vs the queues at StP and Brussels Midi - I'd be all for dismantling the CTA)
 

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