Bridge strike at Plymouth (30/08)

[Essexman]

Expecting the railway to be fully back to normal Friday/Saturday

I hope so. I'm going down to Devon on Sunday for a couple of days walking on Dartmoor from Ivybridge, which has virtually no service at the moment.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The worrying thing is, with the recruitment crisis in the haulage industry we're more likely to see standards fall than we are to see them rise.

 

[zwk500]

This figure of £1bn is typical of how the cost of any railway project gets inflated. Even building a bare platform for a new/ reopened station gets quoted in seven figures these days, and I get that feeling that someone is taking the mickey.

How much should a new railway cost? Don't forget to account for legal processes to compulsory purchase property and a public inquiry, as well as the costs to design the track to meet a modern 75mph railway with 23m long carriages.

And this issue of trains having to reverse is overplayed. What London or Bristol to Penzance trains don't stop at Exeter and Plymouth anyway? All passenger trains these days have a cab at each end. Nobody is suggesting that the line through Newton Abbot should be closed, and it would remain available for Plymouth and Penzance trains. Surely, Plymouth is the biggest city in the country to have only one railway route from the rest of the country?

The suggestion of reversal is for when the line via Newton Abbot is blocked. A train calling and departing in the same direction takes 3 minutes, with the platform available again after 3 minutes. So Each platform can handle 10 tph, all other things being equal. A train reversing needs time for the driver to shut down the cab and walk to the other end, which the Rules require 8 minutes for an 80x if the same driver, with the platform being available to traffic from the opposite direction in 4 minutes. This means each platform can handle 5tph, all reversing. You can bring the reversal allowance down to 5 minutes if you have two driver, which gets you 6tph per platform a the cost of more drivers being booked on. So reversals bring capacity down to approx 50-60% of the through running.

Obviously in the real world many trains already do terminate at Plymouth and Exeter, and there's local trains that would still be running and trains at one or the other station would be sent through to Newton Abbot (or however far they could get) so the actual hit on capacity wouldn't be anwyhere near as severe. But it'll still be felt, and badly.

 

[Robertj21a]

First reaction to the first of those is: if a vehicle involved in such an incident is found to be using an suitable sat nav - then immediate grounding for inspection of all other vehicles in fleet. Any others found then company immediately has its licence to operate suspended - all involved in chain of command face criminal conviction and ban for life from operating in a similar function.

Way OTT.

Is it a legal requirement to have a SatNav fitted ?

 

[Dai Corner]

Way OTT.

Is it a legal requirement to have a SatNav fitted ?

I don't know. But it should be an offence to have an incorrect vehicle height programmed into one.

 

[norbitonflyer]

All passenger trains these days have a cab at each end. Surely, Plymouth is the biggest city in the country to have only one railway route from the rest of the country?

Portsmouth?

The overnight sleepers are still conventionally loco-hauled. Depending on stock, I would like to think that a Mark 3 or Mark 5 DVT could be used if reversal was a regular thing, but I'm probably wrong.

 

[The exile]

I don't know. But it should be an offence to have an incorrect vehicle height programmed into one.

Or to be using one not designed for a long/ high/ heavy / wide vehicle. This thread is about bridge strikes but there are plenty of width / length / weight related incidents as well. Sending a lorry out with a guidance system that is liable to cause accidents ( or at the very least major disruption) is WRONG. As others have pointed out, by the time the vehicle reaches the critical point, it’s often too late

 

[hwl]

I don't know. But it should be an offence to have an incorrect vehicle height programmed into one.

A few years back there there was sudden increase in vehicle hitting the infamous A205 Thurlow Park road bridge in Tulse Hill (has the held the #1 annual bridge strike spot a few times). A huge number were new spec refrigerated Tesco and Sainsburys lorry that were ~6" taller than the old ones (the majority of the fleet) and the approved routes hadn't been updated for the new vehicles.

 

[E759]

Unlikely

Remember RAIB are there to investigate safety incidents and report on safety learning for the industry. Not sure there is any safety learning the railway can take away from this - it’s a highways matter.

The class investigations have been more when there’s an engrained poor safety behaviour - for example systemic issues with how user worked crossings are handled.



No, the train was asked to examine the line in accordance with the rule book. Train found the line to be disturbed hence stopping and eventually being withdrawn to Exeter. At no point was the location of the bridge in doubt.

The Railways (Accident Investigation and Reporting) Regulations 2005, Schedule 3, Paragraph 3:

The failure of a structure on railway property, including a tunnel, bridge, viaduct, culvert, railway cutting, embankment, station, signal or fixed electrical equipment which under slightly different circumstances may have led to a serious accident or which otherwise reduces the level of railway safety.

This bridge strike with damaged formation seems RAIB in scope to me.

 

[GB]

There is a difference between a structural failure for the purposes of an RAIB investigation and damage to a structure resulting from a road traffic accident. The RAIB were notified early on and declared they would not be attending and did not request further information.

 

[irish_rail]

Surely, Plymouth is the biggest city in the country to have only one railway route from the rest of the country?

Plymouth will always be seen as a backwater by politicians, it always has and always will. For some reason the city lacks ambition and is quite happy to bumble along in the shadow of Exeter, despite being considerably larger.
Politicians here really should be making more of a song and dance over the lack of railroutes radiating from the city, and to be fair to one of the cities MPs , Luke Pollard, he is pretty good. The other , Mr Mercer is rather less good , and if the military is not directly involved he doesn't want to know.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Plymouth will always be seen as a backwater by politicians, it always has and always will. For some reason the city lacks ambition and is quite happy to bumble along in the shadow of Exeter, despite being considerably larger.
Politicians here really should be making more of a song and dance over the lack of railroutes radiating from the city, and to be fair to one of the cities MPs , Luke Pollard, he is pretty good. The other , Mr Mercer is rather less good , and if the military is not directly involved he doesn't want to know.

Thats very unfair on Mr Mercer. He’s also very interested in making money

 

[Davester50]

There is a YouTube channel dedicated to an 11 foot 8 bridge in America. It is regularly struck by lorries, as captured on CCTV cameras.

I've just seen that channel, and there's a metal bar before the bridge.
Any reason we don't do similar for the places that routinely are struck?

 

[stuu]

Surely, Plymouth is the biggest city in the country to have only one railway route from the rest of the country?

Most of South Wales would be cut off if anything happened west of Newport. The central Wales line exists of course, but it's not remotely useful as a diversion route

 

[zwk500]

I've just seen that channel, and there's a metal bar before the bridge.
Any reason we don't do similar for the places that routinely are struck?

We do, at many, many bridges.

 

[irish_rail]

Thats very unfair on Mr Mercer. He’s also very interested in making money

And enhancing "brand mercer". Makes me laugh when we used to hear him touted as a future PM!!!

 

[PHILIPE]

Most of South Wales would be cut off if anything happened west of Newport. The central Wales line exists of course, but it's not remotely useful as a diversion route

It was once on 2007 when a major signalling project at Port Talbot over ran by 4 days. The problem was units trapped requiring fuel and maintenance. The Heart of Wales saw multiple combinations of 150s, 153s, and 158s (the latter locked out of use and airbags deflated) with two each day worked by 175s.

 

[Robertj21a]

Or to be using one not designed for a long/ high/ heavy / wide vehicle. This thread is about bridge strikes but there are plenty of width / length / weight related incidents as well. Sending a lorry out with a guidance system that is liable to cause accidents ( or at the very least major disruption) is WRONG. As others have pointed out, by the time the vehicle reaches the critical point, it’s often too late

As I've already asked, is it a legal requirement for a truck to have a Satnav fitted ?
If it's not required by law then you can't start penalising anybody!.

 

[GLC]

This figure of £1bn is typical of how the cost of any railway project gets inflated. Even building a bare platform for a new/ reopened station gets quoted in seven figures these days, and I get that feeling that someone is taking the mickey.

@Bald Rick frequently mentions that modern railways cost between £20-30 million a mile to build. Using those figures, and ball parking the old route distance at 25 miles, that puts you at half a billion straight out the box. And that price figure is for a basic railway. Looking at the route on the satellite view, there are areas which have been built on, which would push costs up even more.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

First reaction to the first of those is: if a vehicle involved in such an incident is found to be using an suitable sat nav - then immediate grounding for inspection of all other vehicles in fleet. Any others found then company immediately has its licence to operate suspended - all involved in chain of command face criminal conviction and ban for life from operating in a similar function.

Very harsh. We all make mistakes. Worst the driver will get us a careless driving conviction which is 6 points and a fine.

It’s not a legal requirement to have a sat-nav fitted

 

[paul1609]

Plymouth will always be seen as a backwater by politicians, it always has and always will. For some reason the city lacks ambition and is quite happy to bumble along in the shadow of Exeter, despite being considerably larger.
Politicians here really should be making more of a song and dance over the lack of railroutes radiating from the city, and to be fair to one of the cities MPs , Luke Pollard, he is pretty good. The other , Mr Mercer is rather less good , and if the military is not directly involved he doesn't want to know.

Having lived in Plymouth for sometime, I think that the issue is that the insular nature of the place leads the locals to believe that it's more important than it actually is, ranked by population its the 30th largest UK conurbation alongside the likes of Luton and Southend on Sea.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Having lived in Plymouth for sometime, I think that the issue is that the insular nature of the place leads the locals to believe that it's more important than it actually is, ranked by population its the 30th largest UK conurbation alongside the likes of Luton and Southend on Sea.

That seems to be a thing with rural places in general: the nearest town of any size is viewed as both a metropolis and a den of vice and iniquity... for example the people in Wellington (Somerset) who would visit Taunton for Christmas shopping annually, and regarded driving to Yeovil for a football match as complete insanity!

 

[Haywain]

Having lived in Plymouth for sometime, I think that the issue is that the insular nature of the place leads the locals to believe that it's more important than it actually is, ranked by population its the 30th largest UK conurbation alongside the likes of Luton and Southend on Sea.

The difference is that importance of Luton and Southend, only around 30 miles from London is rather different to Plymouth which is very much of major regional importance.

 

[SuspectUsual]

The difference is that importance of Luton and Southend, only around 30 miles from London is rather different to Plymouth which is very much of major regional importance.

Sphere of influence! One of the few bits of geography A level I can remember

 

[nanstallon]

Portsmouth?

The overnight sleepers are still conventionally loco-hauled. Depending on stock, I would like to think that a Mark 3 or Mark 5 DVT could be used if reversal was a regular thing, but I'm probably wrong.

You can get to Portsmouth by a multitude of routes, although I suppose that a breach of the track north of the island would isolate the city, so (assuming Portsmouth is bigger than Plymouth) you are correct. However, Cosham and Havant are much closer for bus connections to Portsmouth than Exeter is to Plymouth.

 

[MotCO]

Sphere of influence! One of the few bits of geography A level I can remember

And ox-bow lakes! (Apols - completely OT )

 

[nanstallon]

@Bald Rick frequently mentions that modern railways cost between £20-30 million a mile to build. Using those figures, and ball parking the old route distance at 25 miles, that puts you at half a billion straight out the box. And that price figure is for a basic railway. Looking at the route on the satellite view, there are areas which have been built on, which would push costs up even more.

But why does it cost so much?

As an example of how Network Rail keep inflating costs, in May 2014, Marsh Barton new station (Exeter) (two platforms to cope with six coach trains, plus waiting shelters, footbridge with ramp, ticket machines and small car parks) was expected to cost £4.3 million, during public consultation, but by 2015 the cost had risen to £10.42m, according to business cases published by the Heart of South West Local Enterprise Partnership. In a statement in 2018, Devon County Council, which has helped develop the schemes, said it would cost £13m, a threefold increase on the 2014 estimate. The station is now actually getting built, and is now expected to cost £16 million, with each platform measuring 407 feet (124 m) in order to accommodate 5-car trains.

Pathetic; no wonder so little ever gets done.

 

[fairysdad]

The overnight sleepers are still conventionally loco-hauled. Depending on stock, I would like to think that a Mark 3 or Mark 5 DVT could be used if reversal was a regular thing, but I'm probably wrong.

At the risk of pushing this thread into proper Crayonista territory, would a solution to this (probably uncommon) situation be a loco based at Plymouth that could be attached to the up service in the evening to take the sleeper up 'round Dartmoor, detach at Exeter, and reattached to the down service in the morning for the return trip?

 

[tiptoptaff]

At the risk of pushing this thread into proper Crayonista territory, would a solution to this (probably uncommon) situation be a loco based at Plymouth that could be attached to the up service in the evening to take the sleeper up 'round Dartmoor, detach at Exeter, and reattached to the down service in the morning for the return trip?

In theory, you could achieve this by top and tailing from Penzance to Exeter on the Up Sleeper, cutting one off, and attaching it back on to the Down Sleeper and top and tailing back to Penzance

That's how they work the portion London to Reading at the moment

 

[Davester50]

We do, at many, many bridges.

Can't say I've seen any here, particularly on the usual ones struck, but that's reassuring to hear. I'd have thought this would be worthy of further roll out.
Is there a criteria for fitting, as in three strikes and you're out we'll put up a beam?