British Transport Police - Rail Enthusiasts

[RailwayWatch]

I am a Sergeant with the British Transport Police; I would be interested in the thoughts and opinions of forum members on this topic and would welcome responses as it would be very helpful at this stage.

The British Transport Police is looking to pilot a new scheme on the rail network called Railway Watch based around the North London Hub stations and covering the network out from London.

This scheme is intended to be similar to those already running at the major UK Airports and centres on Rail Enthusiasts becoming members of the scheme and helping to combat terrorism and crime on the rail network by raising awareness and reporting suspicious activity. Members would have a distinctive ID card on a lanyard with the idea that this would show Station Staff and Police that the holder was a member of the scheme while on the railway.

I recognise that the Rail Enthusiast community is well placed to notice such activity and as a group, understand the railway and are committed to its safe running. I see this scheme as a unique opportunity for Rail Enthusiasts to become part of the wider Rail family and to be recognised as the valuable resource they are when taking part in their lawful hobby.

Do you see this as a good idea and would you want to become a member?

I would appreciate your views on this scheme and would be pleased to answer any questions you have about Railway Watch, I am currently on shift and will aim to answer all posts at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Aictos]

I think it is a great idea and certainly worth backing, well done BTP.

 

[anthony263]

I too think this is a good idea, especially if its rolled out across the uk

 

[Christopher125]

Good idea - if you want exposure for this scheme, get in touch with the specialist press; RAIL Magazine, The Railway Magazine, Modern Railways etc whose editors will be happy to hear from you.

 

[LE Greys]

I agree, a very good idea. Many of us have occasionally had trouble taking pictures at stations "because of the risk of terrorism", so a campaign where enthusiasts can contribute to the fight against terrorism would be an excellent idea. Might I suggest a poster campaign to raise awareness. I also like the idea of a card that people can carry to show to people, with the BTP telephone number on it in case they see anything. It also proves to suspicious staff that they are there for good purposes rather than bad.

 

[DVT82305]

I think it's a brilliant idea and I would be enjoying in the group

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

I believe its a good idea, but extending it from JUST London would be a must. London seems to be one of those places where anything starts, everything stays. Perhaps doing major hub stations out from London, for example (ECML) York, Newcastle, Edinburgh Waverley, Glasgow Central etc.

It sounds like a good idea, but a more spread-out scheme will be more effective.

 

[alexdodds]

Make this thread a sticky mods

 

[Class172]

It's an excellent idea but of no use to me as it's in London

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My local station of Manchester Airport sees a tremendous input/output of airline passengers, but there are already numbers of TPE and G4S staff plus noticeable amounts of other security bodies. I feel we would be a hinderence here.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is a very sensible idea, as I understand the aviation-related scheme has been fairly successful.

You might get a lot more people suitable for the Railway Watch scheme here: http://forum.themessroom.co.uk/ The forum demographic there is much more spotter-oriented, the kind that like to hang around on stations taking pics.

 

[OxtedL]

Ahem... http://www.railwayforum.net/showthread.php?t=9667

 

[Tin Rocket]

I doubt wether a plastic ID card around your neck would prevent enthusiasts still being treated with suspsicion and contempt by the majority of station staff,security personnel or BTP alike.

 

[asylumxl]

I'd consider joining but I'd rather have more details first.

I have some concerns about it, particularly involving the racial profiling and stereotyping of what a terrorist looks like. People all too quickly seem to forget the IRA, and that you don't have to be Muslim to be a terrorist. Infact the people comitting these acts are not considered Muslim by the Islamic community, yet people still wish to tarnish them.

 

[Aictos]

I believe its a good idea, but extending it from JUST London would be a must. London seems to be one of those places where anything starts, everything stays. Perhaps doing major hub stations out from London, for example (ECML) York, Newcastle, Edinburgh Waverley, Glasgow Central etc.

It sounds like a good idea, but a more spread-out scheme will be more effective.

On the East Coast alone:

Kings Cross
Peterborough
Doncaster
Leeds
York
Newcastle
Edinburgh
Glasgow Central

should all be considered as prime locations which see gatherings of rail enthusiasts nearly all day and all have a BTP presence available in the form of a office nearby.

 

[WestCoast]

On the East Coast alone:

Kings Cross
Peterborough
Doncaster
Leeds
York
Newcastle
Edinburgh
Glasgow Central

And on the West Coast:

Euston
Milton Keynes Central
Rugby
Birmingham New Street
Crewe
Manchester Piccadilly
Liverpool Lime Street
Preston
Carlisle

It has to be a country wide policy to maximise its effectiveness.

 

[EM2]

As a staff member at one of the North London terminii, I'd be very interested in getting involved.

 

[bluenoxid]

I am a Sergeant with the British Transport Police; I would be interested in the thoughts and opinions of forum members on this topic and would welcome responses as it would be very helpful at this stage.

The British Transport Police is looking to pilot a new scheme on the rail network called Railway Watch based around the North London Hub stations and covering the network out from London.

This scheme is intended to be similar to those already running at the major UK Airports and centres on Rail Enthusiasts becoming members of the scheme and helping to combat terrorism and crime on the rail network by raising awareness and reporting suspicious activity. Members would have a distinctive ID card on a lanyard with the idea that this would show Station Staff and Police that the holder was a member of the scheme while on the railway.

I recognise that the Rail Enthusiast community is well placed to notice such activity and as a group, understand the railway and are committed to its safe running. I see this scheme as a unique opportunity for Rail Enthusiasts to become part of the wider Rail family and to be recognised as the valuable resource they are when taking part in their lawful hobby.

Do you see this as a good idea and would you want to become a member?

I would appreciate your views on this scheme and would be pleased to answer any questions you have about Railway Watch, I am currently on shift and will aim to answer all posts at the earliest opportunity.

Great Idea in practice, bad in reality. Creates a "you cannot take photos on this station because you do not have a lanyard" issue. In addition, you cannot really define what the threat is on a day by day basis to whoever is there. You also need to look at the persons background, their spotting patterns and what their previous behaviour has been because some people are ****s. The best thing to do is to accept that rail enthusiasts are there. The network is more diverse than 40 runway ends where a man with a missile is quite an obvious issue compared to a man with a rucksack in a busy crowd.

The best thing to do is to publish any issues and things to look for to the general public and and keep us informed. Also publish and push the BTP phone number on to rail enthusiasts. Surprisingly, it is never really pushed on platform ends where rail enthusiasts are likely to be.

Consider this very closely before implementing it or it might end up biting you on the behind. Data protection is a major issue in my eyes.

 

[Neilandrewhall]

I'd be intestered to get involved with this aswell

 

[class156]

I would definitely support this if it were to be implemented outside of London.

 

[Greenback]

It dioes appear to be a good idea in theory, but I also have concerns about such a scheme in practice.

One concern is the lanyard and ID badge. Presumably there would be some sort of background check on anyone who applied to join? How much unofficial status would such ID give the member in the eyes of the uninitiated general public? Conversely, how would staff feel about those with a lanyard possibly believing they have some sort of official railway authority?

To be honest, I consider that there is a danger that it could be used to prevent people from taking photographs or lingering at stations.

I also wonder how much the scheme would cost, who would pay for it and what is the point? I am certain that the majority of regular travellers, whether they are rail enthusiasts or not, will happily report any suspicious behaviour that they see while waiting for a train.

Sorry to be negative, but this really has the potnetial to become a rather large can of worms. In practice, it may cause more trouble than it solves.

 

[snowhill]

This sounds very similar to the scheme which has proven popular and effective in the United States and I would certainly co-operate. As it is the BTP phone number is prominent in my mobile's directory and I wouldn't hesitate to use it for vanderlism let alone terrorism.

My only concern is the London bias. Whilst I appreciate that is where the perceived threat is greatest but there are many other places which I would have thought tempting targets for terrorists and it seems very short-sighted not to consider this as a National Scheme from the outset.

I am not sure what qualifications are required in the US. I was a "rail enthusiast" at 10 and visited London stations on my own, from Birmingham, in 1945/6 at the age of 13. I certainly wasn't suitable material then but now, doing the same at 79, think I could be.

Dave Hollick

 

[Greenback]

If introduced, it should definitely be a national scheme. Additional eyes and ears on the rail netowrk would be useful all over the UK, but I would like to see more details on the proposals before I commit to supporting it.

Personally I think it would be more effective in tackling anti social behaviour than terrorism. But I suspect it is more politically expedient to justify it on the grounds of terrorism.

 

[trentside]

I'd certainly be interested to see how any trail progresses. Were the scheme to be extended beyond London, then I'd definitely be interested in signing up. I'm always keen to see any ideas which can promote a better relationship between enthusiasts, railway staff and the BTP. Let's hope this works along those lines.

 

[CarterUSM]

It dioes appear to be a good idea in theory, but I also have concerns about such a scheme in practice.

One concern is the lanyard and ID badge. Presumably there would be some sort of background check on anyone who applied to join? How much unofficial status would such ID give the member in the eyes of the uninitiated general public? Conversely, how would staff feel about those with a lanyard possibly believing they have some sort of official railway authority?

To be honest, I consider that there is a danger that it could be used to prevent people from taking photographs or lingering at stations.

I also wonder how much the scheme would cost, who would pay for it and what is the point? I am certain that the majority of regular travellers, whether they are rail enthusiasts or not, will happily report any suspicious behaviour that they see while waiting for a train.

Sorry to be negative, but this really has the potnetial to become a rather large can of worms. In practice, it may cause more trouble than it solves.

I'm with you Greenback. Maybe i'm wrong, but terrorism is EVERYONES concern, and I like to think people would, and do, report suspicious behaviour anyway, it is amazing what you notice is slightly out of place or wrong whilst going through the daily grind. I can't help feeling this is perhaps a poor substitute to actually employing more plods, though apologies if I have the wrong end of the stick. I'm also not sure of what to make of people who seem all to keen to get a 'lanyard' and 'i.d'. Hold me back......

 

[SouthEastern-465]

It dioes appear to be a good idea in theory, but I also have concerns about such a scheme in practice.

One concern is the lanyard and ID badge. Presumably there would be some sort of background check on anyone who applied to join? How much unofficial status would such ID give the member in the eyes of the uninitiated general public? Conversely, how would staff feel about those with a lanyard possibly believing they have some sort of official railway authority?

To be honest, I consider that there is a danger that it could be used to prevent people from taking photographs or lingering at stations.

I also wonder how much the scheme would cost, who would pay for it and what is the point? I am certain that the majority of regular travellers, whether they are rail enthusiasts or not, will happily report any suspicious behaviour that they see while waiting for a train.

Sorry to be negative, but this really has the potnetial to become a rather large can of worms. In practice, it may cause more trouble than it solves.

I agree 100%.

My concern is that some enthusiasts will treat this as if there staff, and think because they've got these IDs it gives them certain rights. I'm only going by what I've experienced with enthusiasts without these cards, as there are some who think because there an enthusiast they know more than anyone... (Very very small minority)

 

[Greenback]

I'm with you Greenback. Maybe i'm wrong, but terrorism is EVERYONES concern, and I like to think people would, and do, report suspicious behaviour anyway, it is amazing what you notice is slightly out of place or wrong whilst going through the daily grind. I can't help feeling this is perhaps a poor substitute to actually employing more plods, though apologies if I have the wrong end of the stick. I'm also not sure of what to make of people who seem all to keen to get a 'lanyard' and 'i.d'. Hold me back......

My feeleing is that there are people who will try to use their ID and lanyard as proof that they are ins ome way volunteer staff, and entitled to all sorts of railway privileges as a result.

Who knows, they may even try and move shopping trolleys away from the line!

I agree 100%.

My concern is that some enthusiasts will treat this as if there staff, and think because they've got these IDs it gives them certain rights. I'm only going by what I've experienced with enthusiasts without these cards, as there are some who think because there an enthusiast they know more than anyone... (Very very small minority)

Precisely, they may be a small minority but they cause problems far in excess of their numbers! The last thing such people need is a visible mark of their knowledge/status!

 

[Matt Taylor]

The network is more diverse than 40 runway ends where a man with a missile is quite an obvious issue compared to a man with a rucksack in a busy crowd.

I think you are taking a very simplistic view if you honestly think that guys with SAMs at runway ends are the main threats. The threat to aviation security is as diverse as the threat to railway security. In 2004 nearly 200 people died in Madrid due to suicide bombers, in 1992 the IRA caused all manner of disruption with strategic (but not lethal) attacks on UK railway infrastructure, both attacks were due to terrorism but they were opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of actual terror.

I would support any initiative that helps improve security but I hope such a scheme would not be seen as the same kind of token gesture we have seen in the aviation field. I live right next to Heathrow and visit for photography two or three times a month but in the last ten years have only been asked about this scheme once and such a scheme does not prevent photographers being stopped by 'jobsworths' who think they have authority where they actually have none. I see the same problems happening with a railway version.

The most frustrating thing about railway photography etc is the lack of consistency, last week I was told by a staff member at Clapham Junction that photography was banned 'by management', a situation that was made even more ridiculous when, about half an hour later, that same staff member was giving me the tip to close my doors and then give my driver the bells as I worked my train through the station!

From my point of view as an aviation photographer, railway photographer and member of train crew I would be more than happy to help out with any scheme that is mutually beneficial to enthusiasts, staff and the BTP, but I am just a little cynical given my experience of the aviation equivalent.

 

[E&W Lucas]

One concern is the lanyard and ID badge. Presumably there would be some sort of background check on anyone who applied to join? How much unofficial status would such ID give the member in the eyes of the uninitiated general public? Conversely, how would staff feel about those with a lanyard possibly believing they have some sort of official railway authority?

Exactly.

The last thing you want is untrained enthusiasts interfering, and too many have a tendency to do that as it is.

It's an interesting idea in theory, but in practice I'm not so sure. The last thing you want to do is give any sort of recognition to the socially inadequate kids, who spend their time making the "toilet chain" gesture at passing trains....

 

[ralphchadkirk]

How long will it be before some trainspotter tries to arrest someone whom they think is a terrorist with the ID card?

However, I think it could work, if carefully implemented. I also think it's great that the BTP are eager to engage with the community.