Britrail passes

[InFoTan]

I live in Hong Kong, and when I come to the UK I usually purchase a Britrail pass. My view is that the price is a little high - but worth it for the convenience of being able to travel at any time and on any train.

We almost always travel on off-peak services, but obviously you could use it during the peak when Advance tickets are either unavailable or very expensive.

I noticed this discussion in The Guardian, where Britrail passes are described as a "scandal":

https://discussion.theguardian.com/comment-permalink/86905384

The real scandal of U.K. Trains is that EU residents can travel for a lot less than we can on our we rail system. If you have an address outside the UK you can get Britrail passes that allow for unlimited first class travel for a month for as little as £550. That's for travel as much as you like, first class, anywhere in England. That is less than the cost of a weekly season ticket from Newark to London. But you can't buy that ticket if you live in the U.K.​

Any thoughts?

 

[The Ham]

I think that most tourists wouldn't be aiming to get the best value out of it (I.e. using it as much as a long distance commuter would). As such for those that do there will be those that don't, so it probably balances out overall.

If the question is, should there be a similar pass available to UK residents, then I think not. However, having a business pass paid by subscription which allows a number staff free rail travel could be very well subscribed. The pricing could be based on the number of staff that would be able to use it (I.e. total number of staff) and the number of days of staff travel in any given month (this is counted as each member of staff that travels on any given day as being one)

Which would likely be based on £x per total staff (falling as you go up) and £y per assumed travel days. The terms would say that only such travel that was entitled to be claimed as a business expense could be used (I.e. not from home to main place of work).

Having a flat amount to pay without having to deal with individual ticket claims (and a reduction in milage claims as the business would much rather people used rail as these would be additional costs) could make it fairly attractive to business. Whilst having a (near) guaranteed income for the rail industry would make it attractive to them.

It could ask be done with smart cards with staff needing to activate their card to use it on any given day, potentially with an option for top up payments if the total number of travel days goes over those paid for (averaged over a two month period).

 

[matt_world2004]

Tfl Staff get 20% discount on britrail passes through visit britain yet cannot use them or buy them

 

[bb21]

Tfl Staff get 20% discount on britrail passes through visit britain yet cannot use them or buy them

Intended for use by family and friends (if applicable) I suppose.

If the question is, should there be a similar pass available to UK residents, then I think not. However, having a business pass paid by subscription which allows a number staff free rail travel could be very well subscribed. The pricing could be based on the number of staff that would be able to use it (I.e. total number of staff) and the number of days of staff travel in any given month (this is counted as each member of staff that travels on any given day as being one)

Which would likely be based on £x per total staff (falling as you go up) and £y per assumed travel days. The terms would say that only such travel that was entitled to be claimed as a business expense could be used (I.e. not from home to main place of work).

Having a flat amount to pay without having to deal with individual ticket claims (and a reduction in milage claims as the business would much rather people used rail as these would be additional costs) could make it fairly attractive to business. Whilst having a (near) guaranteed income for the rail industry would make it attractive to them.

It could ask be done with smart cards with staff needing to activate their card to use it on any given day, potentially with an option for top up payments if the total number of travel days goes over those paid for (averaged over a two month period).

You mean an impersonal season ticket (bearer's pass)? That already exists although not sure whether all TOCs still offer them. Price on application to the relevant TOC. Historical arrangement is 1.5 x ordinary season ticket prices but may vary these days.

 

[anme]

I live in Hong Kong, and when I come to the UK I usually purchase a Britrail pass. My view is that the price is a little high - but worth it for the convenience of being able to travel at any time and on any train.

We almost always travel on off-peak services, but obviously you could use it during the peak when Advance tickets are either unavailable or very expensive.

I noticed this discussion in The Guardian, where Britrail passes are described as a "scandal":

https://discussion.theguardian.com/comment-permalink/86905384

The real scandal of U.K. Trains is that EU residents can travel for a lot less than we can on our we rail system. If you have an address outside the UK you can get Britrail passes that allow for unlimited first class travel for a month for as little as £550. That's for travel as much as you like, first class, anywhere in England. That is less than the cost of a weekly season ticket from Newark to London. But you can't buy that ticket if you live in the U.K.​

Any thoughts?

My thoughts? The amount of xenophobia in the UK today is shocking.

 

[najaB]

Any thoughts?

It's The Guardian, everything is a scandal if it can be bent to be about the EU.

 

[InFoTan]

I think that most tourists wouldn't be aiming to get the best value out of it (I.e. using it as much as a long distance commuter would). As such for those that do there will be those that don't, so it probably balances out overall.

Yes, I think you are correct - It's like the different types of customer at an all-you-can-eat buffet!

We used the pass to visit a few places that were about 2 hours from London, but without having decided in advance where to go on each day. I did try to calculate the approximate cost of buying other tickets, but in the end the convenience of the pass won out. I'm sure many others think the same way.

I wonder if they do any analysis of how the passes are used? From my observation, the staff just take a quick glance at the pass so I can't see how they could know!

 

[bb21]

It's not only about ticket revenue, it is also about trying to get the visitors to travel to different parts of the country and encouraging them to spend there.

The BritRail pass does exactly that, offering freedom to travel around without having to have a solid plan.

Visitors are also much more likely to travel at off-peak times, and only using the pass sparingly, so the pricing reflects that too.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes, I think you are correct - It's like the different types of customer at an all-you-can-eat buffet!

..

This exactly: the Britrail pass is targeting a specific, very different market segment. The TOCs are very aware that the chances of anyone living in Bucharest or Boston buying a Britrail pass to commute from York to Kings Cross for a week is virtually nil. Living in York and buying an all-line rover, however, for such a set of journeys would be a different matter.
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.......
.......
However, having a business pass paid by subscription which allows a number staff free rail travel could be very well subscribed. The pricing could be based on the number of staff that would be able to use it (I.e. total number of staff) and the number of days of staff travel in any given month (this is counted as each member of staff that travels on any given day as being one)

Which would likely be based on £x per total staff (falling as you go up) and £y per assumed travel days. The terms would say that only such travel that was entitled to be claimed as a business expense could be used (I.e. not from home to main place of work).

Having a flat amount to pay without having to deal with individual ticket claims (and a reduction in milage claims as the business would much rather people used rail as these would be additional costs) could make it fairly attractive to business. Whilst having a (near) guaranteed income for the rail industry would make it attractive to them.

It could ask be done with smart cards with staff needing to activate their card to use it on any given day, potentially with an option for top up payments if the total number of travel days goes over those paid for (averaged over a two month period).

I think what you are saying sounds an excellent idea - but a) I'm not quite clear what you are saying and b) I think it needs a thread all of its own.

 

[bnm]

It's The Guardian, everything is a scandal if it can be bent to be about the EU.

No. The quoted text is a reader comment, therefore that person's own view rather than that of The Guardian.

 

[najaB]

No. The quoted text is a reader comment, therefore that person's own view rather than that of The Guardian.

Indeed, sorry. I hadn't actually clicked the link.

 

[dutchflyer]

Very much the same situation exists in nearly all European countries (not just EU) for visiting foreigners, though the difference in the UK is indeed quite large. Look at Interrail and esp. Interrail 1 country (only available to people actually living in the participating countries in/around EURope).
I once visited Japan, or spoke with japanese, and they immediately told about what they also saw as ''fare discrimination'' for me using a JapanRail-Pass.
For some years there was a Scandinavian RailPass that worked out cheaper as a local Norwegian weekly, but covered 4 countries. After that discovery and publicity it was restricted to just 1 return to border for local people.
Thus in fact it has nothing to do with the EU as such-the scheme already existed long before the EU in its current form came and is not limited to those living in the EU. Britrail-as you have discovered, is also available to anyone living out of the UK-even Brits having done that for at least 6 monthes.

 

[robbeech]

Living in York and buying an all-line rover, however, for such a set of journeys would be a different matter.

Apart from the fairly strict time restrictions for alighting at King's Cross in the morning on an ALR.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's not only about ticket revenue, it is also about trying to get the visitors to travel to different parts of the country and encouraging them to spend there.

The BritRail pass does exactly that, offering freedom to travel around without having to have a solid plan.

Visitors are also much more likely to travel at off-peak times, and only using the pass sparingly, so the pricing reflects that too.

Very true.

Actually, if you're a tourist, the railways in Britain are a fine experience I'm sure. Britrail should be encouraged.

 

[neilmc]

My son lives and works in Oman as a British ex-pat. If he comes back to the UK on an extended break he would of course be entitled to purchase a Britrail pass.

Would this be challenged by train operators and is there some requirement to carry proof of overseas residence around with you? Obviously his passport is British!

 

[bb21]

It is best to carry some form of proof, so that if requested, the demand can be satisfied and him allowed on his merry way without any hassle, as in, making his own life easier.

Virgin Euston manual gateline was the only place I found consistently asked for some sort of proof. Other than that, very rarely ime.

 

[gray1404]

When I am abroad I carry no proof that I live in the UK. Again, VT at EUS making up their own rules.

 

[bb21]

When I used one of those passes, I had no intention of getting into stupid arguments and missing my train as a result. I therefore carry a small piece of evidence with me.

Whether they are making the rules up or not is hardly the point. Carrying a piece of evidence was effortless for me, so I had no reason to run those risks. It was a reasonable request to see proof of foreign residence in any case.

That remains my advice, where possible. Makes days out so much more enjoyable by doing little things right and taking considered approaches.

 

[InFoTan]

My son lives and works in Oman as a British ex-pat. If he comes back to the UK on an extended break he would of course be entitled to purchase a Britrail pass.

Would this be challenged by train operators and is there some requirement to carry proof of overseas residence around with you? Obviously his passport is British!

Don't worry - I also have a British passport and they have never questioned this when I show it with a Britrail ticket - I always carry my Hong Kong ID card, but I can't recall ever being asked to produce it.

The conditions are that you must not be a British resident, so I think they are entitled to ask for some evidence that you live elsewhere.

http://www.britrail.com/britrail-passes/eligibility-conditions-of-use/

Ah, Euston. That's the one place we nearly missed a train - because they were late announcing the platform and slow checking tickets at the gate.

 

[najaB]

Again, VT at EUS making up their own rules.

Not sure that they are. From the T&Cs:

Purchase Restrictions: Pass holders must be non-UK residents. BritRail and its representatives may ask at any time for proof of foreign residency and reserve the right to confiscate the ticket or pass in such circumstances. The BritRail ticket is non-transferable and must only be used by the person or persons specified on the ticket.

 

[221129]

When I am abroad I carry no proof that I live in the UK. Again, VT at EUS making up their own rules.

I think this part of the terms and Conditions cover it...

Pass holders must be non-UK residents. BritRail and its representatives may ask at any time for proof of foreign residency and reserve the right to confiscate the ticket or pass in such circumstances.

 

[Deerfold]

When I am abroad I carry no proof that I live in the UK. Again, VT at EUS making up their own rules.

You may want to make sure you check local laws when abroad - a lot of countries require you carry ID.

 

[Clip]

You may want to make sure you check local laws when abroad - a lot of countries require you carry ID.

Not only that im pretty sure that gray1404 doesnt speak the native tongue in every country they visit to raise suspicions about whether or not they are allowed the ticket they are travellign on, which is why ID is asked for - which is totally within the rules and not 'Made up' as claimed.

 

[bb21]

Not only that im pretty sure that gray1404 doesnt speak the native tongue in every country they visit to raise suspicions about whether or not they are allowed the ticket they are travellign on, which is why ID is asked for - which is totally within the rules and not 'Made up' as claimed.

Also used to check that the ticket is used by its rightful owner(s) sometimes, as one guard told me, rather than checking for foreign residence. As far as he was concerned, as long as it is used by the named person, a valid ticket is a valid ticket. He couldn't care less about other things.

 

[Clip]

Also used to check that the ticket is used by its rightful owner(s) sometimes, as one guard told me, rather than checking for foreign residence. As far as he was concerned, as long as it is used by the named person, a valid ticket is a valid ticket. He couldn't care less about other things.

Also another good scenario but ultimately its to know that they live abroad as its quite possible to have someone live abroad to buy you one to commute so this reduces that as best as possible.

 

[anme]

You may want to make sure you check local laws when abroad - a lot of countries require you carry ID.

A passport does not prove anything about where you live.

What does constitute proof for this purpose? Some countries have residency cards but many don't. Rules on driving licences vary and not everyone has one. Would something like a letter from a bank or a utility bill be sufficient?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also another good scenario but ultimately its to know that they live abroad as its quite possible to have someone live abroad to buy you one to commute so this reduces that as best as possible.

But isn't that covered by the ticket being named, and the guard checking ID? Otherwise how could someone buy a ticket for someone else? Assuming they don't share the same name, of course - unless the BritRail pass has a photo as InterRail passes used to (still do?)?

 

[DJ737]

Seems the rules have changed

from the Visit Britain website

All BritRail passes are only available to non-UK passport holders and if staying for 6 months or less. You may be asked to present proof of return travel from Britain at the time of train ticket inspections.

Bummer

 

[greatkingrat]

Just buy a Newry - Dundalk single! Or the cheapest Ryanair/Easyjet single you can find to some random destination.

 

[DJ737]

The problem isn't the onward travel as I would have a return from Melbourne, it's the UK passport that I have is no longer any good for buying Britrail passes.

 

[anme]

The problem isn't the onward travel as I would have a return from Melbourne, it's the UK passport that I have is no longer any good for buying Britrail passes.

Yeah this year has been a very very bad one for UK passport holders.