Buffer stops?

[Phoenix]

Hey there everyone.

Was just watching a program which involved Hydraulics and was thinking are buffer stops still a vital safety precaution these days or has there been new advances in train technology to have rendered the buffer stops useless.

An example is at Birmingham New Street with their Bay platform the recently new one I noticed when first built it had no buffer stops and then they decided to place a wooden one which well would hold back anything.

So I wonder if they can just skimp on such a major detail at one of Britain's busiest stations is it a case the old buffer stops aren't as effective as they seem?

 

[westcoaster]

there might be tpws over speed loops in the bay platform, these are normally set about 9mph, anything over this and the brakes will apply, also the speed into the bay maybe low speed so if there were to ba a collition there will still be damage but only a little.

hope that helps.

 

[Phoenix]

there might be tpws over speed loops in the bay platform, these are normally set about 9mph, anything over this and the brakes will apply, also the speed into the bay maybe low speed so if there were to ba a collition there will still be damage but only a little.

hope that helps.

I know these days with TPWS there is little chance of an over speed into a station but with elements such as wheel slip I wonder if a buffer smash is still likely ?
Although I have heard the majority of Buffers at Terminus station have hardly ever been needed as station end collisions are near to nothing.

 

[westcoaster]

there was one at waterloo recently involving a 450, not sure what happened there. in my opinion there should be some in all terminus stations, on the tl route there is a new new buffer stops at west hampstead tl near the signal box and all it is is about 10-15 sleepers pilled up with a stop board attatched.

 

[Phoenix]

there was one at waterloo recently involving a 450, not sure what happened there. in my opinion there should be some in all terminus stations, on the tl route there is a new new buffer stops at west hampstead tl near the signal box and all it is is about 10-15 sleepers pilled up with a stop board attached.

See this exactly makes me question the need of Buffer stops if they decide in the 21st century to make this DIY poor effort buffer stops.

 

[O L Leigh]

The old style fixed stops are designed to stop a train dead, but they never actually managed that. What tended to happen was that they would either be totally flattened or the train would ride up onto the stops.

All new buffer stop installations should be of the newer energy absorbing type. These are fitted to a length of run-off rail which they are designed to slide along to a certain extent if hit by a train. To achieve this they are not bolted directly to the rail but grip it on either side. Some, like those fitted to the bay platform line at Cheshunt, even have a coupler pocket to protect the coupler from damage should a train fail to stop in time.

O L Leigh

 

[Mojo]

All new buffer stop installations should be of the newer energy absorbing type. These are fitted to a length of run-off rail which they are designed to slide along to a certain extent if hit by a train. To achieve this they are not bolted directly to the rail but grip it on either side.

This sounds like the one on 4c at New Street, it's got the buffer itself a way back from the end of the rails, with a few red crossbars between the rails (on the part where a train should never be).

 

[Phoenix]

This sounds like the one on 4c at New Street, it's got the buffer itself a way back from the end of the rails, with a few red crossbars between the rails (on the part where a train should never be).

Exactly the one on 4C wasn't sure of the Platform number cheers for that.

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

Ah the buffer stop - another great British invention!

As O L Leigh mentioned, the old style buffer stops are largely in-effective at stoping a high speed collision into a station, and are only really useful for low-speed collisions. However, there are various examples of modern designs which are used all over Europe including France and Germany which consist of hydraulic systems which are heavily re-inforced.

 

[Phoenix]

Ah the buffer stop - another great British invention!

As O L Leigh mentioned, the old style buffer stops are largely in-effective at stoping a high speed collision into a station, and are only really useful for low-speed collisions. However, there are various examples of modern designs which are used all over Europe including France and Germany which consist of hydraulic systems which are heavily re-inforced.

So basically the old British style ones are pretty useless but the idea of Buffer stops still remains but is now a much perfected European design.
Well that clears the question up cheers for that everyone.

 

[O L Leigh]

The UK doesn't really need Euro-style reinforced hydraulic stops because TPWS is installed on all dead-end lines. This doesn't mean that a set of stops won't get smacked from time to time, but it does mean that any such collision is unlikely to be a high speed bump.

O L Leigh

 

[bluenoxid]

Last stop Largs

http://www.flickr.com/photos/98346459@N00/272898594/

The energy absorbing type are found all over Yorkshire, although the Interchange had those massive hydraulic things that stuck out on metal.

 

[Muttley]

Buffer stops are essential, even though they are a very last resort.

The big problem with relying on technology (TPWS) is that a)it must work; and b)the train must work. For example the 142 that hit at Lime Street wouldn`t have been stopped by TPWS, or the Underground`s power/brake off switches.

Thats one instance that has happened. How about a train skidding in in leaf-fall ? The TPWS dropping the emergency brake will have no effect (except to remove all control from the driver) if the wheels are already locked.

 

[theblackwatch]

The energy absorbing type are found all over Yorkshire, although the Interchange had those massive hydraulic things that stuck out on metal.

Mention of the stops at Interchange has reminded me of an incident back in the late 80s when I regularly used to go through to Leeds on Saturday mornings. I saw a HST go ECS from Neville Hill to Bradford Interchange to do a Bradford-KX service, but an hour or so later it was announced that the service was actually cancelled. A bit later, the HST returned from Bradford, with the rear power car now sporting two large holes in the lower front underskirt, presumably as a result of an altercation with the buffers at Interchange!

 

[metrocammel]

Buffer stops are essential, even though they are a very last resort.

The big problem with relying on technology (TPWS) is that a)it must work; and b)the train must work. For example the 142 that hit at Lime Street wouldn`t have been stopped by TPWS, or the Underground`s power/brake off switches.

Thats one instance that has happened. How about a train skidding in in leaf-fall ? The TPWS dropping the emergency brake will have no effect (except to remove all control from the driver) if the wheels are already locked.

Didn't the Pendolino that had an altercation with the buffers at Liverpool Line Street have TPWS fitted? I can't remember the actual cause of that, but I think it was something to do with the regenerative brakes. The scars on the buffers at Lime St are still visible as a result of that!

 

[driver9000]

As far as I remember the 390 that bumped the stops at Lime St was caused by a software fault in the original setup of the TMS system which failed to apply the brake when the driver moved the handle. Naturally this fault was fixed very quickly.

If the train is already below 10mph when it passes over the buffer-stop Over Speed Sensor then the brakes wont be applied automatically.

 

[Pumbaa]

Something to do with the way the different types of brakes were applied at low speeds, being sorted stupidly by the TMS as driver9000 says. The brakes were applied, just ridiculously slowly and lightly.

And yes, modifications were done within a week.

 

[Shinkensgone]

I know these days with TPWS there is little chance of an over speed into a station

TPWS can fail or be isolated Ergo a train can hit the Non/buffers....However the actual buffers in stations were never to prevent serious damage to a station or stop a train at high speed.

 

[Aictos]

I'm sure the energy absorbing type buffers are in use at Wrexham Central as well that I spotted in March on a trip there.

 

[ukrob]

Didn't the Pendolino that had an altercation with the buffers at Liverpool Line Street have TPWS fitted? I can't remember the actual cause of that, but I think it was something to do with the regenerative brakes. The scars on the buffers at Lime St are still visible as a result of that!

Lets not forget that it happened twice with two different units within a week!

They were on the 29th October and the 2nd November 2004.

There would of been much more damage caused to both train and concourse/platform had buffers not been there, not to mention passengers.

 

[northernbored]

There slowing installing the absorbing one a Kings X

 

[emoaconr]

I've only ever seen one hydraulic buffer stop... in Wrexham Central station built in 1998, which is then separated from the station building by a huge concrete block.

 

[Aictos]

I've only ever seen one hydraulic buffer stop... in Wrexham Central station built in 1998, which is then separated from the station building by a huge concrete block.

That's the one I'm on about, went up to Wrexham with a colleague to try the WSMR and got a trip up to Bidston as well thanks to a ATW guard.

Rather then just sit in the pub and booze away....

 

[Death]

I've only ever seen one hydraulic buffer stop... in Wrexham Central station built in 1998, which is then separated from the station building by a huge concrete block.

Conversely, London Waterloo has them on near enough every single platform with the sole exception of the former Eurostar terminal, which has the energy absorbing type installed.

Incidentally, I remember hearing back around Yule time that - Back in the golden ages of steam - Locomotive drivers were actually encouraged to bump the buffers whenever arriving into St. Pancras! hock:
Apparently, this practice was encouraged because the hotel above the station - Which used hydraulically operated lifts at the time - Used the pressure from trains hitting the buffers to provide the pressure necessary to run the lift system!

Although I'd take this claim as unsubstantiated without having concrete proof to hand, it would have been possible with the technology available at the time - With energy from train bumps being transferred to an accumulator before use in the lift system. Does anyone know if what I've heard is the actual truth, or is it simply a railway myth?