Buggies on trains

[jon0844]

What is the official policy for buggies on trains?

This morning, I got on a 313 to Moorgate at Finsbury Park, where people struggled to alight and board because of a huge buggy blocking the doorway.

After people had alighted, the owner of the buggy moved it back into the aisle (she was sitting down) meaning nobody boarding could walk down. Besides a few huffs and sighs, nobody said anything until a man got on that, it would later transpire, worked on behalf of TfL doing surveys.

He went off on one demanding that she moved it (he was about to do it himself), that she was blocking the aisle and that buggies should be folded. He then said, rather stupidly, that nobody should take kids out in the rush hour. I think at this point, his argument was lost - the people revolted.

It was funny to see how many people kept quiet, while others watched on smiling, but at this point a few women attacked him saying he was rude and pathetic. Another said how hard it was to travel with children.

He kept saying the buggy should be folded, but he'd lost the battle. Everyone who was going to say anything had already sided with the 'poor mum' and saw him as a grumpy old man that had a serious problem.

As it happens, these trains to have an area for wheelchairs and bicycles, but she was on the wrong carriage. I said to her that she might wish to go there to prevent any hassle in the future, but refrained from joining in on the argument (a first for me, perhaps!).

I was somewhat torn. Yes, she did look like she was struggling (she had another child with her too) and I don't think she deserved the attack, but at the same time - she was not exactly thinking of other passengers. Even after the fuss, she continued to block the exits so people struggled to get on and off (of course, they said nothing as they'd supported her).

I do see that this is quite a major safety issue. If you totally block off a quarter of the carriage with your bumper sized buggy (the type that looks like it has off-road capabilities) then I guess you can expect grief. The 'old man' had a point, but a lousy way of saying it.

What are the rules? I can certainly see the safety issue.

Is it unfair to demand that a mother folds up a buggy on a rush hour train? From what you would have seen this morning, it seems that everyone believed she had the right to leave it open - but I wonder what would happen if there had been more than one, or everyone started to do it.

 

[Greenback]

The story shows exactly what is wrong with this country these days. The mother showed a lack of consideration to all other passengers by blocking the doroway and the aisle. But the man should not have demanded anything either, and, once he had lost his rag he also, as you say, lost the argument. Didn't Britain used to be a very polite society once?

On a rail replacement bus yesterday, a couple had to collapse their buggy. I couldn't believe the amount of stuff they had to take from under it and pass on to the bus before collapsing it! It seems as though modern buggies are also a handy palce to store half the contents of your home!

TOC's publish comprehensive information on bicycles, why can't they do the same for buggies? They can be more of a menace than bikes, many cyclists show a lot more consideration to others than some mothers.

 

[harz99]

Is it unfair to demand that a mother folds up a buggy on a rush hour train? From what you would have seen this morning, it seems that everyone believed she had the right to leave it open - but I wonder what would happen if there had been more than one, or everyone started to do it.

There you have it - what if every parent did this? The same scenario has already been played out many times on buses with buggy using parents demanding to use the wheelchair spaces.

Now if the bus is licensed to carry one wheelchair in a designated space, it follows that only one buggy will also fit in the same space or floor area, but all to often buses are cluttered up with 2 or 3 such buggies in the entrance area to the detriment of all other users.

My own view is that when using public transport the conveyance for the child should always be capable of being easily folded by the user, and placed in the luggage rack. In other words not an "all terrain" sized buggy.

If you cannot do that don't use public transport. I know that sounds harsh, but it is what i had to abide by when my children were young, and is what also still applies in much of the world outside the madness of the EU.

As to regulations, the main line and many other trains I travel on often have announcements along the lines of "aisles must be kept clear of luggage" etc. so I guess it follows that there must be some H&S related rules or regulations that cover this point.

 

[Oswyntail]

This is a tricky one. Having travelled (many years ago) with children and a buggy, I can sympathise with all parties. I presume the reason the buggy was not folded was that there was a child in it - and keeping two children under control on your lap is hard, particularly as they are often ignored by fellow-passengers. Also, we do not know why the mother was travelling at that time, so that is out of the equation. But there is a safety issue, particularly with the modern chunky buggies that seem designed to be folded to put in the back of a Chelsea tractor. Far and away the best answer would be to see a woman in difficulties and offer to help - "Could I carry something?" "Could I help fold your buggy so that it doesn't block the gangway?". But that approach does seem to be dying out in today's Britain.

 

[jon0844]

The other child was older (maybe 4 or 5) and could possibly have helped too, but I am pretty sure that after all the abuse the man got, she can only have gone away thinking that she did absolutely nothing wrong.

To fold the buggy down at that point would have been tricky too, so it should have been done when she boarded. Given how these services fill up so much along the way, she may well have got on when the train was totally empty and not realised how crowded it can get - especially in 3-car formation.

 

[ukrob]

Blocking the doors with luggage/buggys drives me insane. Especially as just about every single train I use has areas for luggage/buggys etc.

Nothing worse than having to fight your way off a busy train because some inconsiderate asshole has blocked the doorway.

 

[pemma]

The general policy seems to be baby buggies aren't allowed on trains unless they are collapsed. The wheelchair space if vacant could be used if the mother was then prepared to fold up the buggy should a wheelchair user alight.

On a train I was on once (which was a 142) a woman boarded with a buggy and then left it blocking the door to the rear cab. The train was fairly full and had a lot of luggage on it but the woman and child got seats so there reason for not folding it up. Because it was a 142 the conductor obviously saw it and asked for it to be moved before closing the doors, but then what if it was a 150 where the conductor could have shut the doors without seeing where she left it and then the conductor wouldn't have been able to get through the train after closing the doors without breaking the buggy by banging the door in to it?

Leaving things in doorways is an insensible option for another reason as well - it's in a brilliant position for a thief to quickly grab it when alighting the train and you just need someone standing in your way for half a second to allow that to happen.

 

[philjo]

Do you know where they got off ?
Just wondering as obviously on the Finsbury Park-Moorgate section you need to go up an escalator to get out of the stations.
(Unless they used the cross-platform change onto the Victoria Line at Highbury)

I know that non-folding bikes are banned from that section of line for that reason as Tfl do not allow non-folded bikes on the escalators. I seem to recall that Tfl also had some wording about buggies having to be folded before taking them onto a moving escalator (& the child carried) - but can't find it now on their website.

 

[pemma]

I know that non-folding bikes are banned from that section of line for that reason as Tfl do not allow non-folded bikes on the escalators. I seem to recall that Tfl also had some wording about buggies having to be folded before taking them onto a moving escalator (& the child carried) - but can't find it now on their website.

I thought it would be NR conditions of carriage if it was a FCC service. However, in TFL's policy I've found:

You may bring with you:
• personal luggage that you are able to carry yourself (including up/down fixed stairways)
• folding buggies and pushchairs that you are able to carry yourself (including up/down fixed stairways)
• folding bicycles
• any other item, provided it is not dangerous or likely to injure anyone

The word folding seems to suggest that they should be folded on board.

 

[Greenback]

More information on buggies needs to be published. Too many people these days seem to think they have the right tot ake the wretched things everywhere, no matter what the inconvenience or consequences to everyone else.

My brothe ris 5 years younger than me, and I cna remember my mother having to look after me and him on shopping trips. We didn't have a car, and my brother was pushed in a lightweight, easily folding 'pushchair', which was then stowed safely away by the bus conductor!

 

[the sniper]

Too bad that Northern guard from a couple of weeks back wasn't onboard, he would have given her a piece of his mind!

Saying that, aren't these services DOO? Someone should tell this story to the RMT, it's another reason against DOO.

 

[harz99]

Too bad that Northern guard from a couple of weeks back wasn't onboard, he would have given her a piece of his mind!

Saying that, aren't these services DOO? Someone should tell this story to the RMT, it's another reason against DOO.

It's got nothing to do with DOO, those services that are DOO normally (in my experience) have a pretty strong Revenue Protection attendance who are equally as capable of sorting out this sort of thing as a conductor/guard.

And please, don't encourage the RMT to find yet another spurious reason to have a labour dispute!

 

[CarterUSM]

Yes please don't . Oswyntail is spot on, politely asking to fold or even better, getting their attention before they board if possible to advise on stowage is ideal. I thought most TOC's already had buggy advice, but whether the majority it applies to ever read it or not is another matter. Feet on the seats anyone?

 

[37372]

He then said, rather stupidly, that nobody should take kids out in the rush hour.

Hats off to the man for having the guts to say that, I've been dying to say that for a long time.

 

[Oswyntail]

Hats off to the man for having the guts to say that, I've been dying to say that for a long time.

Hospital appointment for the kids? Court appearance as chief witnesses against a violent thug? Appointment viewing school for older child? Come to that, why should anyone travel in the rush hour - most employers have flexitime?

 

[87015]

Hats off to the man for having the guts to say that, I've been dying to say that for a long time.

Tool.

 

[37372]

I know there will be many reasons behind taking young kids out during rush hour, but that's just a pet peeve of mine, speaking from the experience of many commutes crammed into tight spaces with buggies.

 

[jon0844]

I got off at Old Street and she didn't get off, so she went on to Moorgate. People seem happy to use escalators with buggies these days anyway.

 

[TGV]

They're both wrong. First of all, the mother should have thought about this before getting on a busy rush hour train. I'm a father of 2 kids. They've both been in London on trains and on the tube, and we've had our buggy both times. My wife and I are both switched on enough to know that taking them at rush hour is only done if totally unavoidable. If it must be done then we either take the smallest buggy we have and fold it up on the train and hold the kid on our lap. This is what the mum should have at least tried to do. As parents we roll our eyes when we see other parents lose all common sense when they have kids with them.

Then there's the staff member - what a ****. His attitude sucks. It IS bloody difficult with kids, and while as I've said, the mother should have switched on the common sense part of her brain, the TfL bloke should have switched on his - and his polite part too.

Jeez - if we're gonna get more people out of cars and into trains, this is exactly the kind of crap we need to sort out.

 

[silentone]

East Coast Coach F, often mistaken for the pram carriage and luggage van. I've encountered 4 families with buggies all claiming the buggie cannot be folded. You know in the age of 3D TV and high speed trains we still haven't mastered something known as a folding pram.

People, and I'll be honest it is mostly just mothers, seem to believe it's their god given right to keep the pram up. The mere suggestion of a guards van or luggage rack are like comitting murder.

I had a mother a few weeks ago who had 2 children, one around 3/4 and the other less than a year old. The pram the baby was in blocked the door and vestibule of the MK3, it did have folding arms which reduced its size slightly. She was in no way prepared to fold the pram having explained the service was too busy to allow it to remain as it was. There was no detachable seat for the baby and really the pram was not suited for travelling - she also claimed to have booked the 'pram space'.

 

[Ferret]

Hahaha! The 'pram space'?! Brilliant! She may have found herself with two choices; fold it down or get off!

As for buggies - why is it that they are built like tanks these days?! And, why do their owners seem to think that because they have a buggy they can park it in the FC wheelchair space and then sit in 1st class?! Unbelievable!

 

[jon0844]

the TfL bloke should have switched on his - and his polite part too.

I should point out that he was carrying a folder with survey forms and laminated cards explaining what the survey was about (I recognised them as I've filled one in before), so he was probably working for a market research company on BEHALF of TfL, unless they employ people directly?

Maybe he should have asked her to do the survey!! Now that would have been amusing!

 

[royaloak]

Because the world owes them!

They are "special".

 

[90019]

Because the world owes them!

They are "special".

As soon as you drop a sprog, you immediately have the right to do anything you want, and keep the moral high ground.

 

[CarterUSM]

Some people nowadays always seem to be too quick to be offended. Though the manner of the surveyor as described seems OTT and a schoolboy error .

 

[Geezertronic]

As soon as you drop a sprog, you immediately have the right to do anything you want, and keep the moral high ground.

You can't tarnish everyone with that brush, as always it is the minority that affect the majority

 

[pemma]

Hahaha! The 'pram space'?! Brilliant! She may have found herself with two choices; fold it down or get off!

Or you could have said "Of course the pram space. I take you purchased a first class ticket for both yourself and the baby. You didn't? Well the prams for standard class passengers are stored on the roof - it shouldn't fall off but we aren't insured if it does. Buggies are folded and placed in luggage space."

 

[Multiple Unit]

Thi sis the problem you make transport accesible and it gets abused the wheelk chair space is for wheel chiair the bike space for bikes not for prams or buggies they either foild them or don't get on the train same for those Mobility Scooters they sit oin the door way blocking it now its a breac of bye laws to obsturct a door way so wheres the BTP I konw in the canteen drinking tea THat s what BTP stands for British Tea Police failing that you will find them at any station picking on Inocent Train Spotters / Enthusiasts.

There really needs to be some clamp down on all theese things I mean who knows Pram / Buggie obstructing the doors has she got a bomb under it, Who knows.

Also this is the problem theesedays as this is why YP are why they are today as they are spoilt carted round every where in the buggie waited on hand and foot not in my day prams went in the guards van folded.

 

[Greenback]

People, and I'll be honest it is mostly just mothers, seem to believe it's their god given right to keep the pram up. The mere suggestion of a guards van or luggage rack are like comitting murder.

I had a mother a few weeks ago who had 2 children, one around 3/4 and the other less than a year old. The pram the baby was in blocked the door and vestibule of the MK3, it did have folding arms which reduced its size slightly. She was in no way prepared to fold the pram having explained the service was too busy to allow it to remain as it was. There was no detachable seat for the baby and really the pram was not suited for travelling - she also claimed to have booked the 'pram space'.

Having instructed the woman to fold the pram, were you splashed all over the newspapers?

As for buggies - why is it that they are built like tanks these days?! And, why do their owners seem to think that because they have a buggy they can park it in the FC wheelchair space and then sit in 1st class?! Unbelievable!

Modern buggies should be sent to Afghanistan, where they will provide far better protection against roadside bombs than the military vehicles already there...

As soon as you drop a sprog, you immediately have the right to do anything you want, and keep the moral high ground.

I call it the cult of the child, and it begins long before the baby is born...

Thi sis the problem you make transport accesible and it gets abused the wheelk chair space is for wheel chiair the bike space for bikes not for prams or buggies they either foild them or don't get on the train same for those Mobility Scooters they sit oin the door way blocking it now its a breac of bye laws to obsturct a door way so wheres the BTP I konw in the canteen drinking tea THat s what BTP stands for British Tea Police failing that you will find them at any station picking on Inocent Train Spotters / Enthusiasts.

There really needs to be some clamp down on all theese things I mean who knows Pram / Buggie obstructing the doors has she got a bomb under it, Who knows.

Also this is the problem theesedays as this is why YP are why they are today as they are spoilt carted round every where in the buggie waited on hand and foot not in my day prams went in the guards van folded.

You are quite correct, although I wouldn;t want to add to the hysteria about terorisms by bringing bombs into it, there's enough security messsages and such liek these days as it is. Mind you, if it led to the bloody things being banned, perhaps we should talk about the risk of bombings!

 

[90019]

You can't tarnish everyone with that brush, as always it is the minority that affect the majority

No, of course you can't. But it seems to be the mindset of far too many that having a child entitles you to do whatever you want, and anyone who tells you otherwise is discriminating because of it.

Personally, I think buggies that can't be folded should be banned from public transport. For the folding themselves, a bit of discretion by the guard if it's not busy, but otherwise, they're either folded, or you pay for a ticket for it.