"Bullet Train" derails in Eastern China. Carriages off bridge

[bb21]

Yes I agree. Just some additional information for reinforcement.

 

[asylumxl]

Because it's not that simple.

Even here in the UK where you might be required to run with the TPWS temporarily isolated, there is no single maximum speed imposed and it is still possible to exceed certain limits. For example, you can proceed through a Temporary Block Working section (for which the TPWS will need to be temporarily isolated) at up to 50mph, but you must still slow down to 15mph for any unsecured points, switch diamonds or swing-nose crossings. But then if you have to isolate it because it has become defective you may still proceed at linespeed provided another competent person is available (unless there is fog or falling snow), otherwise you're down to 40mph.

So you see, one system and so many different permitted speeds.

O L Leigh

Yes, but I was under the impression that the line in question used In Cab Signaling. I believed that if it was disabled, the driver would basically be like driving blind. Is this incorrect then? Was only a certain part of the system disabled?

 

[O L Leigh]

I don't honestly know. In fact I can find very little information about which system of signalling is used on China's high-speed lines and can only assume it's either the same system used in Japan or Germany or some hybrid of the two.

As to what happens when the signalling system fails or the on-train equipment needs to be isolated, again I just don't know. I would imagine that the signaller would instigate some form of temporary block working where only one train at a time is allowed into the section, and only once it has been confirmed that the train ahead has cleared the section. This would undoubtedly require a reduction in speed and the driver to control the speed of the train such that it can be stopped in the distance that the driver can see to be clear. What appears to have happened is some failure to instigate such a method of degraded working, whether through ignorance, negligence or someone further up the chain requiring it.

O L Leigh

 

[WatcherZero]

Conflicting stories coming out, some say that the dissapearance of a train from signalling communication should have stopped all other trains on the line and this was a technical failure with the following trains brakes not being automatically applied. Other accounts say that the signalling dispatchers had turned off the in cab signalling and were using radio tokens because they didnt want to close the line when signalling malfunctioned.

The driver had no warning of the stalled train and activated the emergency brakes seconds before impact slowing the train such that only 4 carriages were knocked from the viaduct which if at full speed would have resulted in 6 carriages being thrown off. The driver was sadly impaled by the brake lever at the moment of collision.

 

[O L Leigh]

Too much speculation at the moment, some of which is a variation on the theme expounded above.

I have heard a slightly different version which is that the first train had been cautioned through a "dark" section of line (20km/h) but that the signaller was under pressure to run the second train through the same section. So he sent that one into the same "dark" section before the first train had emerged at the other end and failed to caution the driver. Travelling much faster than the train ahead he quickly caught it up and was unable to stop before colliding with the rear. There has also been some discussion that the trains were running in the wrong order due to them both being delayed, which may have added to the confusion.

It's one of those things where we probably won't ever find out for certain what happened. But it is still very early days, so perhaps patience will be rewarded.

O L Leigh

 

[Yew]

I have heard a slightly different version which is that the first train had been cautioned through a "dark" section of line (20km/h) but that the signaller was under pressure to run the second train through the same section. So he sent that one into the same "dark" section before the first train had emerged at the other end and failed to caution the driver. Travelling much faster than the train ahead he quickly caught it up and was unable to stop before colliding with the rear. There has also been some discussion that the trains were running in the wrong order due to them both being delayed, which may have added to the confusion.


O L Leigh

Maybe if we had train 1 and train 2, with both running late. The signal man orders train 1 through the signal at full speed, and train 2 through at 20kph. however because the trains are late, train 2 is in front of train 1? Hence something that should be safe, becomes a crash.

 

[bb21]

I would imagine that the signaller would instigate some form of temporary block working where only one train at a time is allowed into the section, and only once it has been confirmed that the train ahead has cleared the section. This would undoubtedly require a reduction in speed and the driver to control the speed of the train such that it can be stopped in the distance that the driver can see to be clear. What appears to have happened is some failure to instigate such a method of degraded working, whether through ignorance, negligence or someone further up the chain requiring it.

O L Leigh

This is what should have happened. Train D301 should never have been allowed to enter the section. Insider story was that delay targets were being missed due to recent weather conditions and order came from above to overwrite the safety procedures. As I said before, no signaller would have been brave enough to make such a decision. Should something bad happen, he/she will then take all the flak. Depending on the severity of the outcome, the heaviest penalty could be life imprisonment.

The driver had no warning of the stalled train and activated the emergency brakes seconds before impact slowing the train such that only 4 carriages were knocked from the viaduct which if at full speed would have resulted in 6 carriages being thrown off. The driver was sadly impaled by the brake lever at the moment of collision.

There was no definitive answer as to whether the order was given for the driver to slow down. Words on the ground are that the driver had been cautioned of the train in the section however many minutes ahead of him, yet not received the order to slow down. It could be due to miscommunication that the driver of D301 was neither aware that D3115 had slowed to 20kph nor ordered to slow down, hence catching up D3115 very very quickly proceeding at 200kph.

There has also been some discussion that the trains were running in the wrong order due to them both being delayed, which may have added to the confusion.

According to the timetable, D301 was supposed to be ahead. It was due to leave the previous calling point Wenling Station at 1914, and pass Yongjia Station non-stop at approx 1934, arriving the next station Wenzhou South at 1942. Meanwhile D3115 was scheduled to leave Wenling Station at 1924, depart Yongjia at 1948, and arrive at Wenzhou South at 1957. In actual fact D3115 left Yongjia +27 at 2015, and was hit by thunder at approximately 2022. D301 came all the way from Beijing South more than 1500km away and
had been held at Yongjia for a free path due to late running. It left Yongjia 50 late at 2024 and explains why it is behind D3115. These are official figures.

... so perhaps patience will be rewarded.

We'll be lucky.

 

[es373]

I'm pretty sure the in cab signalling is almost the same as our TVM 430... Obviously not exactly the same but pretty much there about's.

 

[WatcherZero]

The Director of the station preceding the accident has done an interview with CCTV saying that the signalling had been switched to manual control due to technical signalling failure at his station. Whether thats true or not who knows.

The driver of the first train has dissapeared, seen by survivors after the collision helping people get off the train, he recieved a phonecall from his supervisor yelled that it wasnt his fault and that the other train had rear ended him then went into a catatonic state of shock telling the survivors not to take his picture or he would get fired. Since then hes dissapeared not appearing in public, nor his name on the casualty lists or survivor lists unlike other members of the train crews. Lots of Chinese media outlets demanding his appearance to answer questions on the conversations he had with signallers and/or the driver of the following train.

 

[bb21]

Compo for the family of the deceased has been announced as RMB 500k, equivalent to £50k. There is cry of foul play as the victims of the Yichun Crash in August 2010 received RMB 900k each.

 

[WatcherZero]

Chinese government now saying theres 'A serious design flaw' in the signalling, a green light failed to automatically turn red to alert the following train to the stalled preceding train. The signalling equipment was designed and installed in September 2009 by an unnamed Beijing design and research institute. At the same time staff at Wenzhou station 'failed to respond properly' to the malfunctioning signalling, switching to manual operation.

 

[pemma]

According to Wikipedia the trains were built as a joint venture between Bombardier and CSR.

 

[BestWestern]

For those looking for the 'truth', the ITV news (just finished) mentioned an item about it on the News at Ten this evening, with something about the 'leaders coming clean'; just caught them doing a brief mention. Might be enlightening. Or not :-l

 

[Kingfisher200262]

According to Wikipedia the trains were built as a joint venture between Bombardier and CSR.

One train was a result of the JV between CSR Sifang and Bombardier and the other was a result of the JV between CSR Sifang and Kawasaki. Both are now old technology, having been superseded by the CRH380a, b and c, one from CSR Sifang working alone (CRH380a), one from Sifang with Bombardier (Zefiro) and one from CNR (CRH380b).

In recent weeks, there have been several incidents involving trains losing power on the new Beijing - Shanghai dedicated high speed line. All have involved CRH380b trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Chinese government now saying theres 'A serious design flaw' in the signalling, a green light failed to automatically turn red to alert the following train to the stalled preceding train. The signalling equipment was designed and installed in September 2009 by an unnamed Beijing design and research institute. At the same time staff at Wenzhou station 'failed to respond properly' to the malfunctioning signalling, switching to manual operation.

The institute involved is the Beijing National Railway Research and Design Institute of Signals and Communications. The institute has accepted full responsibility for the accident, issued an apology and said that it will accept all appropriate punishment resulting from the accident.

Mr Wen has also said that the investigation will examine all aspects of the accident and will rectify any equipment and / or procedural failures. Presumably this will include exhuming the passenger car body structures, which were cut up and buried to make room for a crane to come on site to lift the carriages clear of the line for it to be reopened.

This is the one aspect of this whole tragedy that leaves a bad taste for me and should have been prevented by the crash scene being treated as a scene of crime as it would have been in the UK.

 

[WatcherZero]

They dug up and moved some very muddy crushed carriages a couple of days ago, after the burial outcry. They wernt buried for crane access however, the line was reopened 24 hours after the crash and they didnt start burying the carriages until 48 hours later. The total destruction via backhoe of the driving cars I think was the greatest tragedy as the passenger cars are relativley intact.

 

[flymo]

Story on TV here tonight about the locals digging up the buried carriage parts and selling them on. One report of a circuit board going for about RMB100, wheels and axle parts going for scrap and parts of doors being removed as well.

What the heck is going on up there.....ad:

 

[WatcherZero]

New internet meme doing the rounds in China, 'anyhow, I believe it.' after a speech where it was said that burying the carriages was to facillitate rescue efforts and ended with that phrase.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

They dug up and moved some very muddy crushed carriages a couple of days ago, after the burial outcry. They wernt buried for crane access however, the line was reopened 24 hours after the crash and they didnt start burying the carriages until 48 hours later. The total destruction via backhoe of the driving cars I think was the greatest tragedy as the passenger cars are relativley intact.

That's incorrect. I was in China and was following the situation very closely. The cars were buried on the morning of the 24th (the day after the accident) and the line reopened on Monday 25th.

That said, I completely condemn the actions of the people that authorised and the people who carried out the burial.

 

[Subwayboy]

http://www.hollysys.com.sg/home/ind...ree-of-malfunctions-during-the-fatal-accident

The link above is the press release from Hollysys, who seem (I have never heard of them) to be the ATP manufacturer.

If they are, they are probably only a Manufacturing front for a Mainland based design house/university.

I also understand that China has a ERTMS clone, not sure if the product was based on this.

Several years ago I was invited to work on the safety case for the ERTMS clone products, but I like many others declined. I have lost touch with the status of it, or if it was even used.

I find it strange that the manufacturer would be willing to so quickly detail that they are in no way responsible ?

 

[junglejames]

So did the first train stall or was it proceding under caution?

Now lets assume this new story is true (and his little bit about red and green signals is just added in to make it easy to understand). What was the signaller doing? It should have been noticed that the second train was not slowing down enough. Also, as this first train has now just stalled, it should have been visible to the signaller (in fact the signaller should have known full well about it anyway), so why has it not been passed onto the following train?

Still too much doesnt make sense.

 

[68000]

Looks to me that the track circuit did not 'fail safe' in the interlocking. This then allowed the signal to still show proceed.

They are using some sort of ETCS derivative probably level 1 ETCS with errors.

 

[es373]

Looks to me that the track circuit did not 'fail safe' in the interlocking. This then allowed the signal to still show proceed.

They are using some sort of ETCS derivative probably level 1 ETCS with errors.

So I take it you're a signalling systems engineer for the signalling in question?

Speculation like that isn't really helpful is it?

 

[bb21]

So did the first train stall or was it proceding under caution?

Now lets assume this new story is true (and his little bit about red and green signals is just added in to make it easy to understand). What was the signaller doing? It should have been noticed that the second train was not slowing down enough. Also, as this first train has now just stalled, it should have been visible to the signaller (in fact the signaller should have known full well about it anyway), so why has it not been passed onto the following train?

Still too much doesnt make sense.

My understanding from a school friend who now works for China Railways is that Train D3115 had not stalled. It was crawling along at 20kph when hit from behind by D301 which had slowed down slightly to about 150kph after the driver slammed on the brakes. D3115 only stopped after the overhead came down. However there are other versions of the event I have heard that say otherwise.

 

[tinyanmcw]

An accident is good for the mainland so that they could know '' fast '' is not everything, it is nothing compared with the japanese one, their levels just not the same.

 

[flymo]

An accident is good for the mainland so that they could know '' fast '' is not everything, it is nothing compared with the japanese one, their levels just not the same.

Not sure I would use the word 'good' in regard to this accident, any accident can never be good in my opinion. I think this accident should be a wake up call that will allow a complete review of the systems in place on the Chinese rail network, including high speed and others.

 

[WatcherZero]

Now you may remember that after the corruption scandal the speed of new HSR lines was reduced from 380kph to 300kph over safety and corruption concerns. The government has taken further action after this crash (which has now been concluded by the investigation board was due to human error from deliberate non-adherence to safety rules and utilisation of loopholes in regulations and not 'act of god' lightning damage). All new line constructions have been suspended and all in progress and completed projects are to be reviewed, was to be 13,000 km of HSR track by the end of this year but the target has been reduced to 10,000km and line speeds have been further reduced. Lines originally to operate at 350km/h have been reduced to 300 km/h and lines which were to operate at 300 km/h have been reduced to 260 km/h.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-to-suspend-bullet-train-project-2336254.html



54 CRH380BL units have been withdrawn from service after only a month after 37 failures in operation. It comes two days after their manufacture was suspended by the Government for a safety review due to signalling faults in the safety systems destroying service reliability.

The problems cited by the manufacturer include false axle temp alarms, traction system signal interruption causing protection system to reduce locomotion, and automatic pantograph disengaging due to switch malfunction.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-08/12/c_131045456.htm

 

[Wolfie]

This is what the BBC have to say - sounds less than wonderful, particularly given earlier allegations of bribery and corruption.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14504877

 

[scotsman]

Turns out my mate was on one of the Velaro lookalikes just after the crash. He says he wasn't bothered since it was over 1000 miles away