Bullying

[Smudger105e]

There is another thread on here which brushed this subject, but it is one that is close to my heart, having been recently bullied (I am in my 50s!!).

I am just curious about why people are bullies, and techniques that can be used to stop it.

In my case, I complained to the managerment, and I am not convinced that any positive action was taken to stop it, although I may of course be wrong, I might just not know about it!! The campaign of intimidation has so far lasted 18 months in my case, and I think that the perception is that I should deal with it, and man up, certain individuals are fed up with me wingeing about it.

What nature can bullying take too? In my case it was constant digs (notes on the board calling me a faggot and a pr!ck, saying I do not want to do jobs etc) and stupid things like empty pop cans put on my locker.

I believe that the bullied are not the weak ones, but the bullies, and it may help the bullied (no, not O.V.S!) to combat the bullies.

Discuss!!

 

[michael769]

Bullying is often down to low self esteem. When you are not confident in your own self worth, you can feel compelled to find ways to make yourself superior to others. Often the only approach they can come up with is to either belittle others by namecalling and the like, or to use low level violence to try to gain a measure of control over them. Having control, even if it is only to make others feel miserable create a false sense of superiority.

Dealing with it can vary. Low level name calling can sometimes be dealt with by ignoring it entirely, as if their attempt to gain power seems to be failing they will seek an easier target. But for this to succeed Ny discomfort they cause has to be completely hidden. Often people trying to ignore bullying betry through body language the distress it causes and that can be enough.

Physical bullying can be harder to deal with, and the best way is to get assistance from others which, depending on circumstances may be teachers, other manager, HR or even the police. This can sometimes be hard, as even in this day and age not everyone takes bullying seriously enough.

 

[455driver]

I am just curious about why people are bullies, and techniques that can be used to stop it..

They lack self esteem and it makes them feel better (for 5 minutes) when they pick on somebody else.

They usually are in a pack as they are to weak and feeble to do it on their own, safety in numbers and all that.

I had a similar thing about a decade ago where a group of chav scum were damaging my cars and caravan almost on a weekly basis etc, Police were not interested so I got hold of them on their own in turn and beat the <woops> out of 3 of them, the other 4 came round and apologised to me and promised not to do anything again, didnt stop me doing one more of them just to make sure they had got the message.

Note I do not normally advocate violence (this was the first and last time I had used it in my adult life) but sometimes needs must, did feel good though.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Speaking as somebody who suffers from bullying in school, I see where you are coming from. Bullies are usually people who a)have no life b) are jealous of you and c) have a low self-esteem. Im bullied because of my hobby and my ethnic background and the way they bully me ranges from all sorts.

One of the most often ways is walking up to me and just giving me a sly little punch to the face and name calling of a racial nature. I'll list the other things I know people do to me, putting mushed up bananas in my bag and pocket, emptying my bag onto the floor, ripping pages out of my school books, throwing ink all over my book, flicking my ears with elastic bands, snapping my pencils, taking my laces out of my shoes in pe, put superglue in my book, taping my locker shut with duct tape, throwing paper at me, spitting in my food, report me to the teacher for looking at "train porn" on the computer, ripping pictures of trains I print off, print pictures of trains off and put "Alex's wanking material" on it then stick them round school,pour water in my bag and put condoms full of yoghurt in my bag. That's on top of being called names such as paki, coon, nobhead,****,c u next tuesday, bender, gimp, dickhead, ****head, prick and faggot. It's honestly unreal what they do to me, all because I do something train related on a saturday instead of hanging around Bromborough smoking and going to crap house parties downing WKD and cidre. I have been to house parties before and walked out because the only drink they had was booze and this was a 14th birthday party so I considered calling the police. I still wake up at 6:30 everyday, get dressed in my uniform and pay an extortionate price for a school bus and travel 12 miles to school to face the above. It's got to a point where I think why do I bother? Got to a point where I feel the need to do something stupid like bring a knife into school.

Your all thinking how do I deal with this? Well mostly I just turn around and smack them or say a really horrible thing about their mum and that deals with it for anything up to a week. Or I just do what they do back. Ignoring it isnt an option because they never let up. Or just a simple Foxtrot oscar to them can sometimes do the trick. Usually though if I beat them up, it's me who ends up in trouble and not them, I have broken 6 noses since September and don't care if I break 600 because it's got to a point where it's getting stupid. Also note that every fight I've been challenged to has been won by myself. I bet your all thinking why dont I tell somebody? Well, my form teacher don't give a damn about anything and is just a purile little yuppie who is less mature than the people who bully me so I wont tell him, no learning mentor for a year now, senior deputy head hates me due to my poor behaviour last year (which was sort of my fault),same with the head of year, don't have a clue how to see the headmaster and no other teachers really do anything but the old "don't do it again". My parents do phone in and see the senior staff and promise they will take action but they don't. One of the only people who really cares is my English teacher who is a deputy head and head of pupil welfare and the creator of our school anti-bullying policy. She actually sits down with me and notes down everything I say and follows it up and either has them out of the school for a period of time, weeks of detention and isolation from lessons or she just simply blows a gasket and gives them the hairdryer treatment. She actually listens and sees my point of view. She does all sorts of things to help me in my school life such as stress relievers, notepad to note down feelings and record bullying (also how I react). What's also good is she has appointed me school council representative for my form which actually goes down well with most people including the dickheads who bully me. The other teacher who cares is my English-Korean ICT teacher who is a fellow rail enthusiast so I don't really need to go into any detail how he is cool apart from the fact he takes his own luchtimes to go to the headmaster with his concerns about the bullying situation If it wasnt for her and him and my few friends I don't know where I would be now, they have kept me going. Only a minority of people have actually come up to me, shook my hand and said sorry because they meant it.

My school is a very prestigious school which Im proud to be in and represent at a sporting level. Academically, I'm obliterating my target levels and doing brilliant (apart from music). So good I started doing Design Technology at A-Level standard in both lunchtimes and 6th form lessons. I excel in sport, Geography, English, Sciences (particularly Biology and Physics) and am well above average in maths. I don't let bullying hamper my attainment and achievement. One day I hope it will end and don't mind being friends with these people once they stop and understand my hobby and would love to help them get interested into something. I want to lead a good life and live it to the max. Ok I don't react the best way to bullying and certainly do not condone or endorse violence, unless as a last resort, but I do say, concentrate on what you like doing and perform to the very best because one day you will look these people in the eye and hear them say sorry and be the best of mates. Just wanted to share my experience and how I deal with it and how I don't let it affect me too the point of depression or suicide. Thanks for taking time to read my post. Do tell somebody that you know will listen and do listen to them as they will help you in one way or the other.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In my case, I complained to the management, and I am not convinced that any positive action was taken to stop it, although I may of course be wrong, I might just not know about it!! The campaign of intimidation has so far lasted 18 months in my case, and I think that the perception is that I should deal with it, and man up, certain individuals are fed up with me wingeing about it.

If a company has established policies to deal with bullying, the age of the person who suffers should make no difference. The professionals in the HR department should be very much aware of current guidance and legislation with regard to this matter.

You did right bringing this the attention of your company, as they will have had to opened a file on the matter, which then can be referred to at a later stage as it will have recorded the date that you first brought the matter to their attention.

 

[Oswyntail]

What would people do if it were the line manager (in an office) that was doing the bullying? Backed up by her line manager?

 

[richw]

What would people do if it were the line manager (in an office) that was doing the bullying? Backed up by her line manager?

Unless you can provide evidence and back up your complaint there is little can be done. If its a verbal bullying, do you have the ability to have a dictaphone, or ensure you have somebody else with you for every encounter with the line manager. A manager should not conduct a one to one discussion unless the employee is happy with one to one interaction all encounters should be with a witness, or in a public area.
When I was a manager for a restaurant chain we were advised by senior management not to be alone with any staff member without a witness present, simply due to the number of complaints made by staff around the country. The senior management advised us this to cover ourselves, and if we didnt follow their guidelines they wouldnt back us if a complaint was made. I felt more confident having discussions with a witness especially in certain formal situations

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What would people do if it were the line manager (in an office) that was doing the bullying? Backed up by her line manager?

That which you describe sounds to be a very unsaluatory state of affairs. In a case that you so describe, preliminary legal advice should be sought as the stated abrogation of the normal state of affairs would seem to be coercive misfeasance.

 

[richw]

That which you describe sounds to be a very unsaluatory state of affairs. In a case that you so describe, preliminary legal advice should be sought as the stated abrogation of the normal state of affairs would seem to be coercive misfeasance.

With the legal route would the victim would need more hard evidence than an employer would need.
the employer does not need to prove beyond reasonable doubt, but wouldnt the legal route have to prove beyond reasonable doubt? The employer only has to have reasonable belief the incident occured, and if the next line manager doesnt have reasonable belief due to lack of evidence then they cant take action.
Does your employer have an ombuds scheme? if so try speaking to them

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With the legal route would the victim would need more hard evidence than an employer would need. The employer does not need to prove beyond reasonable doubt, but wouldn't the legal route have to prove beyond reasonable doubt? The employer only has to have reasonable belief the incident occurred, and if the next line manager doesn't have reasonable belief due to lack of evidence then they cant take action.

Maybe we have a misunderstanding on matters. My last posting was in response to the hypothetical stated scenario stated in a posting of the line manager carrying out the bullying.

 

[bb21]

Got to a point where I feel the need to do something stupid like bring a knife into school.

Please make sure that you don't. This is an offence that will see you excluded from the school wherever you are, if not more, and really isn't a smart way of dealing with things. It is simply not worth risking your future for some bullies.

Usually though if I beat them up, it's me who ends up in trouble and not them

Exactly my point, and I think your bullies know this and may well be using it to their advantage.

One of the only people who really cares is my English teacher who is a deputy head and head of pupil welfare and the creator of our school anti-bullying policy. She actually sits down with me and notes down everything I say and follows it up and either has them out of the school for a period of time, weeks of detention and isolation from lessons or she just simply blows a gasket and gives them the hairdryer treatment. She actually listens and sees my point of view. She does all sorts of things to help me in my school life such as stress relievers, notepad to note down feelings and record bullying (also how I react). What's also good is she has appointed me school council representative for my form which actually goes down well with most people including the dickheads who bully me. The other teacher who cares is my English-Korean ICT teacher who is a fellow rail enthusiast so I don't really need to go into any detail how he is cool apart from the fact he takes his own luchtimes to go to the headmaster with his concerns about the bullying situation If it wasnt for her and him and my few friends I don't know where I would be now, they have kept me going. Only a minority of people have actually come up to me, shook my hand and said sorry because they meant it.

It is great that there is someone who cares. Unfortunately school can be a scary place to be if you are perceived to be different and many teachers don't want to get involved for various reasons. The bottom line is, as long as you are not physically assaulted, there is a way to ignore them. Of course you don't help yourself if you get easily sucked into a fight, and therefore creating a poor reputation amongst the teachers for yourself.

My school is a very prestigious school which Im proud to be in and represent at a sporting level. Academically, I'm obliterating my target levels and doing brilliant (apart from music). So good I started doing Design Technology at A-Level standard in both lunchtimes and 6th form lessons. I excel in sport, Geography, English, Sciences (particularly Biology and Physics) and am well above average in maths. I don't let bullying hamper my attainment and achievement.

This is good. Many people get into a vicious cycle of self-harm and low self-esteem due to bullying, which in many cases is simply not worth it. There is help out there and the best way to answer back to those bullies is be better at things than they are so that they can see their bullying is not having the desired outcome that they wished for. Bullying in many cases is a diversionary tactic to shift attention away from the bullies' own deficiencies, and you are doing very well.

One day I hope it will end and don't mind being friends with these people once they stop and understand my hobby and would love to help them get interested into something. I want to lead a good life and live it to the max. Ok I don't react the best way to bullying and certainly do not condone or endorse violence, unless as a last resort, but I do say, concentrate on what you like doing and perform to the very best because one day you will look these people in the eye and hear them say sorry and be the best of mates. Just wanted to share my experience and how I deal with it and how I don't let it affect me too the point of depression or suicide. Thanks for taking time to read my post. Do tell somebody that you know will listen and do listen to them as they will help you in one way or the other.

Bullying can occur at any stage of your life and in adulthood, it could be more vicious and nasty sometimes. The important thing is focus on what you want to achieve and do your best to work towards that goal. Don't let the bullies distract you.

Chin up, and remember that the bullies are only trying to hide their own weaknesses so you are better than them.

 

[LE Greys]

From my point of view, it's a particularly nasty Human twist on a piece of animal behaviour. Watch a pack of wolves on a kill, or a troop of monkeys feeding, and you'll see them constantly snarling at each other or pushing each other off particular bits of food they want. With the more intelligent animals, it's especially prevelant among the less-dominent members (the insecure ones according to one explanation). Humans carry it a stage further, and once again the insecure ones need to spend much more of their time reminding others of their social position. Unfortunately, Humans have much more complicated brains and better memories than most social animals, and remember what has happened to them much more.

The only advice I can give you is this. In the immediate future, find yourself a powerful ally and stick with them. If you can't do that in your local circle, look elsewhere. In the long term, consider where you will be in ten years time, and try to make sure you have a secure future where you won't need to worry about them any more. If they haven't broken you in ten years, then you've beaten them after all.

 

[Heinz57]

I was also a victim of bullying at school. Right the way from year 7 to the day I left in year 11.

It was pretty bad for me too, the abuse would range from silly name calling to more offensive and intolerable name calling. Then more physical things, such as hiding my stuff (not in the way a friend might hide anothers pencil case), throwing my uniform into the showers (and soaking the clothing) whilst changing for PE, 'wedgies' and the more imature 'keg' where they would attempt and sometimes succeed in pulling down my trousers (though thankfuly not my underwear), and also snatching a towel from around me after showering during a holiday trip. Then there was the actual attacks, including 'happy slaps', 'shocking' (where the attacker would 'jab' me hard in the stomach with their fingers, often leaving me unable to breathe), (literaly) throwing me down banks. I also recall an english lesson where the teacher left the room for some reason and I thus found myself pinned to a desk by two people whilst another repeatedly thumped me in the back.

I couldn't stand up to them either. Anything verbal would result in more bullying, and I was never strong enough for physical retaliation. It got so bad that I wanted to move schools. It got realy bad, my parents used to come into school about it, and many members of staff got involved too, this would range from classroom assistant to head of year and head of pastoral - they were all thankfuly on my side.

One particular member of staff was a science teacher (and assistant head of my y10 and y11), who used to not only lease with me. But also with pastoral, senior management, my parents and siblings. He was determined to get it sorted, he told me to report ANY incidents no matter how small to him. It even got to a stage where this one indervidual would find himself excluded if he was to say anything else out of line to me.

Anyway, I stuck with school and came out with more GCSEs than all of these bullies.

People often said to me that these inderviduals were 'jealous' and threatend by me, I would think 'How? They had physical strength, more friends than me and damn it they got the girls too'.
But now, I sit here about six years later; I have a degree from the best course of its type in the country, many other qualifications, a good job and of course a good circle of friends.
They have no qualifications, many have no jobs and live of benifits, some have criminal records and some even have estranged kids.

I hold a point here, which is for ATWalex101 and anybody else who is the victim of bullying at school. Do not give up, somebody WILL listen - if one teacher doesn't then go a step higher to heads of year, if still nothing go higher even if its all the way to the Principle (or further). Hold your head up high and DO NOT let the bullies bother you. You will soon see who the real 'loser' is when you have degrees, good respectable jobs. And they have benifits and criminal records.

 

[Yew]

Always remember these word. School Reunion, New Jaguar, Black Tie Evening Dress. (ie, you are going to end up a lot better off in the long run than them)


On a more practical note for those at school, stay with your friends, generally they dont like picking on a group. If they have managed to alienate you from lots of people, maybe picking up a new hobby could introduce you to new people in your year to make friends, and some people in years above, never underestimate that advantage. As an example my cousin has just started year 7, at the same school my 6ft tall brother is at the 6th form. So far he hasnt had any trouble.

Always go to the authorities when possible, if you pester them enough they Will take action. Teachers, heads of year/school, and if it is required the police.

 

[swj99]

Bullying is a power trip, undertaken by people who feel inferior, but can't admit it to themselves, or have such a $h1t life that they want to drag other people down to their level.
In my experience, they often only stop if they are stopped in some way. Sometimes this happens if someone turns round and hits them back much harder. But this doesn't work all the time. The proper psychos like pain, and will just carry on, or get worse. Be careful and trust your instinct when assessing which type of bully you're dealing with.

These days, a lot of what counts as bullying fits the definition of harassment as defined by the Protection From Harassment Act 1997, which says,

A person must not pursue a course of conduct

(a) which amounts to harassment of another, and
(b) which he knows or ought to know amounts to harassment of the other.

The act doesn't define what harassment is, and it could be anything from someone sending you unwanted text messages, or standing outside your house, through to giving you verbal abuse. For it to be harassment, there has to be a course of conduct, which means it has to have happened on at least two occasions. Someone having a loud party every friday night could count as harassment.

I put up a website about harassment a while ago, so rather than me copy and paste text from there, feel free to have a read of it. Please excuse the nag screen that pops up from time to time, it's because it's on free hosting, and they seem to be advertising again for more customers who they hope will upgrade to paid hosting.

http://antiharassment.co.uk/

 

[anthony263]

Speaking as somebody who suffers from bullying in school, I see where you are coming from. Bullies are usually people who a)have no life b) are jealous of you and c) have a low self-esteem. Im bullied because of my hobby and my ethnic background and the way they bully me ranges from all sorts.

One of the most often ways is walking up to me and just giving me a sly little punch to the face and name calling of a racial nature. I'll list the other things I know people do to me, putting mushed up bananas in my bag and pocket, emptying my bag onto the floor, ripping pages out of my school books, throwing ink all over my book, flicking my ears with elastic bands, snapping my pencils, taking my laces out of my shoes in pe, put superglue in my book, taping my locker shut with duct tape, throwing paper at me, spitting in my food, report me to the teacher for looking at "train porn" on the computer, ripping pictures of trains I print off, print pictures of trains off and put "Alex's wanking material" on it then stick them round school,pour water in my bag and put condoms full of yoghurt in my bag. That's on top of being called names such as paki, coon, nobhead,****,c u next tuesday, bender, gimp, dickhead, ****head, prick and faggot. It's honestly unreal what they do to me, all because I do something train related on a saturday instead of hanging around Bromborough smoking and going to crap house parties downing WKD and cidre. I have been to house parties before and walked out because the only drink they had was booze and this was a 14th birthday party so I considered calling the police. I still wake up at 6:30 everyday, get dressed in my uniform and pay an extortionate price for a school bus and travel 12 miles to school to face the above. It's got to a point where I think why do I bother? Got to a point where I feel the need to do something stupid like bring a knife into school.

Your all thinking how do I deal with this? Well mostly I just turn around and smack them or say a really horrible thing about their mum and that deals with it for anything up to a week. Or I just do what they do back. Ignoring it isnt an option because they never let up. Or just a simple Foxtrot oscar to them can sometimes do the trick. Usually though if I beat them up, it's me who ends up in trouble and not them, I have broken 6 noses since September and don't care if I break 600 because it's got to a point where it's getting stupid. Also note that every fight I've been challenged to has been won by myself. I bet your all thinking why dont I tell somebody? Well, my form teacher don't give a damn about anything and is just a purile little yuppie who is less mature than the people who bully me so I wont tell him, no learning mentor for a year now, senior deputy head hates me due to my poor behaviour last year (which was sort of my fault),same with the head of year, don't have a clue how to see the headmaster and no other teachers really do anything but the old "don't do it again". My parents do phone in and see the senior staff and promise they will take action but they don't. One of the only people who really cares is my English teacher who is a deputy head and head of pupil welfare and the creator of our school anti-bullying policy. She actually sits down with me and notes down everything I say and follows it up and either has them out of the school for a period of time, weeks of detention and isolation from lessons or she just simply blows a gasket and gives them the hairdryer treatment. She actually listens and sees my point of view. She does all sorts of things to help me in my school life such as stress relievers, notepad to note down feelings and record bullying (also how I react). What's also good is she has appointed me school council representative for my form which actually goes down well with most people including the dickheads who bully me. The other teacher who cares is my English-Korean ICT teacher who is a fellow rail enthusiast so I don't really need to go into any detail how he is cool apart from the fact he takes his own luchtimes to go to the headmaster with his concerns about the bullying situation If it wasnt for her and him and my few friends I don't know where I would be now, they have kept me going. Only a minority of people have actually come up to me, shook my hand and said sorry because they meant it.

My school is a very prestigious school which Im proud to be in and represent at a sporting level. Academically, I'm obliterating my target levels and doing brilliant (apart from music). So good I started doing Design Technology at A-Level standard in both lunchtimes and 6th form lessons. I excel in sport, Geography, English, Sciences (particularly Biology and Physics) and am well above average in maths. I don't let bullying hamper my attainment and achievement. One day I hope it will end and don't mind being friends with these people once they stop and understand my hobby and would love to help them get interested into something. I want to lead a good life and live it to the max. Ok I don't react the best way to bullying and certainly do not condone or endorse violence, unless as a last resort, but I do say, concentrate on what you like doing and perform to the very best because one day you will look these people in the eye and hear them say sorry and be the best of mates. Just wanted to share my experience and how I deal with it and how I don't let it affect me too the point of depression or suicide. Thanks for taking time to read my post. Do tell somebody that you know will listen and do listen to them as they will help you in one way or the other.

I foudn my school was the same with staff not really doing much. Of course a lot of the bullying stopped after I punched one of the lads which shocked a lot of people

 

[D841 Roebuck]

What would people do if it were the line manager (in an office) that was doing the bullying? Backed up by her line manager?

Such circumstances would be better dealt with with the help of your Union, if you are a member.

 

[Smudger105e]

Thank you all for your input to this thread.

To be honest, I did not start it to get advice, I know what I need to do, but that does not mean that it is easy to take the action against a colleague. It makes you feel like the one in the wrong, and also one does tend to spend a lot of time self analysing to see if the bullying is happening, or if it's your own perception and there is nothing actually going on.

I am actually a Health & Safety Representative at my place of work, and have recently been on a Bullying and Harrassment course run by my Trade Union. Very informative, and it did tell what the difference is between bullying and harrassment.

I tried numerous methods of getting the individual to stop, from ignoring it, to reciprocating the behaviour, reporting it to the management and was considering whether to threaten him, although fortunately decided this would not be appropriate. I don't want the sack for that!!

It is, however, a very widespread behaviour, and in my experience, Management tend not to take it as seriously as they should.

I would also like to thank those who have PMd me on this subject.

The reason I put my age in the original post was to show that being bullied is not purely the domain of those in full time education

 

[swj99]

spend a lot of time self analysing to see if the bullying is happening, or if it's your own perception and there is nothing actually going on.

You're not alone there. Bullies tend to isolate their victims which somehow perpetuates their unacceptable behaviour.

Very informative, and it did tell what the difference is between bullying and harassment.

Out of interest, what would you say is the difference. I ask because I think the two are often closely related, with a certain amount of overlap.

in my experience, Management tend not to take it as seriously as they should.

Without wishing to make excuses for them, I've found in the past that management sometimes struggle to comprehend the seriousness of bullying, and some would even prefer to bury their heads in the sand in the hope that it goes away. Despite so called mission statements, and procedures which are supposed to be used to deal with things like this, I think managers are sometimes reluctant, or possibly even scared, to get involved, or be seen to get involved because of the internal politics which sometimes exist in organizations. With this in mind, it's probably worth not assuming they will do the right, or correct thing, just because you know what they should be doing, or hope they are doing.

The reason it's difficult to reason with a bully is that they are not in a rational state of mind themselves, or rather their behaviour is not programmed by a rational part of their personality. And they often don't know they are doing something wrong.
I think The Wonder Stuff summed it up quite well in their 1989 song, '30 Years In The Bathroom', with one of the lines at the beginning, which is,

You can't argue with a sick mind, so don't try.

 

[Smudger105e]

Out of interest, what would you say is the difference. I ask because I think the two are often closely related, with a certain amount of overlap.

They are indeed very closely related. Harassment is the unfair or unequal treatment of someone because of a trait such as gender, disability, sexual orientation, marital status, race, religious beliefs etc. If the treatment is not associated with one of these, then it is bullying.