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Bus contracts

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harry42

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Sorry, I am very dim with buses! I have a question:

  • How do you get a contract from the council?
  • Does the company pay for the contract or does the council pay the company?
  • Who collects the revenue from the fares?
  • Who pays for buses and repairs etc?
  • Who can have a contract?


Thanks in advance :D
 
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Deerfold

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Sorry, I am very dim with buses! I have a question:

  • How do you get a contract from the council?
  • Does the company pay for the contract or does the council pay the company?
  • Who collects the revenue from the fares?
  • Who pays for buses and repairs etc?
  • Who can have a contract?


Thanks in advance :D

Councils will put out an inviation to tender from time to time.
Many councils require companies to have already registered an interest in bidding for contracts which enables them to do basic queries about how financially sound etc they are.
As councils outside of London only have contracts for services which no-one will run commercially the council will pay for the contract. This could change - various ITAs have suggested operating Quality Contracts which are run similarly to the London model with all routes contracted out.
Contracts will usually be allowed to be terminated with sufficient notice - one reason for this can be that a company has registered a route or some journeys on it commercially.

The bus company will usually collect the fares. Sometimes contracts specift that a bus company will be paid a flat fare and will then keep the fares. Sometimes any fares collected are deducted from the amount paid by the council. The fare levels are usually set by the council (but usually in line with any similar commercial services).

Usually the operating company will obtain and maintain buses though this can vary. Sometimes councils will provide a bus and it is ecpected to be returned in good condition at the end of the contract or penalties can be charged - this is what currenly happens on some West Yorkshire contracts such as the Hebden Bridge minibus network.

Usually any company registed with VOSA and a license allowing them to run enough buses. Sometimes councils will check that companies are financially stable and may check that company has suitable policies in line with those of the council - for equality etc.
 
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harry42

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Thankyou so much, answered my questions! :D

One more thing though:

I'm not going to but say I brought 2 buses and then said to Nottingham City Council I want a contract. What would they say/what would I have to do? :lol::idea:
 

Deerfold

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Thankyou so much, answered my questions! :D

One more thing though:

I'm not going to but say I brought 2 buses and then said to Nottingham City Council I want a contract. What would they say/what would I have to do? :lol::idea:

You'd have to satisfy VOSA you were a suitable person/company to run passenger services. This is probably the hardest step.

Then you'd contact NCC.

They'd probably send you a questionnaire to fill out and ask for various details from you.

If you satisfied their criteria they'd probably start to send you copies of their Invitations to Tender.

You could apply for any of these that required 1 or 2 buses. If you were cheaper than anyone else you'd start running the route for the period tendered or shorter time if due notice was given.
 

anthony263

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Well I do hope you have a lot of money as that is one criteria the Traffic Commisioner will want along with someone who is a qualified Transport manager.
 

34D

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Well I do hope you have a lot of money as that is one criteria the Traffic Commisioner will want along with someone who is a qualified Transport manager.

Indeed. After buying the buses, you would need to show three months bank statements showing an account balance of £13,000.

I don't know if this is serious or some schoolboy proposal, but for around £1,000 a month I would probably be able to put you in touch with someone who'd be your part time transport manager.
 

harry42

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Indeed. After buying the buses, you would need to show three months bank statements showing an account balance of £13,000.

I don't know if this is serious or some schoolboy proposal, but for around £1,000 a month I would probably be able to put you in touch with someone who'd be your part time transport manager.

Just wondering ;) Although it would be quite fun!
 

northwichcat

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One thing about 'invitation to tenders' the council can put out a invitation to tender but if a company decides to register the same service that's out to tender or a similar one commercially then the council will withdraw the invitation to tender.
 

CatfordCat

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To expand on what others have correctly said,

First off, you would need to be a licensed PSV Operator (or in some cases, licensed hackney carriage proprietor / private hire vehicle operator) to get awarded any contract. PSV licensing is handled by the traffic commissioners - if you're not already licensed, I suggest a web search for leaflet PSV437 which is a 58 page document. Hackney carriage / private hire vehicle licensing is done by local councils (districts / city / boroughs where there is still a county or in metropolitan areas - only exception is London where like most things, it's different and part of TfL.) There are broad national guidelines on HC / PHV licensing, but local councils have a lot of discretion when it comes to exactly what standards and procedures they adopt. Some taxi licensing authorities have a special class of PHV licence for vehicles only used on school contracts.

Contracts for home to school transport / social services transport are handled by the relevant departments of county or unitary councils (some such councils have one central transport team who handle local bus, education and social services transport, some don't.)

Generally speaking, they will want some pre-qualification information (e.g. evidence of the licence/s, insurance, some information about your maintenance and management arrangements and so on - e.g. if you're a "one man and his bus" operation, then what are you going to do if you're ill or the bus breaks down?)

Drivers for this sort of work are likely to require an additional level of police checking. Contracts will go through some sort of tendering process, this can be as basic as ringing round for quotes for something to start in a hurry, but this tends more to be at the taxi end of things than buses.

Local bus contracts are handled by county / unitary councils and PTEs (again, in London, it's TfL). There are some forms of bus service that can be operated with hackney carriage / private hire vehicles - this tends towards the rural / demand responsive sort of thing, but not exclusively so.

Anyone can ask to be sent copies of tender documentation, but there is likely to be some form of prequalification process (as above) before you're taken at all seriously. Councils are not allowed to 'discriminate' against specific operators / types of operators, but are allowed to have quality thresholds, and may legally not award contracts to any operator who doesn't hold the right licences.

Councils are under no obligation to give operator X a contract because he asks for one. The 1985 Transport Act (as amended) requires most contracts to go out to formal tender, although there can be emergency contracts (e.g. because an existing operator has ceased trading) and "de minimis" contracts (i.e. small value contracts that simply aren't worth the admin of a tender - although these tend to be small add-ons to existing commercial services.)

Tendering is not always "cheapest price for any old crud heap with a PSV licence" which tended to be many councils' interpretation of the 1985 Act in its early days. Councils can and often do have quality criteria, e.g. maximum vehicle age, emissions standards, and increasingly, low floor buses are specified as standard.

Contracts can be either on basis of operator keeps revenue and price per month from council is fixed; or on the basis that operator income each month is fixed, hence the operator gets tender price less on-bus revenue. In some cases, there can be a revenue sharing scheme which is somewhere between the two. On some tendered routes (e.g. evening services on what's otherwise a commercial route) the tendered operator is required to accept the daytime operator's return and / or multi journey tickets.

Fares will usually be set - either in detail, or in accordance with broad guidelines, by the council doing the tendering. Some sort of electronic ticket machine is usually required - in some cases this will be provided by the council, in other cases the operator is expected to supply this. Some councils do the publicity and maintain bus stops, others expect operators to do this.

Again, usually, operators provide and maintain the vehicle, employ staff and so on all as part of the costs they need to recoup via the tender price. Some councils have some contracts where they own vehicles and lease them to operators; some education / social services authorities employ passenger attendants who then get allocated to runs, some expect operators to employ such staff where needed.

Be aware that in any sort of contract environment, there will be penalties if an operator fails to run in accordance with the contract - this may be financial penalties (you're unlikely to get paid for any journeys you drop entirely) or it may be a 'penalty points' system - and the ultimate sanction is early termination of contract and being barred from re-bidding, either if you do something outrageous, or do something minor often enough.

Ultimately, it is important to read the contract conditions / specifications very carefully before quoting a price, and to allow a bit for 'contingencies' (e.g. dealing with breakdowns etc.)

Any contract is also really only as good as the early termination clause - there will usually be the right for either operator or council to give X period of notice, some councils terminate contracts and re-tender more frequently than others in the hope of driving costs down, and bearing in mind the financial pressure on local authorities at the moment, every year often brings the need to find 'savings' i.e. cuts which means that the bus contracts that have the worst value (using whatever criteria the council chooses) will get the chop.
 

northwichcat

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Any contract is also really only as good as the early termination clause - there will usually be the right for either operator or council to give X period of notice, some councils terminate contracts and re-tender more frequently than others in the hope of driving costs down, and bearing in mind the financial pressure on local authorities at the moment, every year often brings the need to find 'savings' i.e. cuts which means that the bus contracts that have the worst value (using whatever criteria the council chooses) will get the chop.

In the case of Cheshire East council they've asked operators of contracted services to consider running the service commercially. Some have gone on to do this (usually withdrawing some services in the process) but some of the ones who've done that have found the commercial service makes less than they hoped and go on to withdraw it. If the reduced level commercial service fails then the council only puts out an invitation to tender for the same level of service that was provided commercially (not the original higher contracted service level) meaning the number of contracted services is always lower than it was a few years ago, with the same number of operators competing for fewer services.
 

Mojo

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Bear in mind that most buses outside of London are not operated under contract to a local authority, but are operated commercially, subject to approval by the Traffic Commissioner. This is much easier (notwithstanding financial considerations) than operating services under contract.
 

harry42

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CatfordCat, thankyou so much for the detailed reply.

How would I go about getting a list of contracts from Nottingham City or County?
 

AndrewP

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CatfordCat, thankyou so much for the detailed reply.

How would I go about getting a list of contracts from Nottingham City or County?

I would expect them to be published in OJEU - http://simap.europa.eu/supplier/opportunities-in-europe/index_en.htm
where all public contracts above a certain value are published - I believe all public sector bus contracts have to be published in it. For smaller contracts they will almost certainly have a website.

Whenever I have procured service contracts, including buses, the decision has always been on value - quality and price - and not just price alone. In addition you will have to demonstrate that you are a credible bidder and have the ability and resources to deliver (i.e. you can't just bid and hope to buy a couple of buses on e-bay!)
 

CatfordCat

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CatfordCat, thankyou so much for the detailed reply.

How would I go about getting a list of contracts from Nottingham City or County?

I would suggest contacting the passenger transport bits of each council, and asking whether you need to contact the education and / or social services bits as well, or whether they handle contracts for those departments as well.

There's no set timetable for doing tendering - some councils do it pretty much on an 'as required' basis, others try to do a few tender exercises a year, and so on.

One other strand to this is that (for local bus services), tendering authorities are required to publish, after awarding contracts,

a) number of bids received
b) highest and lowest bids received
c) who they have awarded to and at what price

and they will usually include some explanation if they haven't awarded to the lowest bidder. Large operators will often put in option / multiple bids, e.g. "we can do contract A for this price, contract B for that price, or both for X price"; or "we can do contract A for this price, but if we run it 10 minutes later we can do it for that price instead"

councils' interpretation of "publish" varies - some put it on their websites, some will send it to anyone who asks.

There is no such requirement (this arises from the 1985 Transport Act) for education / social services contracts, but some councils do.

I would expect them to be published in OJEU - http://simap.europa.eu/supplier/opportunities-in-europe/index_en.htm
where all public contracts above a certain value are published - I believe all public sector bus contracts have to be published in it. For smaller contracts they will almost certainly have a website.

Not necessarily. It is questionable whether bus contracts where the operator keeps the revenue count as "service contracts" under EU law or whether they count as "service concessions" which don't have to go through the OJEU process. Some councils don't.

Many councils will advertise in the trade and / or local press when they are about to do a tender exercise, some councils have a 'tender list' which means operators contact them once, maybe provide some information, and maybe renew their interest every so often, and if you're on this list you get appropriate tenders sent you. Again, it's far simpler to talk to the relevant councils first.

In addition you will have to demonstrate that you are a credible bidder and have the ability and resources to deliver (i.e. you can't just bid and hope to buy a couple of buses on e-bay!)

Indeed. If you don't currently have the operator's licence (it's unclear from previous posts whether you do) then you're very unlikely to get a contract awarded to you, as the council won't want to take the risk that you won't manage to get licences / premises / vehicles / maintenance agreements / staff sorted out in time for the contract to start.

Having said that, a council should not discriminate against smaller operators who might need to purchase maybe one additional vehicle to take a contract on.

(You may have guessed that I've been involved in this sort of thing from both sides of the fence, but should make it clear I'm not offering legal advice here and anything I say comes with all the standard guarantees of anything said on interweb discussion forums.)
 
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34D

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CatfordCat, thankyou so much for the detailed reply.

How would I go about getting a list of contracts from Nottingham City or County?

Before you contact anyone, please give it some thought.

We have no idea who people are on here, however I would advise against contacting them unless you have not only the O licences but also the money to go out and buy two optare solos of say 5/6 years of age (euro 4).

If you are just wanting the information for enthusiast curiosity then please don't waste the time of busy people
 

WatcherZero

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Also as a note you can have services that are partially tendered and partially commercial such as a council paying for a existing commercial route to divert around an unserved housing estate or a bus company adding on a purely commercial section to route tender they won. You can also have a route that operates commercially during the day but the council subsides an operator to run services earlier in the morning and later at night or at weekends which wouldnt be possible purely commercially at those times of day.
 
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northwichcat

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You can also get long contracted services which get support from multiple parties e.g. the 130 Macclesfield to Manchester service, which reduces the number of available contracts over say separate Macclesfield to Wilmslow and Wilmslow to Manchester contract.
 
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