Bus deregulation - 25 years on

[yorksrob]

Well people not using the buses would be an issue, yes many people do use cars as they are convenient but is there any evidence that they would change to bus if a London style service was provided? If the buses had never been deregulated to start with then people may well have continued using them but it's not as easy to get people out of their cars once they are in them.

As I mentioned earlier on, all public transport has experienced increased demand - except de-regulated buses. The rest of the country has been experiencing increasing fuel prices, congestion and (up until recently) an economic boom just like London has. There is no reason to suggest that a regulated bus service wouldn't attract increasing numbers of passengers elsewhere.

 

[shinkansen1966]

it's not as easy to get people out of their cars once they are in them.

Agreed.

One way to encourage a shift from car to public transport is to use the same pricing methods for private and public transport.

So you'd scrap the road tax and reduce/srap fuel duty. Then replace the lost revenue by introducing road pricing based on time of day and road travelled. Say 10p to drive length of rural Wales at 23:00 on a Wednesday night, but £30 to drive along the M25 on a Monday morning. The technology could be hard work. You'd fit all cars with a GPS device with a meter charging them as they drove along. The meter would charge according to congestion on that part of the road.

 

[Zoe]

Then replace the lost revenue by introducing road pricing based on time of day and road travelled. Say 10p to drive length of rural Wales at 23:00 on a Wednesday night, but £30 to drive along the M25 on a Monday morning. The technology could be hard work. You'd fit all cars with a GPS device with a meter charging them as they drove along. The meter would charge according to congestion on that part of the road.

I don't agree with this due to the privacy issues of having all cars tracked. It would also result in rich people still driving and having nice quiet roads all to themselves.

 

[shinkansen1966]

....privacy issues ...

Just like registered Oyster cards. And every time I use my credit card and my registered TOC web site account to buy a rail ticket. And when I travel on a plane.

It would also result in rich people still driving and having nice quiet roads all to themselves.

'Quiet all to themselves' Sounds like the current situation in first class on many trains.

 

[richw]

I don't agree with this due to the privacy issues of having all cars tracked. It would also result in rich people still driving and having nice quiet roads all to themselves.

Mines tracked already, brought my insurance down considerably. I just log into the tracker providers website and it gives a location of where my car is. At the moment it is showing as parked on my driveway, so that is good news as It means my wife has taken her own car, and isn't driving mine.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Mines tracked already, brought my insurance down considerably. I just log into the tracker providers website and it gives a location of where my car is. At the moment it is showing as parked on my driveway, so that is good news as It means my wife has taken her own car, and isn't driving mine.

I think car tracking devices are likely to increase in use.

I'd heard of a company in the US that rents cars equipped with tracking devices. They can check you are sticking to the terms of the hire agreement (eg not taking the rented vehicle over the border into Mexico). It didn't stop there, because once they knew where you were driving, third party companies could then contact you based on the hotels, restaurants and attraction you'd driven by and would consider visiting.

 

[cainebj]

So you'd scrap the road tax and reduce/srap fuel duty. Then replace the lost revenue by introducing road pricing based on time of day and road travelled. Say 10p to drive length of rural Wales at 23:00 on a Wednesday night, but £30 to drive along the M25 on a Monday morning. The technology could be hard work. You'd fit all cars with a GPS device with a meter charging them as they drove along. The meter would charge according to congestion on that part of the road.

Just like pay-as-you-drive car insurance, except with that, you'd still pay approximately 30% of what you would normally be quoted for your 12 months, then just pay insurance as and when you drive, different prices per mile depending on roads and time of day.

 

[Statto]

The idea behind D-Reg was that you have competition with small operators like Nottingham/Oxford & Edinburgh but companies now have a virtual monopoly in most areas, anyone who starts competing against the big groups, the big groups respond, normally end up driving the small operator out of business with 4, 5 dominant groups.

 

[ivanhoe]

The idea behind D-Reg was that you have competition with small operators like Nottingham/Oxford & Edinburgh but companies now have a virtual monopoly in most areas, anyone who starts competing against the big groups, the big groups respond, normally end up driving the small operator out of business with 4, 5 dominant groups.

Just like Ribble, Crosville, Midland Red etc did in the 1930's etc. No change here then and eventually the above three were all nationalised to become NBC. It is argued that nationalisation saved them from either bankruptcy or serverely scaled down services. What D Reg has told us that buses running in areas where car ownership is low, tend to be frequent , but not keenly priced. D Reg has shown that these routes effectively subsidise less popular routes and you could argue that poorer areas are paying for buses in more affluent areas, so that the operator can maintain a presence. This was always the case in times before D Reg, but one could argue that the fares were capped by local authorities , where they owned the bus company. It's amazing how much ITA's (PTE's) actually subsidize routes. They are invariably early morning ,evening routes or Sunday routes. The big 4 are very good at milking the system, but so were NBC!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Bus deregulation just didn't destroy local networks with a semblence of local control (in particular with regard to municipal undertakings) but it also led to a loss of local identity to many places. There was an element of pride in the local 'corpy' buses and each town and city had it's own livery which defined it from other places. Now we just have half a dozen large concerns imposing their corporate style on everywhere and forcing any competitors off the road. Newcastle had it's distinctive yellow and Glasgow green and orange.... and Accrington's local buses were an unusual red & blue which was in honour of the Accrington pals regiment from the first world war. Now we have hideous corporate liveries from Stagecoach, First and Arriva dominating most towns and cities up and down the country. Of course once again London was an exception as we can't upset the capital by having it's streets festooned with garish coloured buses.

 

[Greenback]

Has anyone suggested that bus deregulation has been a success yet?

 

[Zoe]

Has anyone suggested that bus deregulation has been a success yet?

Not here but I had a conversation elewhere with a person in Newcastle that said that the deregulation had very much improved things by giving more choice.

 

[Greenback]

Ah, there's always one!

 

[Mojo]

I read an article somewhere recently about how proper urban bus routes in Milton Keynes didn't really get started until deregulation.

 

[martinsh]

and Accrington's local buses were an unusual red & blue which was in honour of the Accrington pals regiment from the first world war. Now we have hideous corporate liveries from Stagecoach, First and Arriva dominating most towns and cities up and down the country. .

and buses in Accrington are STILL red and blue (amongst other colours) - what is your point ?

 

[W-on-Sea]

I'd say deregulation has encouraged innovation and a user-friendly approach/ responsiveness to customer demand (all of which NBC cos generally lacked) in a very limited number of cases-the interconnected Stagecoach network of X routes between Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee + Fife is one, Stagecoach Gold will hopefully endure + prove to be another. But these are both premium, untypical products. FTR might, perhaps, fit here, but not really sure if it's really a success.

Plus a few -and it really is a few- high quality independent operators have done well-Ensignbus being a good example.

But these really are the exceptions. In most regards deregulation has been a disaster, both for buses + for any chance of integrated public transport networks (or ticketing)

 

[Mutant Lemming]

and buses in Accrington are STILL red and blue (amongst other colours) - what is your point ?

Can't say I saw any Blue & Red buses there on Monday. The red & blue buses gave a sense of idnetity - they belonged to the town. You know... like London buses being red ? It was deemed important enough to keep the 'iconic' London bus red but not to retain anyone else's local identity. Even if they weren't that well run people felt that they were 'their' buses. People knew they were home once they encountered the familiar local buses. Like everything else these days a corporate mafia want to own and run everything. You may like living in identikit towns were everything is the same but I prefer a bit of individuality and character and the municipally run bus services in our towns and cities were a little piece of that local identity.

 

[markydh]

Not here but I had a conversation elewhere with a person in Newcastle that said that the deregulation had very much improved things by giving more choice.

Who on earth said that? Whoever it was was speaking total bs! The 'Big 3' around these parts, apart from a small number of exceptions more down to the fact they share the same road for part of a route, stay very much to their own patches. Stagecoach dominate the 'city' routes in Newcastle, along with many areas of South Shields, Sunderland, Hartlepool and Middlesbrough. Go North East have a near monopoly on routes in Gateshead, North and West County Durham and South West Northumberland, as well as being the dominant operator in East Durham. Arriva have a near monopoly in South East and Mid-Northumberland, as well as large swathes of rural Teesside and Southern areas of County Durham. What little direct competition there has been between the 3 hasn't lasted long (and in the case of th last 'event' between GNE and Arriva resulted in them engaging in the competition ending depot-swap when GNE took on Arriva's Hexham depot with Arriva taking over GNE's Ashington base).

 

[martinsh]

Can't say I saw any Blue & Red buses there on Monday.

Sorry it's been a couple of years since I was last in Accrington. Have M & M Coaches (Hyndburn Hopper) changes their livery then ? They are definitely still running according to Lancashire CC.

Hmm, they appear to be allover red these days - believe me they were red and blue until recently.

I agree weith your point, I just think you picked a very bad example. You will struggle to find any vehicles of the "big 3" operators in Accrington !

 

[shinkansen1966]

You can be sure that deregulated buses will stay in Scotland, regardless of the discussions north of the border on future statehood.

Stagecoach owner, Brian Souter has denoted money to the SNP.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Have M & M Coaches (Hyndburn Hopper) changes their livery then ?

I caught a number 60 from Great Harwood in to 'Accy' on Monday (only as it turned up first) and that was all red.

 

[317 forever]

Another retrograde step in recent years has been a "two-tier" bus service. Some big groups, most notably First and Arriva, have taken over independents but then dumped the less profitable routes. In some cases these have been taken up by remaining independents, but in other cases the routes have only continued following tendering by Councils in the area. So, in areas like Cornwall, Norfolk, Surrey and Cheshire, we have the most profitable routes run by First or Arriva, and marginal routes run by independents. In several such cases, the lack of integrated multi-operator ticketing is disadvantageous to passengers.

Stagecoach and Go-Ahead have been better at maintaining integrated networks, with the exception of Go-Ahead Wilts & Dorset.