Bus operators decide to have additional Bank Holiday

[carlberry]

What is the procedure for bus operators running a non-standard service over Christmas? Do they have to give the Traffic Commissioners the usual 42 days notice of the intention to run (say) a Saturday service but without the evening journeys on 31 December, or not to operate the usual Public Holiday service on Boxing Day?

Or is it custom and practice that operators are not expected to run services on Boxing Day - much as they can if they choose to - and are allowed to go to Saturday schedules on the weekdays between Christmas and New Year?

If the latter, might the Traffic Commissioners consider - in particular - that Brylaine's decision not to operate any services on Sat 2 Jan is a failure to operate in accordance with the registration?

The details that are shown on the VOSA site tend to refer to the actions on bank holidays, Christmas and new year. I'm not aware of any that specify reduced services between Christmas and New year, however they can easily do a short term change to cover that, and it wouldnt be obvious from what's published as to what the change was. Lots of additional services are registered on VOSA for Boxing day/New Years day, especially in Scotland (Lothian often do this) to cover additions to what was registered. Not operating on the 2nd Jan (which isnt a bank holiday or lieu bank holiday etc) would appear to require a change to be registered however.

 

[Antman]

Why is no one complaining about the lack of trains?

They are on the appropriate section

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Without actually trialing a service no-one knows if the service would be loss making or profitable. Like I said earlier in the thread some Bank Holiday services operated by Northern Rail in my area are crowded so a BH doesn't automatically equal low demand.

The "build it and they will come" scenario.... bus companies DO undertake trial operations but I can point to many a scenario in a rural/inter-urban area like Cheshire East where just because a service has a commercial hourly or half hourly Mon to Sat service, it won't stand a Sunday or Bank Holiday service.

Yeovil (which is nearly as big as Macclesfield) has no Sunday services - try that one out!!

 

[455driver]

Well clearly there is plenty of demand, certainly in London. People may want to visit relatives and why should those unfortunate enough to be hospitalised on Christmas Day be denied visitors because they can't get there? So there should be some sort of service running and yes I used to be a bus driver and yes I would have been prepared to work Christmas Day.

Why cant they get there?
Most people have cars etc and if push cones to shove get a taxi, they are nearly always self employed so choose to work, a bit different from people being forced to work.

Anyone would think the only way to get round was on buses/trains!
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If there are not enough volunteers (although I suspect there would be) then it would have to be compulsory and it's hardly a needless luxury.

You volunteering to work on Christmas day next year then?
No thought not!

 

[MedwayValiant]

Not operating on the 2nd Jan (which isnt a bank holiday or lieu bank holiday etc) would appear to require a change to be registered however.

Thanks carl.

Actually, that causes a thought into my head. Lincolnshire County Council should perhaps have put out one day contracts for at least some of the Brylaine routes which won't run on this day.

Route 5 (Boston - Lincoln) is the most obvious one. The CallConnect (demand responsive) services which normally connect with it are all operating on 2 Jan - and since Lincs CC funds those, it can't really argue that there isn't a social need for the main service. The service is normally hourly, but a one day contract for a two-hourly service would only need two vehicles and wouldn't be desperately expensive.

My guess is that Stagecoach would have taken it on, and used one vehicle from Lincoln and one from Peterborough. The latter could perhaps have run in service between Spalding and Boston as well, in partial replacement of another Brylaine service which won't be operating.

 

[BestWestern]

You've lost me..........what law is the Government currently passing which render thousands of perfectly serviceable vehicles illegal ???

Are you getting confused with the DDA issues affecting single deck buses which take effect from tonight ? - if so that Act was passed 15 years ago !!.

My apologies, it was a very sweeping generalisation (for those who aren't as 'into' the ins and outs of the industry as some).

My point was that currently there are many vehicles being withdrawn from service due to legislation, and that process will continue to bite when it is the turn of double deckers to go. While the likes of First, Stagecoach etc can finance squadrons of shiny (and rattly) new vehicles and seamlessly replace their existing stock, small operators in many cases cannot. There is no 'Plan B' if the law makes your fleet unusable.

Poor on the technical details, I concede!

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Thanks carl.

Actually, that causes a thought into my head. Lincolnshire County Council should perhaps have put out one day contracts for at least some of the Brylaine routes which won't run on this day.

Route 5 (Boston - Lincoln) is the most obvious one. The CallConnect (demand responsive) services which normally connect with it are all operating on 2 Jan - and since Lincs CC funds those, it can't really argue that there isn't a social need for the main service. The service is normally hourly, but a one day contract for a two-hourly service would only need two vehicles and wouldn't be desperately expensive.

My guess is that Stagecoach would have taken it on, and used one vehicle from Lincoln and one from Peterborough. The latter could perhaps have run in service between Spalding and Boston as well, in partial replacement of another Brylaine service which won't be operating.

Though I suppose if call connect is available that would provide the links for any journey where regular bus services are not available. Would be interesting to see how they would react to a Boston to Lincoln booking!

Grayscroft of Mablethorpe also suspend their service network (one main route) for the whole period between Christmas & New Year in response to Carlberry posting.

 

[northwichcat]

The "build it and they will come" scenario.... bus companies DO undertake trial operations but I can point to many a scenario in a rural/inter-urban area like Cheshire East where just because a service has a commercial hourly or half hourly Mon to Sat service, it won't stand a Sunday or Bank Holiday service.

Yeovil (which is nearly as big as Macclesfield) has no Sunday services - try that one out!!

A quick Google gives Yeovil's population as 40000 compared to 52000 for Macclesfield so it isn't that close.

Population figures don't always relate to public transport use. Look how high railway usage is in Poynton - it's a healthy figure for the size of the town and frequency of service but then compare it to Knutsford and it makes it look like hardly anyone in Poynton uses the train.

 

[CD]

A quick Google gives Yeovil's population as 40000 compared to 52000 for Macclesfield so it isn't that close.

Population figures don't always relate to public transport use. Look how high railway usage is in Poynton - it's a healthy figure for the size of the town and frequency of service but then compare it to Knutsford and it makes it look like hardly anyone in Poynton uses the train.

In 8 days over the Xmas/New Year period, Yeovil has buses on 3 days only !!!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A quick Google gives Yeovil's population as 40000 compared to 52000 for Macclesfield so it isn't that close.

Population figures don't always relate to public transport use. Look how high railway usage is in Poynton - it's a healthy figure for the size of the town and frequency of service but then compare it to Knutsford and it makes it look like hardly anyone in Poynton uses the train.

Yep but does Macc have Sunday bus services and a main rail station in the centre of town? Yeovil doesn't

 

[Ianigsy]

I'd just like to point out that it's not just hospital visiting which is an issue on Christmas Day and Boxing Day- I have a friend who is awaiting a kidney transplant and currently dialyses in hospital every 48 hours. This year a patient transport ambulance was available, but if it hadn't been, he might have had to go into hospital for the whole break having only just come out after several months stabilising other health issues.

 

[BestWestern]

I'd just like to point out that it's not just hospital visiting which is an issue on Christmas Day and Boxing Day- I have a friend who is awaiting a kidney transplant and currently dialyses in hospital every 48 hours. This year a patient transport ambulance was available, but if it hadn't been, he might have had to go into hospital for the whole break having only just come out after several months stabilising other health issues.

That's a grotty situation, and I wish your friend well - but it demonstrates exactly the sort of marginal user groups for whom Christmas Day public transport is a consideration. Again, sadly this won't sustain a service.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Wouldn't PT have come out to him anyway?

 

[northwichcat]

Yep but does Macc have Sunday bus services and a main rail station in the centre of town? Yeovil doesn't

Macclesfield does have some services on Sundays, although the service I would have to catch to get to Macclesfield only runs Mon-Sat (commercially.)

Like I said in my earlier post population isn't always proportional to demand for public transport. There's a lot of demand for long distance rail travel from various towns and villages in Cheshire and with Macclesfield and Wilmslow being on the WCML they are ideally placed for long distance services to call there and to act as regional hubs. As you say Yeovil has no station in the middle of the town so there's no need for people in surrounding towns and villages to get a bus to Yeovil for the train service.

 

[Antman]

Why cant they get there?
Most people have cars etc and if push cones to shove get a taxi, they are nearly always self employed so choose to work, a bit different from people being forced to work.

Anyone would think the only way to get round was on buses/trains!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You volunteering to work on Christmas day next year then?
No thought not!

Well you thought wrong then didn't you? I said previously that when I was on the buses I'd have been happy to work Christmas Day.

And no not everybody has a car and not everybody can afford taxi's but obviously they don't matter as far as you're concerned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd just like to point out that it's not just hospital visiting which is an issue on Christmas Day and Boxing Day- I have a friend who is awaiting a kidney transplant and currently dialyses in hospital every 48 hours. This year a patient transport ambulance was available, but if it hadn't been, he might have had to go into hospital for the whole break having only just come out after several months stabilising other health issues.

That's a very good point and I'm sure there are a lot of people who need to get to hospital on Christmas Day, including staff!

 

[455driver]

Well you thought wrong then didn't you? I said previously that when I was on the buses I'd have been happy to work Christmas Day.

As would I before I had a family, in fact many years ago the bus company I worked for decided to run a service on Boxing Day running hourly joining Wakefield to Bradford, Leeds, Pontefract etc and I volunteered to work, talk about a waste of time!
Now I have a family, there is no chance of me working voluntarily or not!

And no not everybody has a car and not everybody can afford taxi's but obviously they don't matter as far as you're concerned.

But I bet they can afford all the latest gadgets etc! :roll:


Oh if I was booked to work today I would be working for normal rate, I wanted to take some stuff down the tip but of course its shut isn't it! :roll:
Every other bank holiday (except Christmas and Boxing days) if I am booked to work then I work for normal rate but people (who no doubt enjoy all the other bank holidays off as well) begrudge us these two days when all they can come up with for a reason for trains to run is the odd person needing to visit someone in hospital or the few people without cars, and I cant see those filling a train up any time soon!

 

[Antman]

As would I before I had a family, in fact many years ago the bus company I worked for decided to run a service on Boxing Day running hourly joining Wakefield to Bradford, Leeds, Pontefract etc and I volunteered to work, talk about a waste of time!
Now I have a family, there is no chance of me working voluntarily or not!



But I bet they can afford all the latest gadgets etc! :roll:


Oh if I was booked to work today I would be working for normal rate, I wanted to take some stuff down the tip but of course its shut isn't it! :roll:
Every other bank holiday (except Christmas and Boxing days) if I am booked to work then I work for normal rate but people (who no doubt enjoy all the other bank holidays off as well) begrudge us these two days when all they can come up with for a reason for trains to run is the odd person needing to visit someone in hospital or the few people without ca and I cant see those filling a train up any time soon!

When my kids were younger I might have been less willing to work Christmas Day but if I had too it wouldn't have been the end of the world just like other people who have to work. A bloke I know who is a security guard said to me "I can sit at home Christmas Day bored to tears or I can be at work bored to tears on double time, no brainer really"!

I was talking about buses, mainly in London, rather than trains but then again the Paris metro operates on Christmas Day

 

[455driver]

I was talking about buses, mainly in London, rather than trains but then again the Paris metro operates on Christmas Day

London is a bit unique simply because of the amount of public transport available renders owning a car pretty pointless, so I can see how it could support a skeleton service, there might be 2 or 3 other Cities in the same situation but for the vast majority of Cities it would cost a lot for very little income, and as they are businesses now they wont stand the losses involved!

 

[northwichcat]

But I bet they can afford all the latest gadgets etc! :roll:

My current mobile which I purchased (opposing to acquiring as part of a contract) costed around the same as 4 x single trips by taxi to the local hospital or airport would (either journey costs around £25 each way.) My phone is under a 2 year guarantee so that gives me a minimum of 731 days usage and it's likely it'll last longer than that and if I choose to replace it before it breaks I can sell it or get a trade in value, so in comparison taxis offer extremely poor value for money.

I wouldn't say I can't ever afford a taxi more that I'm not willing to pay that much to make a circa 10 mile journey unless it's absolutely essential. However, if I had to make a regular journey by taxi and had to pay £25 each time then I might not be able to afford it but in that case the comparison to gadgets is invalid as the taxi trips would cost more than a second hand car and insurance.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why is no one complaining about the lack of trains?

1. They won't be on the bus forum.

2. The trains were running nearly a full weekday service on New Year's Day (except Northern in the North East, of course :roll, but there were no bus services at all. That is ludicrous.

FWIW I'd say there should be no service on Christmas Day, a skeleton service on Boxing Day, and a full Bank Holiday service on all other Bank Holidays (including NYD).

Bus services in Tyne and Wear (leaving aside Arriva) are now pretty good over Christmas. They were even running a Saturday service on the 27th up here.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

1. They won't be on the bus forum.

2. The trains were running nearly a full weekday service on New Year's Day (except Northern in the North East, of course :roll, but there were no bus services at all. That is ludicrous.

FWIW I'd say there should be no service on Christmas Day, a skeleton service on Boxing Day, and a full Bank Holiday service on all other Bank Holidays (including NYD).

Bus services in Tyne and Wear (leaving aside Arriva) are now pretty good over Christmas. They were even running a Saturday service on the 27th up here.

For my two penneth....

Christmas Day outside the capital - I'd like to see it kept special

Boxing Day - it is the main shopping day (much as it seems ludicrous - how much shopping do you need to do) and I agree that Arriva seem to be out of step in the North East. How a service from Blyth to Newcastle (for example) isn't run is beyond me. Then again, you have Teesside (rough population c.375k according to Wikipedia) with nothing.....

New Years Day - in many areas, it probably doesn't demand a bank holiday service. A lot of the shopping is done by then and the morning will be very quiet. Perhaps some sort of skeletal service starting 1000 but only on selected routes?

I was in Bournemouth on NYD and my unscientific observations were that the main More route did reasonable trade but the RATP routes were more lightly loaded.

 

[Hophead]

FWIW I'd say there should be no service on Christmas Day, a skeleton service on Boxing Day, and a full Bank Holiday service on all other Bank Holidays (including NYD).

Well, that's pretty much what we had (in so far as Bank Holiday service = Sunday service and so 27th & 28th had Sunday services).