Bus route numbers

[DavidGrain]

The 99 never became the 241, it was the 244.
The 99 used to go all the way to Birmingham City Centre. It was split in 2017 with Birmingham to QE via University being covered by the existing 98 and rerouted X64, with QE to Halesowen being covered by the 244.

Today following service reviews last year what was the 99, is now the Platinum X20/X21/X22 from Birmingham City Centre to University Of Birmingham/QE Hospital (which then continues to Cofton Hackett/Woodcock Hill/Woodgate), a much improved service for that section and 19 from the QE to Halesowen which then continues onto Dudley.

241 was the old Dudley to Halesowen route.

Before the 99 it was the 636 as well, it was renumbered to 99 when the 98 was introduced initially in 2012 on the Birmingham to QE/University section.

Thanks for the correction. I think the 241 is now the 14

 

[Statto]

No. Each destination had one route number. I think 20-24 were one direction and 25-29 the other.

I see, was still an odd system though, for example the 21 could return from 25 to 29, now it's much more simpler.

 

[318266]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the trend of Airport services having 7x7 numbers, obviously referencing Boeing's Aircraft range. x00 numbers are also common for Airport routes.

A good example of this is Glasgow Airport's buses to Paisley/Clydebank (McGills) and to Glasgow (First)
First use 500 on their every 10-minute premium express service (i.e. a rip-off) and 77 on their slower, half-hourly service (used to be 747, never knew why they changed it).
McGills use 757 on their Paisley to Glasgow Airport route (alternate journeys to Clydebank).

McGills also use an area scheme for their numbers: xx/1xx in Renfrewshire, 2xx in the Monklands, 5xx in Inverclyde, 8xx on Larkfield Depot runs, and 9xx on their ClydeFlyer.

 

[geoffk]

Trent renumbered some corridors with decimal points, e.g. the Derby to Bakewell corridor became the 6.1, 6.2 etc (rather than 61/62 etc)

My dad didn't like decimals; he couldn't see the point!

 

[cnjb8]

My dad didn't like decimals; he couldn't see the point!

You need to go to the punitentiary
Trents Threes has an A B and C instead of 3A 3b and 3c. I think it's quite odd. But I do find it easier to remember a brand rather than a number.

 

[SCH117X]

Yep, wasn't the Mainline system, odd numbers northbound, even numbers southbound[or vice versa], it could be really confusing if you were visiting the area & didn't know the routes had a different number on the return service, now it's straight forward.

Something similar Blazefield also did in Harrogate for a while from the mid 1990s. The marketing was that the then two Knaresborough via Starbeck services (1 and 2) would extend to the Jennyfield Estate replacing route 7. Snag was outside the am peak their were six 1s and 2s and only 4 7s so two services instead continued to the Bilton Estate as a B1 or B1A (one went round the loop in the estate in the opposite direction to the other) and entering the loop were supposed to change to a 1 or 2. Confusion was further enhanced by drivers not changing the number, once saw a B1A on the former route 7. They altered it by adding 100 to all local services except those going to or from Bilton which were renumbered in the 200 series, the dual direction working round the loop being withdrawn and consequently a 1 to or from Knaresborough was now either a 101 (to/from Jennyfield) or a 201 (to/from Bilton) which seems to work okay until traffic congestion resulted in cross town workings being axed. Today the services adopt the main route-suffix system with Knaresborough now having a 1A, 1B and 1C and the two Bilton services that exist today as 2A and 2B. The Jennyfield route is 3 but with new housing developments is scheduled at some future date to be split into two routes.

 

[43055]

My dad didn't like decimals; he couldn't see the point!

Even some of the drivers just call them six one, six two ect. Strangely the 6.X has recently become just 6X for some reason.

You need to go to the punitentiary
Trents Threes has an A B and C instead of 3A 3b and 3c. I think it's quite odd. But I do find it easier to remember a brand rather than a number.

It certainly is and individual livery's do help as well like Trent. The brands do stick well as a few people still think the V3 is part of the villager but they got separated late last year.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Something similar Blazefield also did in Harrogate for a while from the mid 1990s. The marketing was that the then two Knaresborough via Starbeck services (1 and 2) would extend to the Jennyfield Estate replacing route 7. Snag was outside the am peak their were six 1s and 2s and only 4 7s so two services instead continued to the Bilton Estate as a B1 or B1A (one went round the loop in the estate in the opposite direction to the other) and entering the loop were supposed to change to a 1 or 2. Confusion was further enhanced by drivers not changing the number, once saw a B1A on the former route 7. They altered it by adding 100 to all local services except those going to or from Bilton which were renumbered in the 200 series, the dual direction working round the loop being withdrawn and consequently a 1 to or from Knaresborough was now either a 101 (to/from Jennyfield) or a 201 (to/from Bilton) which seems to work okay until traffic congestion resulted in cross town workings being axed. Today the services adopt the main route-suffix system with Knaresborough now having a 1A, 1B and 1C and the two Bilton services that exist today as 2A and 2B. The Jennyfield route is 3 but with new housing developments is scheduled at some future date to be split into two routes.

Had a little check of my records from 30 years ago (mainly about the 6/36/X36) but noticed I’d had a trip elsewhere. I’d forgotten the Harrogate locals were used to be lettered rather than numbered.

Jennyfield was the A and apparently the Knaresborough and Eastfield Route was E (with Iveco Turbo Daily).

 

[Typhoon]

National Express West Midlands have been mentioned a couple of times. I have lived in my present house for 3 1/2 years and one of my local buses in that time has been successively 99, 241 and now 19.

The 99 used to go all the way to Birmingham City Centre. It was split in 2017 with Birmingham to QE via University being covered by the existing 98 and rerouted X64, with QE to Halesowen being covered by the 244.

Today following service reviews last year what was the 99, is now the Platinum X20/X21/X22 from Birmingham City Centre to University Of Birmingham/QE Hospital (which then continues to Cofton Hackett/Woodcock Hill/Woodgate), ...

Before the 99 it was the 636 as well, it was renumbered to 99 when the 98 was introduced initially in 2012 on the Birmingham to QE/University section.

Is it any surprise that potential passengers lose track. The 99 I remember went off towards Chelmsley like most of the rest of the 90s. And many moons ago I am reasonably confident it was used for an express service worked by single deckers. Someone should update the book on Birmingham bus routes, I reckon there must have been more changes in the last dozen years than in the previous half century.

 

[Ken H]

No. Each destination had one route number. I think 20-24 were one direction and 25-29 the other.

leeds trams had the number as the destination

so for instance, 4 was Kirkstall and 22 was Temple Newsham

so a Kirkstall - Temple Newsham tram would display 22
but on the return it would display a 4
So trams on the same route going in opposite directions would have different numbers. *
Trams ending their journey at the city centre would show no number or would 'cross blind', showing the bottom of one number and the top of another.

Is this similar?

*I have no idea about what destinations were paired. the 4/22 combination I made up!

 

[DavidGrain]

Is it any surprise that potential passengers lose track. ...... Someone should update the book on Birmingham bus routes, I reckon there must have been more changes in the last dozen years than in the previous half century.

I agree but numbers might still be changing. A route near where I used to live was the 3A (which itself was an extension of the 3 which was no longer used). Then it became the 103 because it did a city centre loop so they wanted to put all the loop services in the 100 series. If they had taken this to its ultimate conclusion. half the routes in Birmingham would have been in the 100 series and clashed with the ex Midland Red routes which WMPTE had taken over. Now it is the 24.

When WMPTE was set up the ex Birmingham Corporation routes and the ex Midland Red routes retained their numbers. The ex West Bromwich Corporation services had 400 added to their numbers. I may not have remembered this correctly, but I think the ex Walsall Corporation had 300 added and the ex Wolverhampton Corporation had 500 added. The 600s were new minibus routes running round local residential areas. I am not sure about the 700s. The 800s were school buses and I think some still exist. 900s were express routes with new buses supposedly with more luxurious seating.

Coventry Corporation which was a later addition to WMPTE never got their numbers changed but with the ex Midland Red 159 renumbered as the 900, there was no overlap.

In the last five years there has be a wholesale renumbering of the routes and changes in route so that now every town in the West Midlands former metropolitan county now has their own routes in single and double figures resulting in many duplications across the area served now by National Express.

 

[PeterC]

With regard to 7x7 numbering for airport services, the earliest expample that I have seen was by London Transport when they introduced an express Green Line service from Watford Junction to Heathrow. The only Green Line map that I have from that period is 1967 by which time the 727 was running from Luton station (but not the airport) to Watford, Heathrow, Gatwick and Crawley (for the depot?). I always assumed that the numbering was to associate it with the latest airliner at the time, the Boeing 727.

All Green Line routes were numbered in the 700 series.

 

[SCH117X]

Had a little check of my records from 30 years ago (mainly about the 6/36/X36) but noticed I’d had a trip elsewhere. I’d forgotten the Harrogate locals were used to be lettered rather than numbered.

Jennyfield was the A and apparently the Knaresborough and Eastfield Route was E (with Iveco Turbo Daily).

and known as Hoppas - was a complete farce on the busy routes as passenger were left at stops due to them being full up. Seemed to me that nearly every road a Hoppa could fit down had a least an hourly service. At the time Harrogate Independent Travel "Challenger", which had been set in Jan 1987 up by redundant WYRCC employees, ran competing services on many of the routes albeit properly numbered (as with the 6 on the northern part of the 36 route). They basically ended up in the same ownership when the AJS Group acquired a controlling interest in April 1989 which saw the services split up between the two operators - "Challenger" taking full control of the Jennyfield service. It was not until November 1993 under Blazefield that the "Challenger" fleet and services started to merge into Harrogate & District.

 

[Tom B]

Although the routes themselves weren't too confusing, there was a time when practically every Rotherham route was interworked - few buses would reach a terminus and leave on the same service number. Naturally any disruption meant that the whole thing unravelled rapidly.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

and known as Hoppas - was a complete farce on the busy routes as passenger were left at stops due to them being full up. Seemed to me that nearly every road a Hoppa could fit down had a least an hourly service. At the time Harrogate Independent Travel "Challenger", which had been set in Jan 1987 up by redundant WYRCC employees, ran competing services on many of the routes albeit properly numbered (as with the 6 on the northern part of the 36 route). They basically ended up in the same ownership when the AJS Group acquired a controlling interest in April 1989 which saw the services split up between the two operators - "Challenger" taking full control of the Jennyfield service. It was not until November 1993 under Blazefield that the "Challenger" fleet and services started to merge into Harrogate & District.

I do remember the Hoppas in their original sky blue livery and then in red and cream. Just not that the services were lettered rather than numbered!!!

As for the battle for the Ripon to Harrogate service....The regular 36 ran at **45 from Ripon to Harrogate and **00 from Harrogate to Ripon using WY Olympians whilst United had a couple of late model VRs. Challenger set up the 6 with (I think) some Dodge S56s and ran opposite timing - that is **15 from Ripon and **30 from Harrogate; they later used some Leyland Swifts with Reeve Burgess bodies!

United then registered the X36 at **05 from Ripon and **35 from Harrogate - as you mentioned before, they omitted Ripley and went via Ripon Road, quicker so they could get in from of the Challenger (theoretically) using one vehicle back and forth but they couldn't keep to time. So the X36 was simply integrated into all the other Ripon boards so anything could appear on it. Nothing better than an LH on a fast express on a winters morning!!

 

[Typhoon]

When WMPTE was set up the ex Birmingham Corporation routes and the ex Midland Red routes retained their numbers. The ex West Bromwich Corporation services had 400 added to their numbers. I may not have remembered this correctly, but I think the ex Walsall Corporation had 300 added and the ex Wolverhampton Corporation had 500 added. The 600s were new minibus routes running round local residential areas. I am not sure about the 700s. The 800s were school buses and I think some still exist. 900s were express routes with new buses supposedly with more luxurious seating.

You are right about the renumbering. The 600s and 900s were later, 900s called 'Timesaver'. I think some Midland Red routes dropped their 'B' prefix - Dudley Road routes were affected.

Coventry Corporation which was a later addition to WMPTE never got their numbers changed but with the ex Midland Red 159 renumbered as the 900, there was no overlap.

No need to change, no real overlap except for the 159 which fitted with the pattern. You can travel between Birmingham, Sandwell and Dudley in places without obviously crossing the border from one to another, not so Coventry. Also I'm not sure that the number blinds on all Coventry buses could show 3 figure numbers.

A route near where I used to live was the 3A ... Then it became the 103 because it did a city centre loop so they wanted to put all the loop services in the 100 series. If they had taken this to its ultimate conclusion. half the routes in Birmingham would have been in the 100 series and clashed with the ex Midland Red routes which WMPTE had taken over.

I think that these were to replace the Centrebus (either 100 or 101 but it just showed 'Centrebus' to begin with a long time before most other named routes) which just went round the city centre. Besides the 103 there was the 101 which is similar to that of today (except in the city centre). Previously it had been in the 70's alongside the Soho Road services (?76?). Most of the other 100s were former Midland Red routes to Sutton. ​

 

[DavidGrain]

You are right about the renumbering. The 600s and 900s were later, 900s called 'Timesaver'. I think some Midland Red routes dropped their 'B' prefix - Dudley Road routes were affected.

No need to change, no real overlap except for the 159 which fitted with the pattern. You can travel between Birmingham, Sandwell and Dudley in places without obviously crossing the border from one to another, not so Coventry. Also I'm not sure that the number blinds on all Coventry buses could show 3 figure numbers.
I think that these were to replace the Centrebus (either 100 or 101 but it just showed 'Centrebus' to begin with a long time before most other named routes) which just went round the city centre. Besides the 103 there was the 101 which is similar to that of today (except in the city centre). Previously it had been in the 70's alongside the Soho Road services (?76?). Most of the other 100s were former Midland Red routes to Sutton. ​

The Dudley Road routes B80 to B89 were joint Midland Red and Birmingham Corporation and were the replacement services for the Dudley Road trams (I think September 1939 an ominous date in retrospect). I think the B significance was that it enabled the route numbers to be a compromise between the BCT numbers and also fit in with other Midland Red local services eg D for Dudley. L for Leamington Spa etc. Although they were joint services B80 was always operated by BCT, B86 and B87 were always Midland Red. B83 was BCT except that some Midland Reds came on the route on Sundays. The only B85 I ever saw was a single midday BCT on Smethwick High Street looking a complete stranger on a road normally only served by Midland Red and West Bromwich Corporation buses. As you say the B prefix was dropped, I am not exactly sure at what date. The only surviving numbers are 82 and 87. Some 80s number have been re-asigned to other routes.

I remember the Centrebus. It used to just do a city centre circuit. I used to park my car in Masshouse Circus carpark from where it operated and use it to get where I wanted to go in the city centre. I think there was only a token fare like 10p. When it was linked with another route out to Handsworth (?) it was no longer any use to me.

 

[Typhoon]

I remember the Centrebus. It used to just do a city centre circuit. I used to park my car in Masshouse Circus carpark from where it operated and use it to get where I wanted to go in the city centre. I think there was only a token fare like 10p. When it was linked with another route out to Handsworth (?) it was no longer any use to me.

Initially they used minibuses, I remember, and went along some quite unlikely (pedestrianised) roads. Only later did they use 'real' buses - single deck Fleetlines?. Surely the link was to the route I am guessing was the 76 to form the 101 of today. Did the 10p include parking? 10p got you some way in the 70's, I seem to remember the Centrebus being more like 2p! I still maintain it was an early example of a route with a name, not a number.

There is a map of the route at https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=BED587711B5ADBB96A0A807E599E2EFBFB1CB5D4&thid=OIP.xZvO5k37nIh4YxwjBDgdNAHaFi&mediaurl=https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3684/32921084543_6b02bfa7ba_b.jpg&exph=766&expw=1024&q=centrebus+birmingham&selectedindex=70&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=1,2,6

 

[buslad1988]

Up until the mid 2000’s Ipswich Buses ran pretty much an entirely inter-worked town network. Only recently in the past few years have routes been split up due to increased congestion and delays (resulting in increased PVR or reduced frequency).

I’d imagine it was quite confusing for visitors but the locals were used to it - although usually once a year they’d change some route inter-workings.

For example you’d take a 5 or 11 to the Hospital but coming back you’d take a 7 or 15. Most people’s buses to/from home were different numbers too. You might of caught a 8 to town and a 13 home. All quite complicated... and none of the destination blinds would say via Town Centre either!

But still... the good old days! (sigh)

 

[Statto]

Here's a PDF of the services transferred from Midland Red to WMPTE
http://www.stourbridgebusinfo.co.uk/ip/scanned/buses74.pdf

 

[Typhoon]

Here's a PDF of the services transferred from Midland Red to WMPTE
http://www.stourbridgebusinfo.co.uk/ip/scanned/buses74.pdf

Very informative, thank you.

 

[DavidGrain]

Initially they used minibuses, I remember, and went along some quite unlikely (pedestrianised) roads. Only later did they use 'real' buses - single deck Fleetlines?. Surely the link was to the route I am guessing was the 76 to form the 101 of today. Did the 10p include parking? 10p got you some way in the 70's, I seem to remember the Centrebus being more like 2p! I still maintain it was an early example of a route with a name, not a number.

There is a map of the route at https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=BED587711B5ADBB96A0A807E599E2EFBFB1CB5D4&thid=OIP.xZvO5k37nIh4YxwjBDgdNAHaFi&mediaurl=https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3684/32921084543_6b02bfa7ba_b.jpg&exph=766&expw=1024&q=centrebus+birmingham&selectedindex=70&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=1,2,6

You are right 2p. I was thinking 2p as I wrote my previous post but then though no it can't be. Yes the Centrebus was a good route in its day. I also remember about that time travelling on a similar bus in Sheffield but I remember that as a free service also did a bit of a loop out of the city centre. That was something new in those day, a 'kneeling bus' they called it when the driver dropped the suspension at bus stops.

 

[carlberry]

You are right 2p. I was thinking 2p as I wrote my previous post but then though no it can't be. Yes the Centrebus was a good route in its day. I also remember about that time travelling on a similar bus in Sheffield but I remember that as a free service also did a bit of a loop out of the city centre. That was something new in those day, a 'kneeling bus' they called it when the driver dropped the suspension at bus stops.

I believe that Sheffield had a trial with a Leyland National that was specially modified to lose the air in it's suspension on demand. They also had an early trial of bendi buses. 2p would get you quite far in Sheffield at the time as they had what were promoted as the cheapest bus fares in the country.

 

[Statto]

I believe that Sheffield had a trial with a Leyland National that was specially modified to lose the air in it's suspension on demand. They also had an early trial of bendi buses. 2p would get you quite far in Sheffield at the time as they had what were promoted as the cheapest bus fares in the country.

Speaking of Sheffield, didn't South Yorkshire PTE hike the fares for one day, that fares became what they charge nowadays, seem to remember 15p fare being well over £1, a lot of passengers abandoned the buses for that day?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I believe that Sheffield had a trial with a Leyland National that was specially modified to lose the air in it's suspension on demand.

As opposed to the practice of Leyland Nationals losing their air without request - think self levelling valves/sensors were a bit in their infancy!

 

[Dai Corner]

As opposed to the practice of Leyland Nationals losing their air without request - think self levelling valves/sensors were a bit in their infancy!

I was on a Newport Transport Scania (from memory) last week which continually lost and regained its air while waiting to depart the bus station, thus doing a little dance!

Off topic for the thread (sorry).

 

[carlberry]

As opposed to the practice of Leyland Nationals losing their air without request - think self levelling valves/sensors were a bit in their infancy!

The story I heard was that the idea came about because of one losing the air on one side and somebody then questioning if the same feature could be put to some use if you could make it a bit more predictable.

 

[tbtc]

I also remember about that time travelling on a similar bus in Sheffield but I remember that as a free service also did a bit of a loop out of the city centre

I guess that was the City Clipper, the bendi-bus operated service that looped around the city, in the days when the Central Bus Station was a lot busier (with many services not penetrating the city centre any more than that) and there were a few mini "bus stations" scattered on the fringes of the city centre (Campo Lane, Bridge Street etc), so a service connecting all of the different bits of the city centre was essential.

This was the 500, with the "Early Bird" 700 running in the morning rush hour to provide a more direct service around the city.

The 500 survived until September 1990 when it became the 501 - a service from the southern end of the city centre at Moorfoot through to the Waingate area, similar to before, still arctic-operated IIRC, but now extended to the new-fangled Meadowhall shopping centre (which opened around four years before the trams started, so the bus was very busy at first).

The 501 became the 501/502 and turned into a cross city service to Batemoor (similar to the current First 75 but with the 502 replacing the 36 along Archer Road similar to the current Stagecoach 86) to compete with the Sheffield Omnibus 40 (City - Batemoor used to be a ten minute service on the SYT 36/43 but these services were slightly indirect - Sheffield Omnibus ran along the main road through Woodseats and were taking a lot of passengers).

The 501/502 were slowly cut back and eventually replaced by an increased X78 from the city centre to Meadowhall (which also took a lot of the old 601/602 from Rotherham to Meadowhall).

(no idea when the 500 stopped being a free service, mind)

 

[Statto]

When did the suffix E started being used mainly for short journeys, my area Wirral, suffix E was used for PTE journeys to or near Laird Street or Seaview Road garage, A & B were still used in the early 80s for other short journeys, short journeys in Manchester used the already mentioned suffix X.

 

[Typhoon]

When did the suffix E started being used mainly for short journeys, my area Wirral, suffix E was used for PTE journeys to or near Laird Street or Seaview Road garage, A & B were still used in the early 80s for other short journeys, short journeys in Manchester used the already mentioned suffix X.

West Midlands PTE quite early on, I reckon, mid seventies. I can remember timetable books that used spare space at the bottom of timetable books to claim that 'E (stands) for Exception'. I can remember one such book for North Division with a picture of a Bristol VRT on the cover. It is more likely to have been a newer vehicle, I would have thought. The PTE would have had a problem as Birmingham delighted in suffixes; if you take Alcester Road services, those terminating at Queensbridge had one suffix - possibly H), terminating at Kings Heath had a J suffix (like 49J), Alcester Lanes End K suffix, Maypole (possibly L), etc. Journeys that turned short of the City centre would also have a suffix so St Martin's Circus might be 'A'. To replicate this across the complete West Midlands would have been a nightmare. So, I guess they simplified the process by just using 'E'. Incidentally there were routes where the 'E' journeys outnumbered those without a suffix; so much for exception.

Edit in bold.