Buses on Motorways with Standees

[bussnapperwm]

(From the Gatwick Airport Rail Replacement thread)

Unfortunately the type of buses being used - and standing passengers - meant the buses were forbidden from the motorway and as such each circuit took longer. The 12 per hour bus frequency also did not quite seem to account for the combination of air travellers and the sheer volume emerging from the trains from London.

Surely though, service buses with standees are permitted on Motorways, otherwise some bus operators who run services along sections of motorways are doing something wrong.

I mean, from a Midlands viewpoint, I've been on a Solo that had every seat occupied and a couple of standees down the A38M, onto the M6 and then onto the M42. No seatbelts required. Same with the E400s that do the X services down the Distressway into/out of city.

Is there any other example where services regularly have standing passengers and run on motorway sections?

 

[Harpers Tate]

There is no legal basis to prevent buses from carrying standees (within their rated capacity) on Motorways. In this context, Motorways are not distinguished from any other type of road. Bus operators and/or their insurers, may choose to have further restrictions, but it's not as a direct result of any road traffic law.

 

[gingerheid]

Buses designed for urban use don't need seat belts, may carry standing passengers, and are allowed to carry standing passengers on motorways. I think coaches aren't, which may be the reference to "type of vehicle".

 

[Tetchytyke]

Nearly every service bus into Newcastle from the south goes on the Central Motorway, and that includes with standing passengers.

Sounds like someone got their law wrong. Not unusual with traffic police, to be quite honest.

 

[overthewater]

This old awful chestnut again! Ive done this plenty of time on the M8 and M90. Go back 15 years and you had old B10M caoches and there have 8 standing.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This old awful chestnut again!

Indeed - we’ll be having the “not reversing with passengers on board” discussion again soon......<Sonny and Cher comes on the radio>

 

[Mwanesh]

What type of buses where used.If its London buses they are limited to 40mph.They might be an issue on motorways.I know Stagecoach Basingstoke when they borrow London buses for Wentworth Golf they adjust the speed for motorway driving.

 

[RJ]

What type of buses where used.If its London buses they are limited to 40mph.They might be an issue on motorways.I know Stagecoach Basingstoke when they borrow London buses for Wentworth Golf they adjust the speed for motorway driving.

Some of them are, some aren't. At some of the London garages I drive out of the buses are limited to anything up to 67mph.

 

[Ianno87]

What type of buses where used.If its London buses they are limited to 40mph.They might be an issue on motorways.I know Stagecoach Basingstoke when they borrow London buses for Wentworth Golf they adjust the speed for motorway driving.

The only London Buses route that uses a section of motorway in passenger service is, I believe, the A10 from Heathrow to Uxbridge, that uses the M4 spur (admittedly, barely a "proper" motorway, given its short length).

Must carry standees from time to time surely, given its otherwise a fairly "urban" route?

 

[deltic]

Glasgow airport shuttle buses carry standing passengers on the M8

DfT guidance on buses on motorways can be found at https://assets.publishing.service.g...nformation_Sheet_Urban_buses_on_motorways.pdf

"Buses that have been approved or certified to carry standing passengers in accordance with National or European construction rules are not restricted on which roads they can use. Additionally, the Motorway Traffic (England and Wales) Regulations 1982(SI 1982No. 1163) and The Motorways Traffic (Scotland) Regulations 1995 (SI 1995 No.2507) (S.183)permit buses to use motorways but they are not allowed to stop and pick up passengers on such roads."

 

[transmanche]

Nearly every service bus into Newcastle from the south goes on the Central Motorway, and that includes with standing passengers.

I can't recall which routes go from the Tyne Bridge directly to Pilgrim Street (thus avoiding the Central Motorway) and which go from the Tyne Bridge onto the motorway as far as the New Bridge Street exit. (Of course, routes using the Swing Bridge or the Redheugh Bridge do not use the Central Motorway at all.)

However, I do recall that when the High Level Bridge closed for renovation works in 2005 (which required long-term - and in some cases permanent - diversions to a number of routes) that the publicity noted that some routes which were being diverted to use the Central Motorway would not be able to carry standing passengers. So perhaps the guidance has changed at some point?

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect that if your bus is going along happily at 70 mph, and all of a sudden comes to a halt whilst the standing passengers continue through the windscreen, that would be a big problem.

Coaches strongly suggest that seatbelts are compulsory (I suspect for the above reason) even though few companies enforce it.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I suspect that if your bus is going along happily at 70 mph, and all of a sudden comes to a halt whilst the standing passengers continue through the windscreen, that would be a big problem.

Coaches strongly suggest that seatbelts are compulsory (I suspect for the above reason) even though few companies enforce it.

seeing as motorways are known to be the safest roads to travel on, I find it odd that people just can't get their heads around being allowed to stand on a bus on the motorway... you are much more likely to experience a bus having to do an emergency stop on normal roads than on a motorway!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect that if your bus is going along happily at 70 mph, and all of a sudden comes to a halt whilst the standing passengers continue through the windscreen, that would be a big problem.

Indeed it would. But that is more likely to happen on a regular 70mph dual carriageway (such as the MK grid roads, or the A1 or something) than it is on a motorway, because those roads are more dangerous than motorways.

I don't entirely understand why people seem to have difficulty with this - there are only really two sensible cases - one of:-
- No standees on a vehicle capable of over N mph (maybe 40)
- Standees allowed on all vehicles designed for them

 

[Robertj21a]

I suspect that if your bus is going along happily at 70 mph, and all of a sudden comes to a halt whilst the standing passengers continue through the windscreen, that would be a big problem.

Coaches strongly suggest that seatbelts are compulsory (I suspect for the above reason) even though few companies enforce it.

I'd be a bit concerned if my bus was doing 70 mph.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Typically, coaches don't have a standee component in their permitted capacity. Regardless of the road, such a vehicle may not carry standees. Typically buses do have a standee component in their permitted capacity. Regardless of the road, such a vehicle may carry standees, within its capacity.

 

[Tetchytyke]

However, I do recall that when the High Level Bridge closed for renovation works in 2005 (which required long-term - and in some cases permanent - diversions to a number of routes) that the publicity noted that some routes which were being diverted to use the Central Motorway would not be able to carry standing passengers. So perhaps the guidance has changed at some point?

Yes, I remember Go-Ahead saying that too.

I think it's one of those old chestnuts that persist because it feels like common sense to ban it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I remember Go-Ahead saying that too.

I think it's one of those old chestnuts that persist because it feels like common sense to ban it.

Except when you think it through it very much isn't unless you also ban standees on other more dangerous high speed roads.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I suspect that if your bus is going along happily at 70 mph, and all of a sudden comes to a halt whilst the standing passengers continue through the windscreen, that would be a big problem.

And not forgetting the additional luggage....

Would the additional loads/luggage mean a lowered speed restriction for the urban buses whilst out on the motorway? Mine was a London bus

 

[carlberry]

I suspect that if your bus is going along happily at 70 mph, and all of a sudden comes to a halt whilst the standing passengers continue through the windscreen, that would be a big problem.

Coaches strongly suggest that seatbelts are compulsory (I suspect for the above reason) even though few companies enforce it.

If the bus is traveling at 70 then somebody has already decided obeying the law is not for them and has removed the governor so little things like standing passengers wont worry them!
The law was changed a few years ago so, if seat belts are provided, passengers have to use them. As long as the vehicle has a sign, or announcement, to that effect the company has done their job. Beyond that it's the police that can enforce it.

 

[Harpers Tate]

If the bus is traveling at 70 then somebody has already decided obeying the law is not for them .....

Which law? The speed limit for a bus or coach 12 metres or less in length (which is most, I guess) on a Motorway is (answers on a postcard) ?

 

[carlberry]

Which law? The speed limit for a bus or coach 12 metres or less in length (which is most, I guess) on a Motorway is (answers on a postcard) ?

The law that requires a speed limiter set at 62mph.

 

[Harpers Tate]

...which depends on when the vehicle was first registered.

 

[WatcherZero]

Looking at the Dft guidance it seems to be the other way round, since 1st October 2001 new buses must have seatbelts installed unless they are designed exclusively for Urban use and so standing is permitted.

Essentially its not that buses operating on Motorways should have seatbelts fitted its that buses operating outside urban areas are already legally required to carry them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that guidance or a law? I haven't seen *any* buses with seat belts on anywhere, even on express services, unless dual-purposed for school use or a coach (no standees).

 

[transmanche]

Is that guidance or a law? I haven't seen *any* buses with seat belts on anywhere, even on express services, unless dual-purposed for school use or a coach (no standees).

If it's this information, then it's described by the DfT as "advice and guidance on the law on seatbelts in urban buses".

Since 1 October 2001, seat belts have been required to be installed in each forward and rearward facing seat in all new buses. The use of an approved and properly fitted restraint system can help prevent death or serious injury, not only by restraining the occupant from forward motion but also by preventing their ejection from the vehicle, particularly in accidents where the vehicle rolls over. The only exemption from this requirement is for buses that are designed for urban use with standing passengers. An exemption is permitted for these vehicles because they are typically used for short journeys, in both time and distance, undertaken at moderate speeds on urban routes. Although we are aware that vehicles equipped with seat belts are used by some operators for urban fare paying services, ultimately, it is for the operator to choose the type of vehicle used to provide a service.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its this one I was looking at, identical text but carries the additional paragraph that buses cant pick up passengers along the side of motorways.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...nformation_Sheet_Urban_buses_on_motorways.pdf

The disclaimer says its the Dft's understanding of the law but would have to be tested in court as its the courts which interpret law.

 

[yorksrob]

If the bus is traveling at 70 then somebody has already decided obeying the law is not for them and has removed the governor so little things like standing passengers wont worry them!
The law was changed a few years ago so, if seat belts are provided, passengers have to use them. As long as the vehicle has a sign, or announcement, to that effect the company has done their job. Beyond that it's the police that can enforce it.

I must admit, I wasn't aware that buses had a different speed limit on motorways to other vehicles. Perhaps the police were worried that the drivers might be tempted to put their foot down !

 

[Taunton]

Back before 1986 when bus routes had to be licensed by the Traffic Commissioners, they routinely, on routes which involved motorways, always prohibited standing passengers on those sections. I am aware that the bus that started from Bristol to Chepstow in 1966 when the M4 Severn Bridge opened had this restriction placed on it. I think there may even have been a note to this effect in the timetable (someone must have an old one). I guess this approach has carried forward, even though there was never a legal prohibition.

 

[Mwanesh]

Is that guidance or a law? I haven't seen *any* buses with seat belts on anywhere, even on express services, unless dual-purposed for school use or a coach (no standees).

The Stagecoach X3 and X4 South Wales buses have seatbelts fitted as standard.