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Buses vs Trains

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4SRKT

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Mods note: This topic was split from the 'offensive article' topic.
The reply below refers to Flamingo's signature;

Flamingo said:
"the bus stop is just down the road'

I hope your tag line of 'the bus stop is just down the road' is not simply another way of saying 'if you don't like the service, tough'.
 
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Flamingo

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I hope your tag line of 'the bus stop is just down the road' is not simply another way of saing 'if you don't like the service, tough'.
Well, this is the season of hope <D
 
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scotsman

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Well, you can only do the best you can...and if they aren't happy with that - the bus stop is just down the road :P
 

Mojo

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Well, you can only do the best you can...and if they aren't happy with that - the bus stop is just down the road :P

Except unfortunately buses are no competition or alternative for trains...
 

Flamingo

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Except unfortunately buses are no competition or alternative for trains...

Of course they are. It's just that a lot of people won't consider them as:
1. They are perceived to be not as comfortable
2. They are slower
3. They are less frequent
4. They can carry less people
5. They are more easily held up by traffic, and offer no compensation when this happens
(and the major reason why some people won't use them)
5. They insist on checking the passengers has a valid ticket BEFORE they allow them on board.

But it's ridiculous to say they are not an alternative. :roll: They are a slower, less convenient alternative, but they are cheaper, which given the obsession a lot of posters have with getting the cheapest ADVANCED ticket possible, is obviously a consideration, especially if travellers don't want to pay the walk-up fare that trains charge.

Indeed, whenever anyone complains that my unreasonable attitude in insisting they pay for a valid ticket has "cost the railway another passenger", I will usually remind them that Greyhound / National Express do offer an alternative means of transport, and express my hope they will enjoy their bus journey next time. <D
 

Mojo

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Buses are really not an alternative to trains; they do not offer the same level of service and do not provide the same services and journey opportunities that trains do. In fact the only thing they probably have in common is they transport passengers from some places to some other places (and they don't do that as well as trains)!
 

scotsman

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As an aside, re: comments about RPIs at South Gyle not being paid to help passengers but check tickets - a passenger will (understandably) see them wearing a branded hi-vis jacket and consider them to represent "British Rail" (or insert this week's TOC name here). All staff who are identifiable as working for the railways ought to have responsibility for dealing with passengers - even if it's "sorry, I don't know, but Jim over there will be able to find out".

I've done my share on Stewarding duty, clueless person trying to find "the train from London". In the end, IIRC, she thought it was due around 1910 and it was 1902....:roll:
 

Flamingo

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Buses are really not an alternative to trains; they do not offer the same level of service and do not provide the same services and journey opportunities that trains do. In fact the only thing they probably have in common is they transport passengers from some places to some other places (and they don't do that as well as trains)!
Nobody is suggesting that they are going to replace trains, but they are an alternative. :D
 

scotsman

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Buses are really not an alternative to trains; they do not offer the same level of service and do not provide the same services and journey opportunities that trains do. In fact the only thing they probably have in common is they transport passengers from some places to some other places (and they don't do that as well as trains)!

They are to Fort William and Oban - more of them, faster and cheaper!
 

90019

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Buses are really not an alternative to trains; they do not offer the same level of service and do not provide the same services and journey opportunities that trains do. In fact the only thing they probably have in common is they transport passengers from some places to some other places (and they don't do that as well as trains)!

You think?

To travel from Stirling uni to my house in Edinburgh, I can either take a Dunblane train from Stirling back to Edinburgh, or get the Citylink 909.

The train journey involves a bus at either end, and costs £9. The overall journey is about 2 hours.
The 909 involves one other bus and costs £7.90. Overall journey time is about 90 minutes.
The train is half hourly, the bus hourly, but I'm more likely to miss the train I'm going for as I have to get into Stirling first, whereas the bus is a 5 minute walk from my room.
I use a mix of both options, the bus is cheaper, quicker more convenient and just as comfortable as the train, but I do enjoy taking the train too. The 909 has been pretty much unaffected by the snow recently, whereas the trains were a mess.
When I was back the week after the first snow, to take the train would have involved going to Queen Street and then changing onto an Edinburgh train there. Meanwhile, the bus was running on time and arrived 5 minutes early despite the snow on the roads (it had been snowing before it left and during the journey).

Do you consider the 909 to not be an alternative to the train?
 

Mojo

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I'd still not take the bus, because it's a bus and buses are a horrible mode of transport and one which is not socially acceptable. I wouldn't take a bus at either end, I'd find another way of travelling.

I hardly thinking taking a few examples of where buses might be faster against the much more likely chance of a train being quicker.
 

scotsman

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I'd still not take the bus, because it's a bus and buses are a horrible mode of transport and one which is not socially acceptable. I wouldn't take a bus at either end, I'd find another way of travelling.

I hardly thinking taking a few examples of where buses might be faster against the much more likely chance of a train being quicker.

From Edinburgh - Inverness, the coach is quicker. Quite a major journey.
 

90019

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I'd still not take the bus, because it's a bus and buses are a horrible mode of transport and one which is not socially acceptable. I wouldn't take a bus at either end, I'd find another way of travelling.

You know what? Please do. It means I'm more likely to get a seat to myself :D

Can you explain why it's less socially acceptable than a train?
 

Mojo

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Can you explain why it's less socially acceptable than a train?
I don't know, why don't you ask every leading transport planner who seems to agree that buses will never be considered an acceptable alternative to the car?

Probably because of the fact buses are slow, unreliable, generally uncomfortable, represent poor value for money, are typically used by the types of people as a mode of transport of last resort. And don't give me any nonsense that there is a bus route running through a village in which nobody lives or cares about which is always on time, very fast and smooth, because it doesn't wash. The fact is the majority of services are like this, hence why buses, nowhere, not even London, widely regarded as the best place for buses in Britain, are not a suitable alternative to the private car.
 

90019

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The fact is the majority of services are like this, hence why buses, nowhere, not even London, widely regarded as the best place for buses in Britain, are not a suitable alternative to the private car.

They are in Edinburgh.

Before you say they're not, how much experience do you have of using Lothian buses?
 

MCR247

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or Nottingham, which has Nottingham City Transport and Trent Barton, who are very good bus services?
 

Mojo

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Might be good bus services to you, but in the real world if you want to present actual facts about buses, then I'll split the thread into the 'Other transport' forum and we can discuss the actual facts and all my sources about how:
- buses do not aid or foster regeneration, they merely serve it
- the operating costs of buses are higher than light rail
- modal shift of buses is substantially lower than of rail; people will never see them as a real alternative to the car unless a huge stick is provided
- buses do not represent value for money
- the provision of bus services show no notable increase in land and property values, unlike rail
- enhancement of bus services in provincial cities has shown no long-term shift away from cars, based solely on the changes to the bus services
 

90019

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Might be good bus services to you

They're good services to me and most other people who use them as well.
Presenting gerenal statistics about buses is all very well, but I find that real world experience of a service and company for both leisure and commuting, and talking to those who use them, is a much better indicator of how good they are.

As I say, before you dismiss Lothian, can you please say how much experience you have of using their services?
 
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jon0844

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Nobody is suggesting that they are going to replace trains, but they are an alternative. :D

So is walking! :lol:

Buses are fine in London on routes where they're very frequent (to be fair, once you're within Z1-3 it's most routes). The new buses are smooth and comfortable, and can beat the tube if you needed to change lines and factor in walking. You can also use your mobile (surfing the net in my case) and see the view.

However, at home, buses are hit and miss. They're not reliable (even the new buses seem poorly maintained or were a bad choice of purchase in the first place), run early (a nightmare if there's an hour wait) and drivers will even skip parts of the route to finish early (and I know as I've been on the buses, where the driver has even suggested he's doing me a favour, despite the fact anyone waiting at the last 4-5 stops get no bus at all).

I would never rely on buses locally, even though they do - on paper - run very frequently and to all the places I might drive to. Of course, there's no integration so forget connections (more long waits) and so a 20 minute journey might become a 50 minute or 80 minute journey, if it's 30 or 60 minutes to wait for the next one. Walking is certainly an option in these cases.

Again, in London there's a broad mix of people using the bus - but locally, it is certainly more of the stereotypes. You just ignore them and it's fine.
 
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MCR247

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IMO, you can't compare buses and trains. I like both as a method of transport, but I definitely cannot find many cases where I would have to choose about using both.

I couldn't use a train to get to town, without getting a bus to get a train.
I couldn't use a bus to Manchester.

Simple as.

But then there are occasions where buses and trains are both attractive options...

Going for a day trip to Derby:

- Would need a bus into town. Bus doesn't go to Victoria Bus station, so requires a walk. Bus takes me straight to City

- Still need to take a bus into town. Bus doesn't go to station, so requires a slightly further walk. Train takes me out of the very centre. Walk/taxi/bus.

So, for me, I would get the red arrow. A bus.

A train can't replace a bus, and a bus can't replace a train.

A train could get me to Manchester, but I need a bus to get to the Trafford Centre. Can you suggest another viable alternative that drops me outside?

A train will get me to Bristol for a week trip. But how do I get to the station for £1.50? Certainly not the car, and definitely not a taxi.
 

scotsman

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Not that I like buses, I had to use one replacing the EC service from Perth - Aviemore. I had 2 seats to myself from Pitlochry, decent legroom - all on a new or recently refurbished coach. Thing is, it was an uncomfortable piece of crap.
 

MCR247

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So are pacers, but they shouldn't be used to condemn the whole rail fleet.

There will always be a place for railways and a place for buses. Just for different markets. They could easily work together to expand those markets....
 

90019

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- buses do not represent value for money

Once again, I must point out that this isn't always the case.
I will use Lothian, as I know enough about them.
It's a single flat fare of £1.20 for an adult to go to any stop on the side of the route you're on. This includes short runs but also ones like end to end on the 44, which is over 21 miles.

I worked something out recently on this front, which I found interesting.
Whilst I was working in the city centre, I commuted on the buses, along with a lot of other people in my office. I got a Ridacard, which cost £45 for 4 weeks unlimited travel (it was good value as I was using it twice a day during the week and a few times each weekend).
To drive; assuming 25mpg (taking into account idling in traffic), fuel is approx £2 per week, parking is £80 per week (£16 per day to park for over 8 hours), so for an equivalent 4 weeks, the car costs £328.
There is no rail option. The tram would be completely useless for this journey and would make it needlessly longer.
Walking and cycling were a no because of the uphills mostly, but also because of the time they would take.
 
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jopsuk

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Getting to and from work, I can (as I have no car) cycle, take a train or take a bus. The train is, astonisinhingly, cheaper and much, much quicker than the bus. More frequent as well! The bus does stop closer to work, but not enough to beat the train plus the walk from the station (or even come close)- at the "home" end the nearest stop is at the railways station.

cycling is best for me, mind- nothing quite like a ten mile ride to wake you up.
 

Metroland

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Buses might be quite cheap in cities but they certainly are not outside, I paid £5 the other day to do a 9 mile trip. This was on a bus full of heavily subsidised pensioners.

Generally speaking, the middle class avoid them. No wonder when the information is poor waiting on a drafty bus stop, if one doesn't turn up tough. In the summer it took me 3 hours to go 25 miles by bus, with one change. So everyone ends up getting a car, because not only are they slow, they are not especially cost effective or pleasant to travel on.

They are okay for what they are, and I have no wish to close down bus routes, unlike the constant competition from them that decimated branch and trams lines from the 1930s.

Since then, however they have constantly lost passengers (apart from London and a couple of urban areas) and the only places they seem to have success is where they are integrated with tram/rail.

I'd question why some bus companies are able to run competing bus and train services, asnd claim subsidy for both.

But personally speaking, given a bus or tram/train it's the rail option every time. I use buses because atm I don't have a car, but when I do get one, I shall continue to use the train.
 

junglejames

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Im slightly lost what happened here. First it was buses against trains, then when Mr Mojo was asked why buses are not as socially acceptable as trains, he suddenly brings cars into it. Where did they appear from?
If we are going to include cars, then most people would say even trains are a poor comparison.
So to be honest, im not sure where this thread is heading. But anyhow. Buses are sometimes good value for money. Lothian Buses is a good example. They usually offer a good service as well. Admittedly buses are not as comfortable as cars, but they can offer a reasonably good service, which is often cheaper than taking your car.
Onto the buses against trains part. Are we on about buses, or long distance coaches? If its buses, then very rarely are they an alternative to trains, as they do different things. Buses are more local. Trains are usually for longer journeys. This isnt always the case, but usually is. When it is possible to use both, then it usually depends how close you are to the railway station, as to what is the best alternative. If you live within say a 10min walk to the station, then a train would usually be quicker.

Now if we go onto long distance coaches. They offer virtually the same service as a train. I wouldnt use them, as i much prefer travelling by train, but the service is very similar. Assuming you travel standard class by train. The legroom on coaches is usually less, and seats sometimes narrower, but the seats on the whole are often just as comfortable (esp as i find trains seem to be getting more and more uncomfortable). Coaches are usually a lot lot cheaper though. Its this cheapness that makes them a real alternative. If it wasnt for how cheap they are, then very few people would use them, as trains are usually quicker, and more spacious, and some trains offer refreshments. Service levels though are similar, except for the possiblity of a buffet (now quite rare!!) on a train.
They are a real alternative, but it depends what you are after. If its cheapness, then go by coach. If its something more spacious, and quicker, with money no problem, then go by train.

As i said, id never travel by coach (well unless i had no option), but they can be pleasant enough, and are an alternative.

To be honest though, if you enjoy driving, then the car would probably beat them both, unless you need to work on the move. Even i usually drive when going from Kent to Scotland now, because its so handy having my car when im up there. If there was a motorail service, id possibly use that, but there isnt.
My car rivals most trains for comfort, i can listen to whatever music i like without head phones, and i can sing along to my hearts content!!
 

yorksrob

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Up until recently, I had a commute which involved travelling from the centre of Leeds to the suburbs, for which I had the option of either a very infrequent train service (hourly with a couple of extras in the peaks) or the bus.

Generally, I tended to manipulate my day around using the train because though the buses were more frequent, they were less reliable and they never seemed to follow any sort of timetable - I usually seemed to end up waiting for ages.

Added to this, the bus always took three times as long and was always much more cramped and uncomfortable than the Pacer.

I also echo Metroland's point that buses rarely seem to be particularly cheap in my experience. The old ploy of replacing return fares with "day rovers" seems quite prevalent with the situation in Leigh being a good example, where the return bus journey from Atherton to Leigh costs more than the return train from central Manchester to Atherton.

In short, though buses are a necessary evil, I find them to be generally rubbish and no plausible alternative to the train. I usually go out of my way to avoid them.
 

Mojo

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Once again, I must point out that this isn't always the case.
I will use Lothian, as I know enough about them.
It's not about the cost to the farepayer of buses but the overall cost of the operations, not all of which is met by the farepayer. I know this company makes a surplus from its operations, but that is not the case nationwide. Buses are subsidised by the taxpayer to the tune of £2.9bn. The railways are little better, but when you consider buses don't cover their infrastructure costs, taking Tocs only then we are talking about a 4% subsidy.

The point I'm making is that financial for buses is not value for money. Revenue support gets you very little (source) and capital investment which costs around £2m per km for a normal ''Showcase'' bus route gets you very little in the way of modal shift; unless you introduce some other anti-car stick.

Metroland has said above; most people will not consider using the bus as an alternative to the car. Buses can be good for short-distance suburban journeys from your house to the station (which might not exist yet), but in many cases I'd I perhaps have a vision in years to come that the only vehicles we'll see in city centres are rail based ones, road vehicles making deliveries or vehicles owned by people who live in the city centres.
 
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