CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[hexagon789]

2+1 surely? They'll be operating alongside the MkIV rakes (with 2+1 seating like the current MkIIIs) between Cardiff and Shrewsbury, and I'd be gobsmacked if TfW think 2+2 will meet the expectations of potential First Class travellers on the Manchester-South Wales route. There's no history of "commuter" 2+2 First Class in this neck of the woods, so people will expect that First Class means 2+1.

Put it this way - I hope it is 2+1, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was 2+2.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would that be ‘WMT Class 196 Civity interior showing seats’?

It would, yes, I have corrected it. Thanks.

 

[sefyllian]

Apart from the seats (and the cab ends) are these going to be physically the same trains as the Northern Class 195s?

Had my first trip on one of those recently, and it was worryingly rough and noisy. Loads of clanking noises from the wheels, and you could feel every bump in the track. I thought there was a fault with it, but others seem to have had the same impression.

I only had a short trip, but wouldn’t like to listen to that racket for a 4 hour trip down the Marches. A shame because otherwise I thought it was a really nice train. (And heard other passengers commenting on how nice it was too).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apart from the seats (and the cab ends) are these going to be physically the same trains as the Northern Class 195s?

The artist's impressions seem to suggest they will have the Class 397 style indirect lighting, and of course they have gangways, but otherwise, pretty much, yes.

Had my first trip on one of those recently, and it was worryingly rough and noisy. Loads of clanking noises from the wheels, and you could feel every bump in the track. I thought there was a fault with it, but others seem to have had the same impression.

I only had a short trip, but wouldn’t like to listen to that racket for a 4 hour trip down the Marches. A shame because otherwise I thought it was a really nice train. (And heard other passengers commenting on how nice it was too).

Yes, there is a big problem with all the CAF stock (including the Sleepers) of "busy", rattly and noisy riding. I can see the bogies getting replaced before too long.

 

[Cambrian359]

The artist's impressions seem to suggest they will have the Class 397 style indirect lighting, and of course they have gangways, but otherwise, pretty much, yes.



Yes, there is a big problem with all the CAF stock (including the Sleepers) of "busy", rattly and noisy riding. I can see the bogies getting replaced before too long.

Would it be to logical for tfw units to be built with different bogies then if they are proving an issue?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it be to logical for tfw units to be built with different bogies then if they are proving an issue?

Possibly. I wonder if TfW is aware of the issue?

 

[craigybagel]

Given the ride was an issue on the Irish MKIVs that CAF supplied about 15 years ago and I don't believe has ever been fully rectified, I wouldn't get your hopes up.

 

[hexagon789]

Given the ride was an issue on the Irish MKIVs that CAF supplied about 15 years ago and I don't believe has ever been fully rectified, I wouldn't get your hopes up.

Indeed, trials were made but it was never solved, I understand it was considered worse than even the Cravens at their 75mph maximum! I expect these trains won't ride especially well either, rough over crossings and points and on worn plain line, seems to be the norm with CAF products though it's not particular to just them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, I've just read in Modern Railways that the "upspecced, gold standard" seats that TfW have apparently paid a load extra for are...Fainsa Sophias, not the vastly superior FISA LEAN that WMT are using.

Are they thick as the proverbial pig-excrement?

 

[samuelmorris]

So, I've just read in Modern Railways that the "upspecced, gold standard" seats that TfW have apparently paid a load extra for are...Fainsa Sophias, not the vastly superior FISA LEAN that WMT are using.

Are they thick as the proverbial pig-excrement?

Oh far from it, that's very clever. Make a big point about not using a known controversial product, then keep cost differential to a minimum by switching to another, different, controversial product

The dubious build quality, noisy ventilation, clunking bogies of 195s, with Fainsa Sophias to sit on for those multi-hour journeys through Wales. It's not sounding like the ideal proposition now is it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The dubious build quality, noisy ventilation, clunking bogies of 195s, with Fainsa Sophias to sit on for those multi-hour journeys through Wales. It's not sounding like the ideal proposition now is it?

The phrase "Cheap As F...." is once again springing to mind. Not to mention that the things will be too short - 2 car Class 158s on the Cambrian are inadequate, and these things will have less capacity, not to mention the "sparks effect" increase on the Abers by way of the frequency increase. They all need to be 3-car, whatever they are.

Add to the fact that they can't be bothered painting the Mk4s, so are instead pairing a non-matching coach livery with a repainted DVT, it all speaks of an operation that's no less cheap and nasty than Arriva Trains Wales, which was very cheap and nasty.

 

[samuelmorris]

The phrase "Cheap As F...." is once again springing to mind.

That epithet may well be true, but to be fair to CAF, it isn't their fault which seats are chosen!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That epithet may well be true, but to be fair to CAF, it isn't their fault which seats are chosen!

I believe quite the opposite if MR is to be believed - they didn't want the variation order - I wasn't so much attacking them as using the phrase more widely!

 

[hexagon789]

So, I've just read in Modern Railways that the "upspecced, gold standard" seats that TfW have apparently paid a load extra for are...Fainsa Sophias, not the vastly superior FISA LEAN that WMT are using.

Are they thick as the proverbial pig-excrement?

Can't say I'm surprised they've taken this path, in fact I rather expected that for all the talk of not using those seats, they'd use other seats of a similar nature and lo and behold...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't say I'm surprised they've taken this path, in fact I rather expected that for all the talk of not using those seats, they'd use other seats of a similar nature and lo and behold...

I am genuinely surprised they haven't used FISA LEAN given that WMT, another CAF customer, have specced those.

 

[hexagon789]

I am genuinely surprised they haven't used FISA LEAN given that WMT, another CAF customer, have specced those.

I'll agree I expected they would use them, but neither am I surprised they haven't. Not after Northern and their whole seats débâcle.

 

[Meerkat]

Last months Modern Railways mentions that MTU are developing a hybrid power pack for the 197 that would still use the mechanical gearbox.
Would that mean having a traction motor driving a mechanical gearbox.....doesn’t sound very efficient?!?
Also implies the power pack wouldn’t have the batteries so got to find room for them also!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Last months Modern Railways mentions that MTU are developing a hybrid power pack for the 197 that would still use the mechanical gearbox.
Would that mean having a traction motor driving a mechanical gearbox.....doesn’t sound very efficient?!?
Also implies the power pack wouldn’t have the batteries so got to find room for them also!

It could be like most hybrid cars, where the wheels are driven by both the engine and a traction motor, quite similar to the way electric assist bicycles work? Presumably, like hybrid cars, it would reclaim energy on braking to use for acceleration?

 

[hexagon789]

Last months Modern Railways mentions that MTU are developing a hybrid power pack for the 197 that would still use the mechanical gearbox.
Would that mean having a traction motor driving a mechanical gearbox.....doesn’t sound very efficient?!?
Also implies the power pack wouldn’t have the batteries so got to find room for them also!

Same thing under trial by Irish Rail for their InterCity Railcars.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm fairly sure the 195s and 331s use Fainsa seats, I've seen stickers on the bases on trains not yet ready for passenger use saying 'Fainsa / CAF, tooling number 61, Project Northern & Transpennine'.

They are definitely Fainsa, but using more contoured cushioning than the basic ironing board. SWR's 701s also use the upgraded ironing boards.

 

[samuelmorris]

It could be like most hybrid cars, where the wheels are driven by both the engine and a traction motor, quite similar to the way electric assist bicycles work? Presumably, like hybrid cars, it would reclaim energy on braking to use for acceleration?

Trouble is, that isn't remotely the same gearbox - that approach only really works with CVTs, which the 195 gearboxes are not. The only way I could think of adapting it would be as described, stick a generator and electric motor in between the engine and the gearbox. I don't imagine that's a trivial process, even before the work on where to put the battery packs is considered.

 

[Domh245]

Last months Modern Railways mentions that MTU are developing a hybrid power pack for the 197 that would still use the mechanical gearbox.
Would that mean having a traction motor driving a mechanical gearbox.....doesn’t sound very efficient?!?
Also implies the power pack wouldn’t have the batteries so got to find room for them also!

Same thing under trial by Irish Rail for their InterCity Railcars.

Porterbrook also looking at a similar thing for their turbostars, so would expect it's the same lump?

https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/innov...rterbrook-launch-first-uk-hybrid-rail-project

 

[supervc-10]

Trouble is, that isn't remotely the same gearbox - that approach only really works with CVTs, which the 195 gearboxes are not. The only way I could think of adapting it would be as described, stick a generator and electric motor in between the engine and the gearbox. I don't imagine that's a trivial process, even before the work on where to put the battery packs is considered.

Doesn't need a CVT at all. The Kia/Hyundai hybrid system uses a 6-speed dual clutch with integrated electric motor, as does the system used by VW Group in their plug in hybrids. Those systems are quite capable of operating on electricity only, even at quite high speeds.

 

[Meerkat]

Doesn't need a CVT at all. The Kia/Hyundai hybrid system uses a 6-speed dual clutch with integrated electric motor, as does the system used by VW Group in their plug in hybrids. Those systems are quite capable of operating on electricity only, even at quite high speeds.

Isn’t that what samuelmorris said - an electric motor between the engine and the gearbox?
Sounds very heavy and inefficient - two transmissions. Not better to just replace the mechanics with traction motors and generators??

 

[tomuk]

It takes revolutionary thinking to develop a smart rail drive system like the Hybrid PowerPack. Find out what makes MTU different, and why our Hybrid PowerPack brings added value to operators while benefiting passengers and the environment alike
https://www.mtu-solutions.com/eu/en/applications/rail/railcar-powerpacks/hybrid-powerpack.html

 

[Meerkat]

It takes revolutionary thinking to develop a smart rail drive system like the Hybrid PowerPack. Find out what makes MTU different, and why our Hybrid PowerPack brings added value to operators while benefiting passengers and the environment alike
https://www.mtu-solutions.com/eu/en/applications/rail/railcar-powerpacks/hybrid-powerpack.html

So is an electric motor and mechanical, and needs somewhere to put batteries. They ain’t going on the roof of a 165!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn’t that what samuelmorris said - an electric motor between the engine and the gearbox?
Sounds very heavy and inefficient - two transmissions. Not better to just replace the mechanics with traction motors and generators??

It might be better, but it's probably also more expensive (and has greater transmission losses).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The dubious build quality, noisy ventilation, clunking bogies of 195s, with Fainsa Sophias to sit on for those multi-hour journeys through Wales. It's not sounding like the ideal proposition now is it?

I had a couple of rides today on Northern 195s.
The ride on welded track was the usual bangy, clunky, noisy affair, but on jointed track it was simply appalling.
This was on the East Lancs/Copy Pit route where there is still an amount of poor quality jointed track about (eg around Lostock Hall, Blackburn and over Copy Pit).
Now TfW still has a fair bit of jointed track, eg on Conwy Valley and the Cambrian, and probably all over the south Wales branches.
I wouldn't relish an extended journey on a 195 over these routes.
Hopefully TfW will do better with their CAF build.

 

[supervc-10]

Isn’t that what samuelmorris said - an electric motor between the engine and the gearbox?
Sounds very heavy and inefficient - two transmissions. Not better to just replace the mechanics with traction motors and generators??

There are basically 2 input shafts into the gearbox- one from the engine, one from the motor. The engine can be declutched from the gearbox when running in electric mode.

A DEMU system might or might not be more efficient, I'm not sure. A direct drive during cruise is more efficient in cars during cruise, which is why the Chevy Volt would couple up the engine to the wheels at certain speeds. And given how there seems to be a shift to what amounts to a DSG gearbox in things like the 172 and 195, I do wonder if that's the more efficient system.

A hybrid system can integrate battery storage into either a DEMU or a mechanical drive.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

First bodyshell has come off the production line in Spain. Pics seen but not for me to share