CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Bikeman78]

By the end of January it's planned (or at least hoped!) for some 197s on Maesteg-Cheltenham diagrams to allow the 150s to go back onto the Treherbert line when that reopens.

From that point very few 150s will be planned on the mainline as they'll be required on the Valleys so anything not 197 will likely be booked a pair of 153s or occasional 158s.

How many 150s does the Valleys require? Back of an envelope calculation gives me a figure of 19. One on the Rhymney line, five for Treherbert and 13 for Merthyr and Aberdare to Barry and Bridgend. Assuming 28 out of 34 units available (used to be 30 from 36), that still leaves nine available for mainline use. I suspect they will turn out on mainline diagrams for many months to come.

 

[Russel]

Have all 197's got the big catering cupboard or is this just on the 3 car units and does the trolly fit in it?

Reason I ask is I was on a 2 car 197 from Crewe to Manchester earlier today, it was full and standing on arrival at Crewe and there was probably 50+ of us on the platform waiting to board, rear coach full, no room at all, so walked down the the back coach and found the area by the doors next to the accessible toilet totally clear of people, just the catering trolly and accompanying member of staff, great I thought, but no sooner had I stepped on board the catering staff member was barking orders about where to stand and and stating the red carpeted area had to be kept clear, so I spend the entire journey wedged into the area outside the toilet with about 20 other people!

No idea why he wanted the area to be kept clear but to say it was annoying is an understatement, it did make me feel a little better at Wilmslow when even more people piled on and ignored him...

It was like a throwback to Covid times!

 

[Western 52]

How many 150s does the Valleys require? Back of an envelope calculation gives me a figure of 19. One on the Rhymney line, five for Treherbert and 13 for Merthyr and Aberdare to Barry and Bridgend. Assuming 28 out of 34 units available (used to be 30 from 36), that still leaves nine available for mainline use. I suspect they will turn out on mainline diagrams for many months to come.

150s are still being used in west Wales at the moment on quite a few services. Pembroke is not cleared for 197s yet.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Have all 197's got the big catering cupboard or is this just on the 3 car units and does the trolly fit in it?

Reason I ask is I was on a 2 car 197 from Crewe to Manchester earlier today, it was full and standing on arrival at Crewe and there was probably 50+ of us on the platform waiting to board, rear coach full, no room at all, so walked down the the back coach and found the area by the doors next to the accessible toilet totally clear of people, just the catering trolly and accompanying member of staff, great I thought, but no sooner had I stepped on board the catering staff member was barking orders about where to stand and and stating the red carpeted area had to be kept clear, so I spend the entire journey wedged into the area outside the toilet with about 20 other people!

No idea why he wanted the area to be kept clear but to say it was annoying is an understatement, it did make me feel a little better at Wilmslow when even more people piled on and ignored him...

It was like a throwback to Covid times!

All 197s have the catering cupboard, it's part of the bodyshell framework.

The trolleys will fit in them in the long run, but the ones they use at the moment don't fit, so will be replacing them soon with ones that do fit in the cupboard.

 

[L401CJF]

Have all 197's got the big catering cupboard or is this just on the 3 car units and does the trolly fit in it?

Reason I ask is I was on a 2 car 197 from Crewe to Manchester earlier today, it was full and standing on arrival at Crewe and there was probably 50+ of us on the platform waiting to board, rear coach full, no room at all, so walked down the the back coach and found the area by the doors next to the accessible toilet totally clear of people, just the catering trolly and accompanying member of staff, great I thought, but no sooner had I stepped on board the catering staff member was barking orders about where to stand and and stating the red carpeted area had to be kept clear, so I spend the entire journey wedged into the area outside the toilet with about 20 other people!

No idea why he wanted the area to be kept clear but to say it was annoying is an understatement, it did make me feel a little better at Wilmslow when even more people piled on and ignored him...

It was like a throwback to Covid times!

I have a suspicion this is the same person who was guarding the first class section mentioned earlier up thread, I would be tempted to complain personally. The catering staff have no authority over passenger loadings etc, it is the guards job to keep areas clear if required or move people down. We all know there is no requirement to keep the "red area" clear. If the train is busy, it's busy, and all space should be used as required.

Of course the catering staff can politely ask people to move aside or to move their prams/luggage/bikes to make space for the trolley to get through, or to get the ramp out if they're getting off, but they shouldn't be barking at people to keep areas clear so they have some space. Most of them will happily squeeze into a corner when the train gets busy and will stay put.

Back on topic, I was chatting to a member of the catering staff yesterday regarding trolleys that fit the 197s cupboard. He said they hadn't had any updates on them yet. We do know they exist as photos were posted on internal media of one in the catering cupboard a few months go.

There was talk a while ago of having bottles of water stored in the onboard fridge that can be given out on hot days or in the event of a train becoming stranded but I'm not sure if/when that will happen.

Whilst on a 2 car running alone the catering cupboard is a huge waste of space, I believe once all units are introduced (and more 2+2, 2+3 and 3+3 formations introduced) then it won't be much of an issue. The trolleys are quite popular with the passengers, often asked if one is onboard/will be onboard later whilst I'm checking tickets - I would imagine the proposed "at seat ordering" would be quite successful when rolled out (providing the trains arnt short formed and full &standing!)

 

[childwallblues]

TfW have retained the hourly service on Chester to Liverpool. It is still two hourly Monday to Saturday. Today 197005 and 197007 are doing the honours.

 

[AlanL]

Anyone know when tfw are likely to introduce the new 197s on the Shrewsbury-Birmingham Int route as there seems to be a definitie shortage of rolling stock on this very busy route?

 

[berneyarms]

Anyone know when tfw are likely to introduce the new 197s on the Shrewsbury-Birmingham Int route as there seems to be a definitie shortage of rolling stock on this very busy route?

Not until the end of this year - the units for the Cambrian which operate those trips have yet to be delivered, tested and commissioned with the unique signalling there.

 

[AlanL]

Not until the end of this year - the units for the Cambrian which operate those trips have yet to be delivered, tested and commissioned with the unique signalling there.

Thanks so much for the update

 

[Lurcheroo]

The trolleys are quite popular with the passengers, often asked if one is onboard/will be onboard later whilst I'm checking tickets

Yep, same here, I was asked almost daily on the Cambrian mainline. Passengers love the trolley haha !

It would be nice to see some use / improved service made of the catering area as any improvement will go down a storm with passengers no doubt.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Anyone know when tfw are likely to introduce the new 197s on the Shrewsbury-Birmingham Int route as there seems to be a definitie shortage of rolling stock on this very busy route?

Introducing the 197s on the Shrewsbury-Birmingham route will probably just mean that the Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth/Pwllheli route (Cambrian lines) also goes over to 197 operation with the 158s going off-lease - in which case there will be no difference to the shortage of rolling stock.

 

[Bikeman78]

150s are still being used in west Wales at the moment on quite a few services. Pembroke is not cleared for 197s yet.

Aside from Bidston and the Cambrian, they cover most routes daily or at least a couple of times a week. Manchester Airport is rare now but 150245 went there today.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Introducing the 197s on the Shrewsbury-Birmingham route will probably just mean that the Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth/Pwllheli route (Cambrian lines) also goes over to 197 operation with the 158s going off-lease - in which case there will be no difference to the shortage of rolling stock.

How do you figure that one out?

 

[Jamesrob637]

TfW have retained the hourly service on Chester to Liverpool. It is still two hourly Monday to Saturday. Today 197005 and 197007 are doing the honours.

It goes back to hourly every day from next Monday. See below at Frodsham for example:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Frodsham all day on 22/01/2024

Train information at Frodsham all day on 22/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[RailWonderer]

How do you figure that one out?

He's assuming more 197s are introduced in time to replace the 158s going off lease. If not then short forms are almost certain.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Can we expect another new entry to service in the next week or two?

 

[Rhydgaled]

How do you figure that one out?

He's assuming more 197s are introduced in time to replace the 158s going off lease. If not then short forms are almost certain.

If the 158s go off-lease without more 197s being introduced first it won't only short forms but also cancelations since none of the 197s currently in use can run on the Cambrian at the moment as far as I know. Even if/when the ETCS-fitted 197s are delivered they are, at best, a 1-for-1 replacement in terms of number of units compared to TfWs class 158 fleet.

 

[Lurcheroo]

If the 158s go off-lease without more 197s being introduced first it won't only short forms but also cancelations since none of the 197s currently in use can run on the Cambrian at the moment as far as I know. Even if/when the ETCS-fitted 197s are delivered they are, at best, a 1-for-1 replacement in terms of number of units compared to TfWs class 158 fleet.

As far as I know, all the ETCS 197’s will need to be ready before the 158’s disappear as they want a straight switch on the Cambrian.
There are 3 less but won’t be off galavanting on the rest of the network as mush as the 158’s do so there will be an increase in number of units available for the Cambrian.

As far as I’m told (and could be wrong/outdated) the Birmingham services will switch over when the Cambrian goes so shouldn’t be a lack of units in that regard.

 

[RailWonderer]

If the 158s go off-lease without more 197s being introduced first it won't only short forms but also cancelations since none of the 197s currently in use can run on the Cambrian at the moment as far as I know. Even if/when the ETCS-fitted 197s are delivered they are, at best, a 1-for-1 replacement in terms of number of units compared to TfWs class 158 fleet.

Why was the Cambrian fitted with ETCS anyway? It's better to have one cohesive signalling system, except for new builds like HS1 or the Elizabeth line core or the Heathrow spur, why on an existing line, and a very rural one at that?

 

[craigybagel]

It was a pilot project for the UK. You doing just jump in with resignalling the ECML, you start off with a simpler, quieter route to see how well it works as a UK application first.

As to why the Cambrian was picked over other lines:
It's relatively isolated from the rest of the network, only joined at one point.
It doesn't require many units to operate the service, so they only had to fit the equipment to one type of unit.
It had little if any freight traffic, so they only needed to fit 4 Class 37s with the equipment for engineering trains and other duties for which a 158 would be inappropriate.
It's long and complex enough ti provide useful information - more than you'd get by just doing a quiet branch line somewhere else
And most importantly of all, it needed resignalling anyway! The RETB signalling user previously was life expired.

Can you think of any other line that tickled all the above boxes in the late 2000s?

 

[GWVillager]

It was a pilot project for the UK. You doing just jump in with resignalling the ECML, you start off with a simpler, quieter route to see how well it works as a UK application first.

As to why the Cambrian was picked over other lines:
It's relatively isolated from the rest of the network, only joined at one point.
It doesn't require many units to operate the service, so they only had to fit the equipment to one type of unit.
It had little if any freight traffic, so they only needed to fit 4 Class 37s with the equipment for engineering trains and other duties for which a 158 would be inappropriate.
It's long and complex enough ti provide useful information - more than you'd get by just doing a quiet branch line somewhere else
And most importantly of all, it needed resignalling anyway! The RETB signalling user previously was life expired.

Can you think of any other line that tickled all the above boxes in the late 2000s?

Also the splitting and joining of trains at Machynlleth?

 

[nigelsporne]

Can somebody please explain to me how the Cambrian services are likely to operate once introduced. Does the ERMTS? work on both the North and South legs from Mach'? Which units are to be fitted with this, 197/0 or 197/1 or both? The Brum International used to be 4 car units which split at Mach'. Is this likely to continue or are we likely to get 5 or 6 car units? Does the Mach to Aber leg warrant a 3 car unit?

 

[87electric]

It’s only 197/0 that will be fitted out with ETCS. 21 units (003, 022-041) as far as I know.

 

[nigelsporne]

It’s only 197/0 that will be fitted out with ETCS. 21 units (003, 022-041) as far as I know.

Thank you.

 

[Bikeman78]

Can somebody please explain to me how the Cambrian services are likely to operate once introduced. Does the ERMTS? work on both the North and South legs from Mach'? Which units are to be fitted with this, 197/0 or 197/1 or both? The Brum International used to be 4 car units which split at Mach'. Is this likely to continue or are we likely to get 5 or 6 car units? Does the Mach to Aber leg warrant a 3 car unit?

I would expect the timetable and unit workings to be similar to now. No doubt non ERTMS units will substitute, like the 150s do now, with units swapping at Shrewsbury as required.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why was the Cambrian fitted with ETCS anyway? It's better to have one cohesive signalling system, except for new builds like HS1 or the Elizabeth line core or the Heathrow spur, why on an existing line, and a very rural one at that?

ETCS will spread round the UK gradually, on the basis that is is cheaper than classic resignalling (which is deemed unaffordable anyway).
After the ECML (South) project, TRU is likely to follow, plus (probably) WCML North (Warrington/Preston/Carlisle).
Once the Manchester area gets it all TOCs will need ETCS-fitted trains, including those running TfW's services into Manchester.

 

[oglord]

Looks like 1W57 has failed at Moorland Road junction just out of CDF. It has been sat there since 11:03 with a 1Z99 now behind it. Rescued by 1:30pm.

 

[MP393]

Looks like 1W57 has failed at Moorland Road junction just out of CDF. It has been sat there since 11:03 with a 1Z99 now behind it. Rescued by 1:30pm.

It has, but it’s a mk4/67 not a CAF unit and is being discussed in the appropriate thread

 

[The_Train]

It has, but it’s a mk4/67 not a CAF unit and is being discussed in the appropriate thread

It was of course, replaced by a CAF unit from Crewe to Manchester and for the remaining diagram - much to my disgust as I was hoping for some 67 mileage

It did, however, give me a chance for a reasonable run on a 197 with a return run between Crewe-Manchester and the best I could offer is a "meh" response to the units. The seats are certainly on the level of the refurb Pendo's instead of IETs but even after 90 minutes on board, my back and bum were suffering a bit. They are bright inside, look decent for a new unit on the outside but ultimately they sound like a bus when accelerating

 

[BillStampy]

Since this is a 150 + 197 (not compatiable) which is going to go to Gloucester? Is this the clearance for Gloucester/Maesteg services for the 197 fleet? I think its just a matter of seeing how it is pathed later today, but at the time of posting, it is 150252 front, 197019 back.

Realtime Trains | 2G76 2318 Cardiff Central to Gloucester | 20/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 2G76 2318 departure from Cardiff Central to Gloucester on 20/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

EDIT: No longer 197, just 150252. Cheers!