CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Bletchleyite]

These trains will be used on some very scenic routes. Some people will be making the trips because of the scenery. If they have paid money and are stuck behind a pillar - they won’t be happy. If they see people already occupying the seats with a view and just working on computers or staring at phones - they will be even more unhappy.

Seat selectors help there, but it doesn't help that none of them show the window positions! Come on TOCs, it's not hard.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Just a quicky with regards to the coupler issue, just had a look at some photos and the electrical connection is at the top on a 195 and the bottom on a 196/197

 

[Bikeman78]

Yes, although some have said that the bogies offer poor ride the class 397 does seem to be a decent train in most respects (aside from the hard seats which were chosen by the operator, chossing CAF doesn't dictate those seats) from what I've read, though I haven't managed to get a ride on one.

I don't recall the ride being particularly bad. It was just a typical modern train with rather hard seats but at least I could look out of the window. They have smoother brakes than the 195s too.

I really can't see the public saying 'let's not take that TfW train because you can't see out of the window!'
What i can see the public saying is 'hopefully i can get a seat on that TfW train rather than standing'
The busier trains will be commuters who really won't care. The quieter trains will have leisure travellers who will like a view. If the seat they have doesn't have a good view, they can probably just move!
It's really not that big a deal. Capacity over views wins here.

In the short to medium term, the busier trains will be going to seaside or tourist resorts in the summer.

 

[Caaardiff]

In the short to medium term, the busier trains will be going to seaside or tourist resorts in the summer.

OK, so put less seats on busier trains just so people can see out of the window? Makes sense

 

[berneyarms]

Not on the Cambrian, that's for sure. The number of coaches per train is expected to be the same as now and the seating capacity of a 197 is a fair bit less than the 158s the Cambrian has at the moment.

There are going to be more services on the Cambrian mainline too though - loadings will spread out as they did when the current timetable was launched.

 

[Bletchleyite]

OK, so put less seats on busier trains just so people can see out of the window? Makes sense

The answer is for the trains to be long enough. No 2-car trains should be being built in 2020.

Cramming people in is something you do on South East commuter services where you can't make the trains any longer other than at huge cost due to track layouts etc. And even that might be dead now.

 

[craigybagel]

The answer is for the trains to be long enough. No 2-car trains should be being built in 2020.

Cramming people in is something you do on South East commuter services where you can't make the trains any longer other than at huge cost due to track layouts etc. And even that might be dead now.

But, again, you'll only see 2 car sets by themselves on quiet sections of the network that don't need anything longer. Building them as 2 car sets gives the flexibility to divide sets (as required with the new timetable) and means you're not wasting too much assets on services that don't require more then 2 cars.


The trains will be plenty long enough.

 

[Caaardiff]

The answer is for the trains to be long enough. No 2-car trains should be being built in 2020

2 car units work on much of TfWs network, where 3 car would be overkill on many of the routes or even too long for many platforms. When it comes to the wider network, 2x 2 car units are perfect, whereas 2x 3 car units would be overkill, and also again possibly too long for some platforms on the main routes.

The most usually seen on the main routes at the moment are 3 cars, with some peak services in the North having 4 cars which met demand before covid. Should it be needed in the future the current doubled up 4 cars could be made 5 car and the current 3 cars could be doubled up to 4 car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But, again, you'll only see 2 car sets by themselves on quiet sections of the network that don't need anything longer. Building them as 2 car sets gives the flexibility to divide sets (as required with the new timetable) and means you're not wasting too much assets on services that don't require more then 2 cars.

The trains will be plenty long enough.

Says nobody who's ever used the Cambrian in August.

 

[Rhydgaled]

OK, so put less seats on busier trains just so people can see out of the window? Makes sense

Or keep the current trains; 158s have more seats than 197s and you can see out of the windows on a 158. 175s have the essentially same number of seats as 197s and if I recall correctly you can see out of the windows on a 175. Use 4-car 197s on Manchester-Llandudno to free up 175s to strengthen services elsewhere.

But, again, you'll only see 2 car sets by themselves on quiet sections of the network that don't need anything longer. Building them as 2 car sets gives the flexibility to divide sets (as required with the new timetable) and means you're not wasting too much assets on services that don't require more then 2 cars.


The trains will be plenty long enough.

The Cambrian Coast will be 2-car and the current 2-car 158s (with more seats) are nearly full at times (possibly even full and standing though I've not seen that myself)

 

[Bikeman78]

OK, so put less seats on busier trains just so people can see out of the window? Makes sense

I'm perplexed by this comment. Who said anything about fewer seats? It can't be difficult to have the windows the right size and spacing to match up with the seat layout. They managed it with the class 397s. Leisure travellers are more likely to want to look out of the window, especially on scenic routes. My little boy is four and spends a lot of time staring out of the window.

 

[py_megapixel]

Says nobody who's ever used the Cambrian in August.

Seconded!

On a 2-car 158 in the height of the tourist season on the Cambrian your chances of getting a seat essentially range from "probably" - if you go at an awkward time and don't mind a squeezing into an aisle seat next to a stranger - to near zero if you have any preferences whatsoever about where you sit, or travel at a busier time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm perplexed by this comment. Who said anything about fewer seats? It can't be difficult to have the windows the right size and spacing to match up with the seat layout. They managed it with the class 397s.

Worthy of note that CAF offers different window layouts, the Class 196 has different-sized windows and a slightly different door layout and so has better alignment.

Would be interesting to know if WMT paid extra for this, or if it's just a case of "what do you fancy?"

 

[Bikeman78]

Says nobody who's ever used the Cambrian in August.

Same goes for Chester to Llandudno in summer. They were even full this year, despite Covid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seconded!

On a 2-car 158 in the height of the tourist season on the Cambrian your chances of getting a seat essentially range from "probably" - if you go at an awkward time and don't mind a squeezing into an aisle seat next to a stranger - to near zero if you have any preferences whatsoever about where you sit, or travel at a busier time.

If we have to have 2-car on the Coast for good, which is a poor situation but may realistically be the case, they need to consider converting a subset of the units to a different layout - something more like the LNR Class 230 - with large standbacks, narrower 2+2 seating mostly in window-aligned bays, some longitudinal and lots of standing capacity. And two bogs, because all the kids will need a wee.

As they stand, the units ordered will not be suitable and will end up leaving people behind. And I think we can be reasonably sure that once COVID is no longer a major threat the holiday traffic will return.

 

[py_megapixel]

If we have to have 2-car on the Coast for good, which is a poor situation but may realistically be the case, they need to consider converting a subset of the units to a different layout - something more like the LNR Class 230 - with large standbacks, narrower 2+2 seating and lots of standing capacity.

The Cambrian will have its own subfleet anyway because it needs ETCS. So putting a different seating layout in those units probably isn't too much of a stretch.

 

[Bikeman78]

Worthy of note that CAF offers different window layouts, the Class 196 has different-sized windows and a slightly different door layout and so has better alignment.

Would be interesting to know if WMT paid extra for this, or if it's just a case of "what do you fancy?"

Interesting. Are there any pictures of the class 196 layout available?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Cambrian will have its own subfleet anyway because it needs ETCS. So putting a different seating layout in those units probably isn't too much of a stretch.

True, though I think the IC-like layout will be fine for Aberystwyth as that's gaining capacity by increasing the frequency. The Coast is getting no frequency increase (and there are limits as it's a single line) yet units with lower capacity than the current ones, which is unacceptable.

Interesting. Are there any pictures of the class 196 layout available?

I've not seen a seating plan but these pictures:

Side view of Class 196 vehicle - from WMT website

Class 196 interior showing seats aligned to windows - from Twitter

...should give you an idea.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Just a quicky with regards to the coupler issue, just had a look at some photos and the electrical connection is at the top on a 195 and the bottom on a 196/197

Correct. If they can couple, it'll be mechanical only. I guess you could fix that by modifying the Northern units.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

True, though I think the IC-like layout will be fine for Aberystwyth as that's gaining capacity by increasing the frequency. The Coast is getting no frequency increase (and there are limits as it's a single line) yet units with lower capacity than the current ones, which is unacceptable.



I've not seen a seating plan but these pictures:

Side view of Class 196 vehicle - from WMT website

Class 196 interior showing seats aligned to windows - from Twitter

...should give you an idea.

Aside from plug sockets, a vast downgrade from the 175s with their armrests and more tables.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Aside from plug sockets, a vast downgrade from the 175s with their armrests and more tables.

The armrests on the 175s are mounted so low on the seats they might as well not be there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do find the omission of armrests from the 196s odd given that the seats are spaced away from each other and the wall so there's room for them, and as people tend to be wider at shoulder level than at knee level there's not really any standing space lost by having them. But that aside, it doesn't detract from my original point which is that it's a CAF unit of basically the same type with seats aligned to the windows, which TfW could have specced.

The other good thing about the 196 is that the window all appear to be the same size, which must surely make the life of parts departments easier!

 

[Pete_uk]

Anyone see the new Confused.com advert with the train going over the bridge in the background? That looks like one of these trains.

 

[py_megapixel]

Anyone see the new Confused.com advert with the train going over the bridge in the background? That looks like one of these trains.

Is it this one?

If so, to me it actually looks a like a class 350 in factory plain livery, like when they were with TPE for the first time, possibly with slightly changed colours... though why that would be crossing a nondescript bridge in a nondescript city centre in 2020, I have no idea

 

[Kingston Flyer]

though why that would be crossing a nondescript bridge in a nondescript city centre in 2020, I have no idea

It is supposed to make you confused isn't it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looks like a model to me.

 

[py_megapixel]

It is supposed to make you confused isn't it!

Indeed... I wonder if Confused.com would insure a Desiro?

Looks like a model to me.

It's not clear to me what the alternative would be. Clearly just standing in front of a bridge and hoping that a train comes along at the right time is not an option for a professional production...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Use 4-car 197s on Manchester-Llandudno to free up 175s to strengthen services elsewhere.

175s are leaving the TfW network (or were due to do so under the K-A franchise).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not clear to me what the alternative would be. Clearly just standing in front of a bridge and hoping that a train comes along at the right time is not an option for a professional production...

Film one (we have timetables so we can know when one will be coming along ) and edit it in just as that model has been edited in?

 

[py_megapixel]

Film one (we have timetables so we can know when one will be coming along ) and edit it in just as that model has been edited in?

I'm no expert, but I'd have thought to get the model cleanly edited in it would have to be filmed against an evenly lit solid colour (i.e. a greenscreen) so that it the background can be "keyed" out? That could be difficult to accomplish on the actual railway.

Gosh, we really are going off on a tangent, aren't we!