CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Bob Price]

Saw 101 pass the Shrewsbury webcam. They look good and a five car setup will be a game changer on some routes.

 

[DanNCL]

197002 and 197101 (edit: likely 197001) passed each other just west of Chester about 10 minutes ago. A Mark 4 set passed the pair of 197s at the same time too, if anyone had been there with a camera that’d have been a good photo op to show the “upgraded” fleet for the North Wales Coast!

 

[wobman]

Maybe the driver meant in service for regular driver/guard training as apposed to passenger service.

TFW want the 197's in service on the Liverpool services in January ! Let's wait and see with that, I love a bit of optimism.

There are 3 sets delivered but only 002 is driven by TFW staff, so the DIs / CIs are learning to train up the traincrew at the moment.

 

[Envoy]

I note that West Midlands Trains do not have any of their 196’s in service despite having had many now delivered. Why would it be that TfW get some of the 197’s in service before the end of the year?

For publicity/demonstration purposes, they really ought to get a 3 car manufactured so that it can be joined to a 2 car unit. If people just see 2 car trains being delivered they will say - here we go again - being rammed into 2 coach trains! That would be a PR disaster for the introduction of the new fleet.

 

[wobman]

I note that West Midlands Trains do not have any of their 196’s in service despite having had many now delivered. Why would it be that TfW get some of the 197’s in service before the end of the year?

For publicity/demonstration purposes, they really ought to get a 3 car manufactured so that it can be joined to a 2 car unit. If people just see 2 car trains being delivered they will say - here we go again - being rammed into 2 coach trains! That would be a PR disaster for the introduction of the new fleet.

197101 has just been delivered, so CAF have delivered 2 X 2 car and 1 X 3 car 197 units now.

 

[PHILIPE]

197002 and 197101 passed each other just west of Chester about 10 minutes ago. A Mark 4 set passed the pair of 197s at the same time too, if anyone had been there with a camera that’d have been a good photo op to show the “upgraded” fleet for the North Wales Coast!

I don't understand how 197101 was west of Chester when it's at Crewe

 

[DanNCL]

I don't understand how 197101 was west of Chester when it's at Crewe

Which unit was it then if it wasn’t 101? It certainly looked like a 3 car to me.

 

[PHILIPE]

Which unit was it then if it wasn’t 101? It certainly looked like a 3 car to me.

I don't know as I 'm not the one who saw it. Where west of Chester was it. just outside Chester or Holyhead ? Unless it had been sent out from Crewe on arrival and no schedule set up.

 

[wobman]

I don't know as I 'm not the one who saw it. Where west of Chester was it. just outside Chester or Holyhead ? Unless it had been sent out from Crewe on arrival and no schedule set up.

I thought it was just 197001 with the CAF techs and ROG drivers and 002 with the TFW staff that are out and about, I may be wrong about that.
I thought 101 has just arrived from donnington terminal today and was on its way to Crewe, it was surprising to see it out on test so soon.

 

[DanNCL]

I don't know as I 'm not the one who saw it. Where west of Chester was it. just outside Chester or Holyhead ? Unless it had been sent out from Crewe on arrival and no schedule set up.

As I said in my original post, just outside Chester.

 

[craigybagel]

There definitely were two 197s out today West of Chester at the same time. One was 002 but I didn't notice in time if the other unit was a 2 or 3 car.

 

[PHILIPE]

As I said in my original post, just outside Chester.

We will leave it at that and agree to disagree

 

[berneyarms]

I can’t believe that a set on delivery from the manufacturer is going to go anywhere beyond the depot.

Also RTT shows it being hauled to the depot at the time when it’s alleged to be west of Chester.

I suspect eyes are playing tricks here.

Realtime Trains - 639E 1123 Donnington Rft to Crewe C.S. (L&Nwr Site)

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[DanNCL]

I thought it was just 197001 with the CAF techs and ROG drivers and 002 with the TFW staff that are out and about, I may be wrong about that.
I thought 101 has just arrived from donnington terminal today and was on its way to Crewe, it was surprising to see it out on test so soon.

There definitely were two 197s out today West of Chester at the same time. One was 002 but I didn't notice in time if the other unit was a 2 or 3 car.

I can’t believe that a set on delivery from the manufacturer is going to go anywhere beyond the depot.

Also RTT shows it being hauled to the depot at the time when it’s alleged to be west of Chester.

I suspect eyes are playing tricks here.

Realtime Trains - 639E 1123 Donnington Rft to Crewe C.S. (L&Nwr Site)

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

May well have been 001 then. I’d assumed 101 given it had been reported as passing through Shrewsbury earlier, looks like I’d put 2 and 2 together to get 3!

002 was the unit heading eastbound, it ran just in front of the mark 4 set from Llandudno Junction.

Seen at Chester this morning and at Llandudno Junction at lunchtime:

 

[Envoy]

197101 has just been delivered, so CAF have delivered 2 X 2 car and 1 X 3 car 197 units now.

Many thanks for the information. I would have thought that TfW would have told CAF to deliver the 3 car trains first so that they could get rid of the 2 car 175’s.

 

[craigybagel]

I can’t believe that a set on delivery from the manufacturer is going to go anywhere beyond the depot.

Also RTT shows it being hauled to the depot at the time when it’s alleged to be west of Chester.

I suspect eyes are playing tricks here.

Realtime Trains - 639E 1123 Donnington Rft to Crewe C.S. (L&Nwr Site)

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I didn't realise 101 hadn't even been delivered yet that would have been a conclusive answer!

 

[krus_aragon]

Many thanks for the information. I would have thought that TfW would have told CAF to deliver the 3 car trains first so that they could get rid of the 2 car 175’s.

In the (current) early days of introducing a new fleet, it's useful to have more cabs/units to train staff up as quickly as possible. The smaller units are better for that.

Assuming each new carriage takes a similar time to build, the first six carriages could give you two 3-car units to train staff on, or three 2-car units. The latter lets you get more drivers trained.

(You do also want at least one 3-car in the mix early on, so that a centre car design can go through mileage accumulation, and so that fitters can be trained on it. Hence 101's arrival.)

 

[Philip]

At this stage when are we likely to see these units start take over duties on the Manchester to North and South Wales diagrams?

Once they start on the Liverpool services should it be fairly quick progress on the other routes?

 

[craigybagel]

At this stage when are we likely to see these units start take over duties on the Manchester to North and South Wales diagrams?

Once they start on the Liverpool services should it be fairly quick progress on the other routes?

It's hard to say - but getting them in Liverpool services is a lot easier than the other routes. I think it'll be a fairly long wait before they spread their wings much further.

 

[wobman]

It's hard to say - but getting them in Liverpool services is a lot easier than the other routes. I think it'll be a fairly long wait before they spread their wings much further.

Yes the Liverpool route is ideal with just 1 drivers depot that drive the route and just 2 depots for the guards to train up in the units.

The services start and then finish at Chester, so easy to contain and if they fail there's plenty of 195's about to mechanically drag them out of the way if required.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes the Liverpool route is ideal with just 1 drivers depot that drive the route and just 2 depots for the guards to train up in the units.

The services start and then finish at Chester, so easy to contain and if they fail there's plenty of 195's about to mechanically drag them out of the way if required.

Will 195s be capable of coupling, even mechanically? I vaguely recall mention that the gangwayed Civity units had the couplers modified/inverted to make room for the gangway connection.

 

[aleandrail]

I didn't realise 101 hadn't even been delivered yet that would have been a conclusive answer!A

At Crewe yesterday

At Crewe yesterday

sorry, having a problem downloading

sorted the problem

 

[sd0733]

Will 195s be capable of coupling, even mechanically? I vaguely recall mention that the gangwayed Civity units had the couplers modified/inverted to make room for the gangway connection.

No they wont. There is compatibility with 196s and BSI adaptors to couple to 15x and 170 but that's all. No coupling to 175 or 195s

 

[Domh245]

Will 195s be capable of coupling, even mechanically? I vaguely recall mention that the gangwayed Civity units had the couplers modified/inverted to make room for the gangway connection.

The mechanical portion of the coupler appears to be similar (the 195s have a second circular portion above the 'ball and cup' which looks like a blanked off/non-functional second air connection) it's the electrical box that would cause issues. Slow drags with brakes isolated should be possible but nothing more I'd think

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No they wont. There is compatibility with 196s and BSI adaptors to couple to 15x and 170 but that's all. No coupling to 175 or 195s

Thought so, thanks. Just goes to show how short-sighted Northern's procurement was in (a) not specifying gangways; and (b) not fitting the couplers in the same orientation used on the gangwayed units. Presumably there's no reliability penalty for doing so, otherwise it wouldn't be done on the 196s and 197s either.

 

[wobman]

The mechanical portion of the coupler appears to be similar (the 195s have a second circular portion above the 'ball and cup' which looks like a blanked off/non-functional second air connection) it's the electrical box that would cause issues. Slow drags with brakes isolated should be possible but nothing more I'd think

I was told that you can withdraw the electrical boxes and mechanicaly couple the 195 & 197 units in an emergency.
The gangway caused the electrical boxes to be moved but not the coupler, that's the way they look.

 

[Neptune]

not fitting the couplers in the same orientation used on the gangwayed units.

Not really down to Northern how the couplers were fitted.

 

[Rhydgaled]

No they wont. There is compatibility with 196s and BSI adaptors to couple to 15x and 170 but that's all. No coupling to 175 or 195s

BSI adaptors? How capable are these - do they make a 197 able to multi with a 15x just as effectively as a 170 can multi with a 150 or is it more of an emergency low-speed drag kind of thing?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not really down to Northern how the couplers were fitted.

True, but if they work in either orientation it seems a bit daft to fit them in the more restrictive one. Sure, as Northern didn't order gangwayed units it doesn't matter initially... but if there's a follow-on order of units with gangways, the original units will need swapping over.

 

[Neptune]

True, but if they work in either orientation it seems a bit daft to fit them in the more restrictive one. Sure, as Northern didn't order gangwayed units it doesn't matter initially... but if there's a follow-on order of units with gangways, the original units will need swapping over.

But it still sounds like you’re saying it’s Northern’s fault which it plainly isn’t. It’s CAF who built them. If Northern had wanted to order gangwayed units (still don’t get this obsession with them) they would have done so or advised CAF that was a future intention so CAF would have built any non-gangwayed units with the same couplings, but they didn’t.

It just sounds like it’s the usual ‘Northern bashing’ post when it clearly isn’t.