CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Those unbearable announcements really grate, and it particularly annoyed me to see a video of the Liverpool - Chester unit yesterday (route entirely in England) and Welsh announcements preceding English when the train stopped at Liverpool South Parkway. I haven't got anything against the Welsh language and love the fact it's retained, but it said (horrible slowly as the new PIS does) "Dyma... Lerpwl Parcffordd De.... Diolch am deithio gyda Trafnidiaeth Cymru.... Croeso i Trafnidiaeth Cymru. Byddwn yn teithio i...... Gaer." and then by the time Elin started to speak the train was pulling off.

This already annoys me that it's this way round, because it renders the English announcement pointless if there's no time to actually say it before the train pulls off, and the proportion of people who understand Welsh and not English is going to be far, far lower than the proportion of people who understand English. Still, I didn't really make much of it, but while the train is in England it's absolutely bonkers - particularly so as this particular route doesn't even go into Wales...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those unbearable announcements really grate, and it particularly annoyed me to see a video of the Liverpool - Chester unit yesterday (route entirely in England) and Welsh announcements preceding English when the train stopped at Liverpool South Parkway. I haven't got anything against the Welsh language and love the fact it's retained, but it said (horrible slowly as the new PIS does) "Dyma... Lerpwl Parcffordd De.... Diolch am deithio gyda Trafnidiaeth Cymru.... Croeso i Trafnidiaeth Cymru. Byddwn yn teithio i...... Gaer." and then by the time Elin started to speak the train was pulling off.

This already annoys me that it's this way round, because it renders the English announcement pointless if there's no time to actually say it when necessary, but especially because the proportion of people who understand Welsh and not English is going to be far, far lower than the proportion of people who understand English. I didn't really make much of it, but while the train is in England it's particularly bonkers - in fact, this particular route doesn't even go into Wales...

SBB have this to a tee - in England, English should be first. In Wales, Welsh should be first.

I really dislike the voices though, they're both beyond dull.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

SBB have this to a tee - in England, English should be first. In Wales, Welsh should be first.

I really dislike the voices though, they're both beyond dull.

Replied here to keep the thread on-topic:

Welshwashing: TfW announcements

Split from the CAF Civity for TfW - Updates and Introduction thread Those unbearable announcements really grate, and it particularly annoyed me to see a video of the Liverpool - Chester unit yesterday (route entirely in England) and Welsh announcements preceding English when the train stopped...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[anamyd]

SBB have this to a tee - in England, English should be first. In Wales, Welsh should be first.

I really dislike the voices though, they're both beyond dull.

What's "SBB"?

 

[43096]

What's "SBB"?

Switzerland’s national rail company. Or if you prefer the full initials for different languages, SBB CFF FFS.

 

[Energy]

What's "SBB"?

Swiss national train operator.

SBB have this to a tee - in England, English should be first. In Wales, Welsh should be first.

I really dislike the voices though, they're both beyond dull.

I think it should be what the majority of the population can speak first. Id imagine there are a lot more people in Wales that can't speak Welsh than people in Wales who can't speak English.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Swiss national train operator.

I think it should be what the majority of the population can speak first. Id imagine there are a lot more people in Wales that can't speak Welsh than people in Wales who can't speak English.

Responded to this in the new thread

 

[Matt_pool]

I was on the 2047 Liverpool Lime Street to Chester service on Thursday which was operated by 197 010. I only went as far as South Parkway.

The trains are nice with more legroom than the 195's (I'm 6' 2" so it was noticeable to me) and the ride was also smoother than 195's, some of which make strange banging and knocking noises that sound as if the bogie is going to fall off!

One minor complaint about the 197 - the interior lights are far too bright, but I find that is the case with a lot of the newer trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is a real shame they went for the cheap direct option on lighting. The indirect lighting and spots in the 196 and 397 are much nicer.

 

[Mzzzs]

Surely the brightness of the lights can be adjusted by staff?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the brightness of the lights can be adjusted by staff?

I very much doubt that.

 

[anamyd]

...the ride was also smoother than 195's, some of which make strange banging and knocking noises that sound as if the bogie is going to fall off!

Interesting, I wonder if the 197s have larger capacity air suspension, like Sprinters, 175s, 170s etc.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Interesting, I wonder if the 197s have larger capacity air suspension, like Sprinters, 175s, 170s etc.

I would have thought 195 196 and 197 were identical below the solebar, apart from the electrical coupler boxes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would have thought 195 196 and 197 were identical below the solebar, apart from the electrical coupler boxes.

I did notice the 197 seemed to ride better than a 195, but it could just be that it was brand new and things hadn't had chance to get loose yet. Also I normally sit at the end of a 195 and sat in the middle of the 197, and that can make a huge difference - 350s are quite jittery at the ends but silky smooth in the middle.

 

[AlexNL]

The 195s (and with them, the 331s) were the first introduction of the Civity platform to the UK, with the first unit arriving for testing in the UK back in June 2018. The 197s were only ordered in October 2018, with the first unit arriving for testing in April 2021.

This intermezzo has given CAF a chance to gather data about how the units ride and behave on the actual Network Rail infrastructure. It would've been silly if they didn't take that chance.

 

[Ribbleman]

The 195s (and with them, the 331s) were the first introduction of the Civity platform to the UK, with the first unit arriving for testing in the UK back in June 2018. The 197s were only ordered in October 2018, with the first unit arriving for testing in April 2021.

This intermezzo has given CAF a chance to gather data about how the units ride and behave on the actual Network Rail infrastructure. It would've been silly if they didn't take that chance.

It would be nice to think that anything that they have learned could be applied retrospectively to the 195s and 331s. I’m not holding my breath though.

 

[craigybagel]

Draft 2023 timetables

TfW have posted their planned timetables for late 2023 when it's hoped all the 197s should be in service. This will see them on almost every route on the network, including those routes in South Wales that should eventually receive Stadlers. It also sees some, but not all of the planned timetable improvements expected in 2024.

 

[Anonymous10]

Draft 2023 timetables

TfW have posted their planned timetables for late 2023 when it's hoped all the 197s should be in service. This will see them on almost every route on the network, including those routes in South Wales that should eventually receive Stadlers. It also sees some, but not all of the planned timetable improvements expected in 2024.

Disappointing news that Pembroke Dock will continue with 153s for another 18 months

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 195s (and with them, the 331s) were the first introduction of the Civity platform to the UK, with the first unit arriving for testing in the UK back in June 2018. The 197s were only ordered in October 2018, with the first unit arriving for testing in April 2021.
This intermezzo has given CAF a chance to gather data about how the units ride and behave on the actual Network Rail infrastructure. It would've been silly if they didn't take that chance.

There's also the factor that recent CAF (196 and 197) deliveries have come from Newport rather than Zaragoza/Beasain.
Although it's difficult to know what any differences in the finished article might be, as they start from the same kit of Civity UK parts bar the front ends.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The build quality of 197011 is absolutely appalling, if that is any help. Shockingly bad. Stuff like marks around the window gaskets painted over in a different white paint to the colour of the interior panel and lots of scratches around the windows where a really bad job has been done of fitting. Not seen anything like that on 195s or 196s.

 

[NewClee153]

The build quality of 197011 is absolutely appalling, if that is any help. Shockingly bad. Stuff like marks around the window gaskets painted over in a different white paint to the colour of the interior panel and lots of scratches around the windows where a really bad job has been done of fitting. Not seen anything like that on 195s or 196s.

I have to agree. Albeit the Conwy Valley line isn’t the best litmus test, the ride quality of 011 was completely unacceptable, 195-esque

The jolting and knocking was oh so reminiscent of their northern sisters, and could even be heard in the middle of the carriage

People knock the class 150, but when it comes to ride quality, they more than hold their own given their age, compared to anything CAF have built recently, it’s like riding on a cloud

While the 196 isn’t the best ride, it’s nowhere near as bad as I experienced on 197011

 

[Techniquest]

You are all making me glad that TfW haven't yet got their act together and got them in service en-masse! I will be lucky where I am, in that I will have 67-hauled/pushed MK4s as well, but I am rather hopeful that the issues will be resolved by the time I get to ride on one!

 

[anamyd]

Draft 2023 timetables

TfW have posted their planned timetables for late 2023 when it's hoped all the 197s should be in service. This will see them on almost every route on the network, including those routes in South Wales that should eventually receive Stadlers. It also sees some, but not all of the planned timetable improvements expected in 2024.

I looked at the Aberystwyth-Birmingham International and Machynlleth-Pwllheli timetables and it looks like 197s. So sometime in the next 9 months or so, there will be 197 driver training on the Cambrian then?

I have no idea what's been happening with 197s on the Cambrian for the last 6 months since 197003 was delivered to Machynlleth and then ran to Aberystwyth in late May 2022. If anyone does know, I'd appreciate knowing as well.

 

[NewClee153]

You are all making me glad that TfW haven't yet got their act together and got them in service en-masse! I will be lucky where I am, in that I will have 67-hauled/pushed MK4s as well, but I am rather hopeful that the issues will be resolved by the time I get to ride on one!

Knowing that the 197s were taking over on the Cambrian line definitely softened the blow of Smethwick Galton Bridge losing the TfW stops.

I much prefer the 196s from my little experience. I certainly wouldn’t want to spend an hour or more on a 197

 

[L401CJF]

The first thing I noticed was the ride quality in comparison to the stuff I'm used to working and riding, but being CAF I was expecting it!

197s should be working a couple of Llandudno to Manchester diagrams from today, but I can't yet see if its the case as none of the allocations are loading yet.

Edit- 197006 booked to work 1H79 0552 CTR-MIA, out all day until Chester at 2050.

197004 working the Liverpools.

Unsure if any others out.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The first thing I noticed was the ride quality in comparison to the stuff I'm used to working and riding, but being CAF I was expecting it!

197s should be working a couple of Llandudno to Manchester diagrams from today, but I can't yet see if its the case as none of the allocations are loading yet.

197015 0743 Llandudno - Manchester Airport & so on
197006 1043 Llandudno - Manchester Airport & so on

197004 0638 Liverpool L. St. - Chester & so on

 

[L401CJF]

197015 0743 Llandudno - Manchester Airport & so on
197006 1043 Llandudno - Manchester Airport & so on

197004 0638 Liverpool L. St. - Chester & so on

Just submitted my edit as you posted, clearly missed 015 on my brief check!

Cheers!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Just submitted my edit as you posted, clearly missed 015 on my brief check!

Cheers!

Quite a novelty at this early stage of the introduction to note all four of these consecutive departures at a completely randomly chosen time at Helsby are 197s.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 197s are all 2-car workings - at least one would have been a 3-car 175 previously.
On the other hand, there are a couple of doubled-up 175s (4/5-car) on peak Manchester trains.
With 3x197s operating, there will be 3x175s freed up for other services.
The 4-car 158 peak Manchester workings are still there.
No Mk4s to/from Cardiff, so 175s are substituting.

 

[Anonymous10]

The 197s are all 2-car workings - at least one would have been a 3-car 175 previously.
On the other hand, there are a couple of doubled-up 175s (4/5-car) on peak Manchester trains.
With 3x197s operating, there will be 3x175s freed up for other services.
The 4-car 158 peak Manchester workings are still there.
No Mk4s to/from Cardiff, so 175s are substituting.

At the same time it's good the 197s are now on mainline services in North Wales