CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Philip]

When are the mk4s currently expected to enter service on Manchester-South Wales?

Also is North Wales to Manchester likely to have a similar 197 introduction date as South Wales to Manchester? I haven't seen any 197s on the Manchester to Chester route yet.

 

[craigybagel]

When are the mk4s currently expected to enter service on Manchester-South Wales?

Aiming for December.

Also is North Wales to Manchester likely to have a similar 197 introduction date as South Wales to Manchester? I haven't seen any 197s on the Manchester to Chester route yet.

I would expect it's likely to be earlier as crew training is less of an issue. Those involved are the same as those that currently work the most likely initial 197 services (Chester-Liverpool and Blaneau branch).

 

[Jacob Porrett]

That is wrong.

Chester - Liverpool is still programmed to be first, however there may be a slight change to that. It might be launched on a Welsh only route.

But it's definitely not Crewe-Salop.

Just have to wait and see. That info was something I got told.

That's great news, thank you. It's always good to hear positive comments about a company's ability to adapt quickly as well!

To be fair they have ramped up ffr/millage accumulation runs so anything could happen.

 

[Eccles1983]

Just have to wait and see. That info was something I got told.


To be fair they have ramped up ffr/millage accumulation runs so anything could happen.

I'd be astounded if it changes. I'd take your source with a pinch of salt - Crewe and Salop drivers have not even begun training. It is solely Chester and the Coast at the minute. Added to the fact that the coupling software still isn't working..........

Chester drivers "used" to sign the Salop Crewe Road but it was taken off many's cards.

There are huge problems with what you said. ECS is what I assume ETCS. That system is complicated to the extent that it hasn't been tested yet - it may take a complete switchover as the two methods of it are problematic. So the 158's will stay but not be blended. It will be a big switchover one day unless a workaround can be found.

 

[sd0733]

I'd be astounded if it changes. I'd take your source with a pinch of salt - Crewe and Salop drivers have not even begun training. It is solely Chester and the Coast at the minute. Added to the fact that the coupling software still isn't working..........

Chester drivers "used" to sign the Salop Crewe Road but it was taken off many's cards.

There are huge problems with what you said. ECS is what I assume ETCS. That system is complicated to the extent that it hasn't been tested yet - it may take a complete switchover as the two methods of it are problematic. So the 158's will stay but not be blended. It will be a big switchover one day unless a workaround can be found.

There's also Cardiff crews booked on both Crewe to Chester and Shrewsbury none of them are anywhere close to training on them.
Whilst nothing that cant be changed, The Heart of Wales as it stands interworks with the local so that's another obstacle.
They may be good routes for training but long way off passenger use for a variety of reasons.
None will be in service in May anyway, it's been said a long while ago that late June/early July are the Earliest likely to see any out and about properly. Tfw have no units handed over yet.

 

[craigybagel]

Just have to wait and see. That info was something I got told.

We also got told that the world would end in 2012. Being told something does not make it true, and I'm reasonably confident that the posters we have on this thread are more likely to be aware of what's going on with the 197s than your mysterious friend. But given how the plans have changed a bit, and how training is currently taking place on one of the routes you've mentioned, it's easy to see where confusion might come from.

 

[boby32]

What does this actually mean?

I guess it will be summer 2023.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

We also got told that the world would end in 2012. Being told something does not make it true, and I'm reasonably confident that the posters we have on this thread are more likely to be aware of what's going on with the 197s than your mysterious friend. But given how the plans have changed a bit, and how training is currently taking place on one of the routes you've mentioned, it's easy to see where confusion might come from.

Just striking up a conversation really.

 

[Wyrleybart]

We also got told that the world would end in 2012. Being told something does not make it true, and I'm reasonably confident that the posters we have on this thread are more likely to be aware of what's going on with the 197s than your mysterious friend. But given how the plans have changed a bit, and how training is currently taking place on one of the routes you've mentioned, it's easy to see where confusion might come from.

No Craigy !!! The world was going to end after 2359 on 31/12/1999 IIRC !!!!

Strikes me that at least 85ish% of the Cambrian drivers will needs to have been passed competent on the ETCS fitted class 197s, which will also have had to have their ETCS equipment signed off, beofre any kind of a switchover with the 158s. I foresee a couple of 196s spending a lot of time on shed at Machynlleth before that happens.

 

[sd0733]

No Craigy !!! The world was going to end after 2359 on 31/12/1999 IIRC !!!!

Strikes me that at least 85ish% of the Cambrian drivers will needs to have been passed competent on the ETCS fitted class 197s, which will also have had to have their ETCS equipment signed off, beofre any kind of a switchover with the 158s. I foresee a couple of 196s spending a lot of time on shed at Machynlleth before that happens.

As I understand the plans (which are regularly subject to change so could have by now!) The Birmingham to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli will temporarily be split with the Abers running as 197s and for a short time Pwllheli becoming a standalone 158 operated shuttle service.
I think this is well in the future though, plenty of routes we'll ahead in the queue.

 

[mmh]

As I understand the plans (which are regularly subject to change so could have by now!) The Birmingham to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli will temporarily be split with the Abers running as 197s and for a short time Pwllheli becoming a standalone 158 operated shuttle service.
I think this is well in the future though, plenty of routes we'll ahead in the queue.

I hope that doesn't happen. We all know what does when TFW change a service to be a "temporary shuttle."

 

[Doveymain158]

As I understand the plans (which are regularly subject to change so could have by now!) The Birmingham to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli will temporarily be split with the Abers running as 197s and for a short time Pwllheli becoming a standalone 158 operated shuttle service.
I think this is well in the future though, plenty of routes we'll ahead in the queue.

Tbh before we even think of them in service and crew training. Lots of night time testing on the Cambrisn will need to happen 1st.

 

[43096]

I hope that doesn't happen. We all know what does when TFW change a service to be a "temporary shuttle."

I don’t see how they have much choice, given the Aberystwyth unit comes back much sooner than the Pwllheli set. You’d soon end up with a 197 arriving to couple to a 158.

 

[Jez]

Funnily enough before Covid the 1830 was booked for a 2 car! As you might imagine it was routinely Full & Standing to Wilmslow at least if not Crewe.

This. Has a 197 even been South of Shrewsbury yet? Until Cardiff and Carmarthen training takes place 197s can't go on South Wales services, and that doesn't seem likely to start any time soon.

I caught the 1830 lots of times over the years before covid and it was always a 2 car, as you say it was always very busy. One of the worst I remember was a Saturday night i travelled from Manchester to Port Talbot on the 1830, there had been an event in Manchester and it was rammed until Crewe and busy until Shrewsbury. People couldn't get through the carriage to get to the toilet. After Shrewsbury it eased off lots and I actually got a seat. But on Thursday even as a 3 car it was fairly busy, some empty seats but every double seat had at least someone sat in it. Until Crewe then it really eased off a bit then got quieter the further South it went.

I think 5 car trains on this route is very long overdue. Even though it will be a while before the 197 can appear the sooner it can happen the better. So anything they can do to speed things would be helpful!

When on my journey the only place I saw some 197s were in sidings in Crewe.

 

[wobman]

No Craigy !!! The world was going to end after 2359 on 31/12/1999 IIRC !!!!

Strikes me that at least 85ish% of the Cambrian drivers will needs to have been passed competent on the ETCS fitted class 197s, which will also have had to have their ETCS equipment signed off, beofre any kind of a switchover with the 158s. I foresee a couple of 196s spending a lot of time on shed at Machynlleth before that happens.

The 197s on the cambrian will be the last route probably to see the 197s, there's infrastructure upgrades needed and only then can they go along the route and begin there training.
Remember mach and pwhelli drivers only sign that route, unlike other depots that sign multiple routes which makes training far easier.

 

[mmh]

I think 5 car trains on this route is very long overdue.

Wishful thinking I fear. What you'll end up with is 2 car trains, 3 if you're lucky, with fewer seats. But they'll be new, so that Welsh Government box is ticked.

 

[317 forever]

I may have been under a misapprehension regarding replacement TfW stock. I was expecting 197s on North & Mid Wales services, including those to Birmingham & Manchester, 231s on South Wales routes, Mk 4s on Carmarthen/Swansea - Manchester services and tram-trains on South Wales Metro, currently Valley Lines.

EDIT: Forgot about 230s on Wrexham - Bidston. Also, 197s may be needed for Cardiff - Wrexham General - Holyhead services rather than 231s.

 

[TravelDream]

I may have been under a misapprehension regarding replacement TfW stock. I was expecting 197s on North & Mid Wales services, including those to Birmingham & Manchester, 231s on South Wales routes, Mk 4s on Carmarthen/Swansea - Manchester services and tram-trains on South Wales Metro, currently Valley Lines.

The current plan is for the 197s to operate in North Wales, South to North services, on the Cambrian line and some Manchester services.
There are not enough Mark 4s to operate all the South Wales to Manchester services so it's not possible for that to happen.

Though I still think we will see the Mark 4s migrate to North-South services for political reasons more than anything else.

The Flirts are for specific routes in South Wales and will not operate as far as Swansea.

 

[317 forever]

The current plan is for the 197s to operate in North Wales, South to North services, on the Cambrian line and some Manchester services.
There are not enough Mark 4s to operate all the South Wales to Manchester services so it's not possible for that to happen.

Though I still think we will see the Mark 4s migrate to North-South services for political reasons more than anything else.

The Flirts are for specific routes in South Wales and will not operate as far as Swansea.

Thank you for clarifying this.

Given that some routes are certain to be 197, I hope it will be easy to find out which services are Mk 4 once they are in service.

I am considering going to Runcorn East (or Chester) on the August Bank Holiday. I realise it may be a bit soon for the 197s to be in service there by then.

 

[sd0733]

I may have been under a misapprehension regarding replacement TfW stock. I was expecting 197s on North & Mid Wales services, including those to Birmingham & Manchester, 231s on South Wales routes, Mk 4s on Carmarthen/Swansea - Manchester services and tram-trains on South Wales Metro, currently Valley Lines.

EDIT: Forgot about 230s on Wrexham - Bidston. Also, 197s may be needed for Cardiff - Wrexham General - Holyhead services rather than 231s.

That seems fairly accurate although 231s have never been planned for Holyheads, AFAIK they're for 170 replacement on Ebbw/Cheltenham and Maesteg.

Not sure on the number of 231s etc but on the 197 front there are 77 197s and 4 additional mk4 sets so 81 mostly bigger units to replace 69 (18 153s, 24 158s and 27 175s) so hopefully the increase in capacity will be noticeable.

 

[craigybagel]

Not sure on the number of 231s etc but on the 197 front there are 77 197s and 4 additional mk4 sets so 81 mostly bigger units to replace 69 (18 153s, 24 158s and 27 175s) so hopefully the increase in capacity will be noticeable.

New mainline fleet:
197s will 51 X 2 car + 26 X 3 car = 180 cars
MKIVs will be 7 X 5 car = 35 cars

These are replacing:
153s are 18 X 1 car = 18 cars (not all of which are on Mainline services)
158s are 24 X 2 car = 48 cars
175s are 11 X 2 car + 16 X 3 car = 70 cars

Even once you add in the odd 150 that escape the Valleys and end up on Mainline services each day you can see it's still a massive increase in the Mainline fleet.

 

[krus_aragon]

I don’t see how they have much choice, given the Aberystwyth unit comes back much sooner than the Pwllheli set. You’d soon end up with a 197 arriving to couple to a 158.

If you've got the full 158 fleet (non-Cambrian routes all replaced with 197s) and some ETCS 197s at your disposal, that'd be plenty of stock to do extended layovers / stepping back to make the diagrams work.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

New mainline fleet:
197s will 51 X 2 car + 26 X 3 car = 180 cars
MKIVs will be 7 X 5 car = 35 cars

These are replacing:
153s are 18 X 1 car = 18 cars (not all of which are on Mainline services)
158s are 24 X 2 car = 48 cars
175s are 11 X 2 car + 16 X 3 car = 70 cars

Even once you add in the odd 150 that escape the Valleys and end up on Mainline services each day you can see it's still a massive increase in the Mainline fleet.

Looking at the proposed final fleet and the fleet TFW inherited from ATW there will be a huge difference.

Even taking into account the changes of the 170's no longer staying, the long term 153 use and extra mk4"s....

ATW: 134 trains (279 coaches)
TFW: 169 trains (471 coaches)

Things might change slightly if the 230's get binned off and the 197 order is increased though.

 

[Wyrleybart]

That seems fairly accurate although 231s have never been planned for Holyheads, AFAIK they're for 170 replacement on Ebbw/Cheltenham and Maesteg.

Not sure on the number of 231s etc but on the 197 front there are 77 197s and 4 additional mk4 sets so 81 mostly bigger units to replace 69 (18 153s, 24 158s and 27 175s) so hopefully the increase in capacity will be noticeable.

Are all the 153s to be withdrawn though ? IIRC the original TfW plan was for the ex GA 170s to replace older units in a kind of two stage offensive. First stage is doing what they are doing now, but once the Stadlers were delivered the 170s were going to migrate to the HoWL and Salop Crewe diagrams.

I believe someone either leant on TfW or offered them a good deal to lose the 170s to EMR and retain and refurbish some 153s instead, and AIUI the 170s were going to be long term "keepers" for TfW. Based on that I perhaps mistakenly understand the HoWL won't be using 197s, because back then it wasn't going to. I realise TfW have been through innumerable rolling stock iterations since

 

[craigybagel]

Are all the 153s to be withdrawn though ? IIRC the original TfW plan was for the ex GA 170s to replace older units in a kind of two stage offensive. First stage is doing what they are doing now, but once the Stadlers were delivered the 170s were going to migrate to the HoWL and Salop Crewe diagrams.

I believe someone either leant on TfW or offered them a good deal to lose the 170s to EMR and retain and refurbish some 153s instead, and AIUI the 170s were going to be long term "keepers" for TfW. Based on that I perhaps mistakenly understand the HoWL won't be using 197s, because back then it wasn't going to. I realise TfW have been through innumerable rolling stock iterations since

Some 153s are being kept for HOWL (and possibly but not confirmed yet Shrewsbury-Crewe locals). All other routes that were planned to get 170s (basically the West Wales branches) are now getting 197s instead freed up by the use of the extra MKIVs on Manchester services.

 

[sd0733]

Are all the 153s to be withdrawn though ?

IIRC there's 8 units being retained out of the current fleet which I believe is 26 so 18 will be taken out of the fleet.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

153918
968
972
982
303
312
327
353
362
Are staying.

 

[boby32]

That seems fairly accurate although 231s have never been planned for Holyheads, AFAIK they're for 170 replacement on Ebbw/Cheltenham and Maesteg.

Not sure on the number of 231s etc but on the 197 front there are 77 197s and 4 additional mk4 sets so 81 mostly bigger units to replace 69 (18 153s, 24 158s and 27 175s) so hopefully the increase in capacity will be noticeable.

There will be 11 class 231.

https://www.modernrailways.com/article/tfw-diesel-flirts-may-start-rhymney-line

If you wish to discuss about class 231, then go to this thread.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/transport-for-wales-class-231-756-flirts.220379/

 

[Jez]

Wishful thinking I fear. What you'll end up with is 2 car trains, 3 if you're lucky, with fewer seats. But they'll be new, so that Welsh Government box is ticked.

I think its more than wishful thinking! At least I hope it is. We were told all Swansea to Manchesters would be 5 car with one carriage first class (or part of a carriage). Going further west to MIlford they would lose carriages so either 2 or 3 cars west of Swansea. I would certainly hope for better than a 2 car as they might as well keep the 175s!

Re the 153s I think 8 was what ATW had for many years and what TFW inherited. Unsure If it's the original 8 being retained but I think 8 is enough for HOW and Crewe local plus assume a few Cardiff to Swansea services to move them to and from Canton.

 

[animationmilo]

153918
968
972
982
303
312
327
353
362
Are staying.

968 and 972 dont have the big toilets but 918 and 982 will be returning as 3s