CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Bletchleyite]

4tph Merseyrail trumps 1tph (1tp2h currently) TfW most of the time, with a similar journey time.
Merseyrail also delivers more passengers to Chester than any other operator.

0tph until the 175s are all checked and fixed I believe.

Also don't forget force of habit. Plus Merseyrail offers a choice of four city centre stations, which may save 15 minutes' walk.

 

[Jamesrob637]

People criticise 2-car units however one of the advantages thereof is the ability to still run a 2 car service in case of a fault. No diagram should be booked 2-car, however.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People criticise 2-car units however one of the advantages thereof is the ability to still run a 2 car service in case of a fault. No diagram should be booked 2-car, however.

To be fair both the Conwy Valley and the Borderlands are fine with 2-car units.

 

[Caaardiff]

People criticise 2-car units however one of the advantages thereof is the ability to still run a 2 car service in case of a fault. No diagram should be booked 2-car, however.

There is a large part of TfW's network that work just fine as 2 car.
Blaenau Branch (1 diagram)
Chester - Liverpool (Eventually 2 diagrams)
Bidston (4 diagrams)
Crewe - Shrewsbury (1 diagram)
Heart of Wales (4, maybe 5 diagrams - 153's for now)
West Wales - Pembroke Dock / Fishguard Harbour (Not even sure but probably comes to around 5 diagrams)

All other parts of the network has the potential to double up to 4 or 5 car with flexibility in the fleet to not provide unnecessary capacity on certain routes.

Where TFW missed the mark was not upgrading Cambrian ETCS trains to 3 car.

 

[Dai Corner]

There is a large part of TfW's network that work just fine as 2 car.
Blaenau Branch (1 diagram)
Chester - Liverpool (Eventually 2 diagrams)
Bidston (4 diagrams)
Crewe - Shrewsbury (1 diagram)
Heart of Wales (4, maybe 5 diagrams - 153's for now)
West Wales - Pembroke Dock / Fishguard Harbour (Not even sure but probably comes to around 5 diagrams)

All other parts of the network has the potential to double up to 4 or 5 car with flexibility in the fleet to not provide unnecessary capacity on certain routes.

Where TFW missed the mark was not upgrading Cambrian ETCS trains to 3 car.

Also Newport-Crosskeys, for which ticket acceptance on the parallel bus service more than suffices.

 

[william.martin]

A train enthusiast. She did the very first trip on a 197 back in November and did a you tube video


Had a feeling that would happen! Imagine doing that journey and being told to move to a 150! Feels like it's taking forever to roll out these 197s.

Yep, 150280 heading south from there.

 

[Rhydgaled]

There is a large part of TfW's network that work just fine as 2 car.

[snip]

West Wales - Pembroke Dock / Fishguard Harbour (Not even sure but probably comes to around 5 diagrams)

Considering the services that exist west of Carmarthen, I think Pembroke Dock - Swansea every two hours requires 3 diagrams. The Milford Haven branch of course runs as a two-hourly extension of the hourly Cardiff/Manchester-Carmarthen service and as such (before the recent problems) receives 3-car 175s on some workings but is planned to be 2-car on virtually all services once the 197s have completely eliminated 175s. The 3-car 175s can sometimes be busy between Carmarthen and Haverfordwest.

Fishguard Harbour (at least before COVID) had/has a hotchpotch of workings interworked with other routes so working out how many diagrams it takes is not simple. For example a Carmarthen to Manchester service was extended to start back from Fishguard Harbour at 08:04 (later retimed to 07:53ish to provide a more-useful commuter arrival in Carmarthen) and the following 09:56 Fishguard Harbour to Carmarthen was/is worked by one of the 150s from the Pembroke Dock pattern (it then did/does a Carmarthen to Pembroke Dock trip if I recall correctly).

 

[Jez]

There is an interesting article in the latest 'Todays Railways' magazine which went on sale this week. Comparisons between the 3 types of CAF units - 195, 196 and 197. General opinion seems to be the 197 is by far the best of the 3. The main gripe with the 197 seems to be the space wasted for the catering area. Ive only been on a 195 and 197 so far, not been on a 196. But the 197 wins over the 195 by a mile.

There is also an article about the FLIRTS, mainly about the introduction of the 231s. Handy having 2 artciles in the same issue as I usually only buy it when there is something TFW related.

 

[krus_aragon]

Also Newport-Crosskeys, for which ticket acceptance on the parallel bus service more than suffices.

I've used that service twice, end-to-end (return) on business. Travelling north in the morning peak, and down in the evening, patronage felt very sparse: the old Cardiff Bay bubble unit would be more than ample!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

To be fair both the Conwy Valley and the Borderlands are fine with 2-car units.

The Conwy Valley uses a single train, and the Borderlands wasn't even intended for 197s to run, and still isn't really. Come September they'll only take up one of the four Borderlands diagrams. Not that I'm largely against 2 cars as long as they almost always couple them on the North of Shrewsbury - Cardiff core.

 

[Envoy]

How many 197’s are actually in service as of now? How many 197’s have been delivered to TfW and not in use - stored at various sidings?

 

[childwallblues]

0tph until the 175s are all checked and fixed I believe.

Also don't forget force of habit. Plus Merseyrail offers a choice of four city centre stations, which may save 15 minutes' walk.

But the TFW service only stops at four intermediate stations, Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn and Liverpool South Parkway.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

How many 197’s are actually in service as of now? How many 197’s have been delivered to TfW and not in use - stored at various sidings?

15 197s in service but can't help on the 2nd part.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

15 197s in service but can't help on the 2nd part.

15 in service and 15 loitering but that have been delivered

�

Unit Number		Delivered	In Service
197001		15/04/2021
197002		08/05/2021	13/01/2023
197003		01/10/2021
197004		10/11/2021	14/11/2022
197005
197006		?????	19/12/2022
197007	Happy Valley	08/09/2022	17/01/2023
197008		06/09/2022	12/01/2023
197009		22/08/2022	10/01/2023
197010		14/02/2022	02/12/2022
197011		14/03/2022	16/11/2022
197012		04/10/2022	10/02/2023
197013		30/06/2022	20/12/2022
197014		28/11/2022
197015		17/10/2022	19/12/2022
197016		10/01/2023
197017		10/11/2022	26/02/2023
197018		20/09/2022	05/01/2023
197019		01/12/2022	31/01/2023
197020		10/03/2023
197021		05/10/2022	26/02023

197024 was delivered sometime in Sept '22 but don't know the date

197042 was delivered on 13/02/2023

Unit Number	Del
197101	24/09/2021
197102	19/10/2021
197103
197104	16/02/2023
197105
197106	?????
197107
197108	07/03/2023
197109	17/02/2023
197110	09/12/2022
197111	21/12/2022
197112	20/01/2023

I'm unsure if 106 has been delivered yet. There are no three cars in service yet

 

[Envoy]

15 in service and 15 loitering but that have been delivered

�

Unit Number		Delivered	In Service
197001		15/04/2021
197002		08/05/2021	13/01/2023
197003		01/10/2021
197004		10/11/2021	14/11/2022
197005
197006		?????	19/12/2022
197007	Happy Valley	08/09/2022	17/01/2023
197008		06/09/2022	12/01/2023
197009		22/08/2022	10/01/2023
197010		14/02/2022	02/12/2022
197011		14/03/2022	16/11/2022
197012		04/10/2022	10/02/2023
197013		30/06/2022	20/12/2022
197014		28/11/2022
197015		17/10/2022	19/12/2022
197016		10/01/2023
197017		10/11/2022	26/02/2023
197018		20/09/2022	05/01/2023
197019		01/12/2022	31/01/2023
197020		10/03/2023
197021		05/10/2022	26/02023

197024 was delivered sometime in Sept '22 but don't know the date

197042 was delivered on 13/02/2023

Unit Number	Del
197101	24/09/2021
197102	19/10/2021
197103
197104	16/02/2023
197105
197106	?????
197107
197108	07/03/2023
197109	17/02/2023
197110	09/12/2022
197111	21/12/2022
197112	20/01/2023

I'm unsure if 106 has been delivered yet. There are no three cars in service yet

Many thanks for the info.

 

[60159]

Reported in 196 forum a further 16 at Donnington which I’m assuming aren’t delivered but could be wrong.
So not far short of 2/3 built.
Does anyone know if there are any at Worksop or anywhere else?

 

[Roger B]

15 in service and 15 loitering but that have been delivered

�

Unit Number		Delivered	In Service
197001		15/04/2021
197002		08/05/2021	13/01/2023
197003		01/10/2021
197004		10/11/2021	14/11/2022
197005
197006		?????	19/12/2022
197007	Happy Valley	08/09/2022	17/01/2023
197008		06/09/2022	12/01/2023
197009		22/08/2022	10/01/2023
197010		14/02/2022	02/12/2022
197011		14/03/2022	16/11/2022
197012		04/10/2022	10/02/2023
197013		30/06/2022	20/12/2022
197014		28/11/2022
197015		17/10/2022	19/12/2022
197016		10/01/2023
197017		10/11/2022	26/02/2023
197018		20/09/2022	05/01/2023
197019		01/12/2022	31/01/2023
197020		10/03/2023
197021		05/10/2022	26/02023

197024 was delivered sometime in Sept '22 but don't know the date

197042 was delivered on 13/02/2023

Unit Number	Del
197101	24/09/2021
197102	19/10/2021
197103
197104	16/02/2023
197105
197106	?????
197107
197108	07/03/2023
197109	17/02/2023
197110	09/12/2022
197111	21/12/2022
197112	20/01/2023

I'm unsure if 106 has been delivered yet. There are no three cars in service yet

Thanks for these. I have 197006 delivered on 24/11/21 - being the date is was first reported as being at Castle Donnington (per post #1,555 of this thread). Although this may be erroneous as whilst it had been delivered from the factory, it hadn't been delivered to TfW (it seems I'm not always consistent either!).

It seems to me that the definition of 'date delivered' isn't consistent across threads in this forum and other railway sites and publications - similar to what constitues a train being withdrawn (off-lease / stored (un)/serviceable, etc). I get the impression that for 'date delivered' most use date delivered to TOC/FOC - but sometimes it seems date delivered from the factory or date delivered into storage or some other criteria is used - with variations covering mileage accumulation / shakedown running, etc. And then there's date accepted by the TOC, date the TOC starts paying the lease for the unit as well - although these are probably more related to 'date into service' - which is also blurred - with some sites, not all, using first day in public service, and others using dates relating to legal / financial status.

Looking at the content of this site, and others, I reckon the criterion that's generally used for 'date delivered' that's used is date delivered to TOC, although date delivered into storage seems to be used quite a bit, and other criteria as well.

I'd be very interested to know what criteria you use for determining 'date delivered' - and also from anyone else - it would be good if there was some consensus as to how this is recorded. Or perhaps there is - and I'm just over-complicating things!

Many thanks

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Thanks for these. I have 197006 delivered on 24/11/21 - being the date is was first reported as being at Castle Donnington (per post #1,555 of this thread). Although this may be erroneous as whilst it had been delivered from the factory, it hadn't been delivered to TfW (it seems I'm not always consistent either!).

It seems to me that the definition of 'date delivered' isn't consistent across threads in this forum and other railway sites and publications - similar to what constitues a train being withdrawn (off-lease / stored (un)/serviceable, etc). I get the impression that for 'date delivered' most use date delivered to TOC/FOC - but sometimes it seems date delivered from the factory or date delivered into storage or some other criteria is used - with variations covering mileage accumulation / shakedown running, etc. And then there's date accepted by the TOC, date the TOC starts paying the lease for the unit as well - although these are probably more related to 'date into service' - which is also blurred - with some sites, not all, using first day in public service, and others using dates relating to legal / financial status.

Looking at the content of this site, and others, I reckon the criterion that's generally used for 'date delivered' that's used is date delivered to TOC, although date delivered into storage seems to be used quite a bit, and other criteria as well.

I'd be very interested to know what criteria you use for determining 'date delivered' - and also from anyone else - it would be good if there was some consensus as to how this is recorded. Or perhaps there is - and I'm just over-complicating things!

Many thanks

My date delivered dates are the dates they were delivered from Donny to Crewe. In service dates are exactly as it sounds, the date that they were first used in passenger service

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Thanks for these. I have 197006 delivered on 24/11/21 - being the date is was first reported as being at Castle Donnington (per post #1,555 of this thread). Although this may be erroneous as whilst it had been delivered from the factory, it hadn't been delivered to TfW (it seems I'm not always consistent either!).

It seems to me that the definition of 'date delivered' isn't consistent across threads in this forum and other railway sites and publications - similar to what constitues a train being withdrawn (off-lease / stored (un)/serviceable, etc). I get the impression that for 'date delivered' most use date delivered to TOC/FOC - but sometimes it seems date delivered from the factory or date delivered into storage or some other criteria is used - with variations covering mileage accumulation / shakedown running, etc. And then there's date accepted by the TOC, date the TOC starts paying the lease for the unit as well - although these are probably more related to 'date into service' - which is also blurred - with some sites, not all, using first day in public service, and others using dates relating to legal / financial status.

Looking at the content of this site, and others, I reckon the criterion that's generally used for 'date delivered' that's used is date delivered to TOC, although date delivered into storage seems to be used quite a bit, and other criteria as well.

I'd be very interested to know what criteria you use for determining 'date delivered' - and also from anyone else - it would be good if there was some consensus as to how this is recorded. Or perhaps there is - and I'm just over-complicating things!

Many thanks

None have gone to Castle Donnington, its Donnington Rft near Telford.

Reported in 196 forum a further 16 at Donnington which I’m assuming aren’t delivered but could be wrong.
So not far short of 2/3 built.
Does anyone know if there are any at Worksop or anywhere else?

None at any other storage site. Only one is Donnington Rft. Some at Wolverton for modifications.

 

[60159]

None have gone to Castle Donnington, its Donnington Rft near Telford.

None at any other storage site. Only one is Donnington Rft. Some at Wolverton for modifications.

Thanks. Do you agree just under2/3 built and left factory.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Where TFW missed the mark was not upgrading Cambrian ETCS trains to 3 car.

Isn’t the issue that some Aberystwyth portions will be 4 car, and 7 car is too long for almost all platforms bar Wolverhampton and Birmingham - and maybe Shrewsbury. I know they’ve got gangways, but hanging off almost every station seems ridiculous.

 

[Caaardiff]

197's have ASDO so short platforms shouldn't be as big an issue. 6 cars is too long for most platforms without ASDO.
4 cars isn't needed to Aberystwyth the majority of the time. But in summer the Cambrian line is desperate for capacity upgrade.

 

[RailWonderer]

I'm not able to read 100+ pages of posts but is there any word on the status of the 197 subclass that will run the Manchester - Cardiffs that will have first class?
Also why will some units have ETCS and some won't? Unless installation is a huge cost woudn't it be operationally inconvenient when it comes to substitutions?

 

[craigybagel]

Isn’t the issue that some Aberystwyth portions will be 4 car, and 7 car is too long for almost all platforms bar Wolverhampton and Birmingham - and maybe Shrewsbury. I know they’ve got gangways, but hanging off almost every station seems ridiculous.

197's have ASDO so short platforms shouldn't be as big an issue. 6 cars is too long for most platforms without ASDO.
4 cars isn't needed to Aberystwyth the majority of the time. But in summer the Cambrian line is desperate for capacity upgrade.

If you're talking about between Shrewsbury and Birmingham International, Wellington is the only TfW served station with a 6 car limit since the switch from Smethwick Galton Bridge to Sandwell & Dudley. All other stations can handle much more. The Bay platforms at Shrewsbury are max 5, but they obviously can't handle the current 6 car services either.

 

[Jez]

But the TFW service only stops at four intermediate stations, Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn and Liverpool South Parkway.

That was my thinking. Surely the service should be more appealing than Merseyrail. Ive used Merseyrail in the past Chester to Liverpool and cant remember how many stops it was but it seemed a lot.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I'm not able to read 100+ pages of posts but is there any word on the status of the 197 subclass that will run the Manchester - Cardiffs that will have first class?
Also why will some units have ETCS and some won't? Unless installation is a huge cost woudn't it be operationally inconvenient when it comes to substitutions?

Point 1: only one has been built and is not yet on the network. It may be out and about soon though.
Point 2: Only a number of units will be fitted with ETCS, but all of the fleet will be ETCS ready meaning they can be fitted very quickly should the need arise to have ETCS fitted to more units. They'll be on self contained diagrams so I doubt it'll be too inconvenient.

 

[william.martin]

6 cars is too long for most platforms without ASDO.
.

All stations (exuding the local ones that they don't stop at anyway) on the Shrews to Wolverhampton route can take 6 carriages as occasionally 6 car 158's do it.

 

[Roger B]

My date delivered dates are the dates they were delivered from Donny to Crewe. In service dates are exactly as it sounds, the date that they were first used in passenger service

Thanks for the clarification - much appreciated. So it's the date delivered (either from factory or store) to operations, whether for training, mileage accumulation or whatever, rather than the date delivered to the TOC. Makes sense.

Back in the day we used to refer to Doncaster as Donny (eg 'Donny Works'), but then penny dropped - you're referring to Donnington Rff.

None have gone to Castle Donnington, its Donnington Rft near Telford.

My bad - thanks for correcting me.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

197044 was taken from Donnington RFT to Crewe Carriage Sidings L&NWR Site today. 66588 did the honours.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That was my thinking. Surely the service should be more appealing than Merseyrail. Ive used Merseyrail in the past Chester to Liverpool and cant remember how many stops it was but it seemed a lot.

15 stops to Lime St, if it's a stopper.
The route via Runcorn is more interesting and varied, with only 4 stops, but the journey time to Lime St is much the same.
Merseyrail has better connections along the coast and on the Wirral, TfW is better in south/east Liverpool.
Preference might change when through TfW trains run from the NW coast.
Currently you just cross platform to the first Liverpool service which is most likely to be Merseyrail.