CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Roger B]

Interesting flurry of movements of ERTMS-fitted sets.
It was suggested up-thread that these may be possibly introduced on other routes (with ERTMS isolated / not used) to help elleviate TfW's rolling stock shortage, prior to moving them on to their intended route, ie replacing the 158s linking the West Midlands with Machynlleth and Pwllheli.
Is this looking likely, and if so does anyone know how many units are involved and timescales, please?
I'm thinking of a visit to sample the 756s in action, and see the latest progress with the Taffs Well depot, and if introduction of the ERTMS-fitted 197s is imminent, perhaps I'll delay my trip until then.
Many thanks

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Interesting flurry of movements of ERTMS-fitted sets.
It was suggested up-thread that these may be possibly introduced on other routes (with ERTMS isolated / not used) to help elleviate TfW's rolling stock shortage, prior to moving them on to their intended route, ie replacing the 158s linking the West Midlands with Machynlleth and Pwllheli.
Is this looking likely, and if so does anyone know how many units are involved and timescales, please?
I'm thinking of a visit to sample the 756s in action, and see the latest progress with the Taffs Well depot, and if introduction of the ERTMS-fitted 197s is imminent, perhaps I'll delay my trip until then.
Many thanks

It was also said upthread that Chester is too full for that to happen though. And Mach isn’t ready.

 

[sd0733]

if introduction of the ERTMS-fitted 197s is imminent, perhaps I'll delay my trip until then.
Many thanks

It's fairly imminent, some should be out this month, not seen an exact date but things are certainly happening to get some out in service.

 

[Roger B]

It's fairly imminent, some should be out this month, not seen an exact date but things are certainly happening to get some out in service.

Many thanks SD0733

 

[Jez]

Some sprinters west of Swansea today too on the Pembroke line.

I suppose at least they are using the Sprinters on the routes that has limited impact. Both Swanline and Pembroke Dock were mostly booked Sprinters until about 5 months ago.

 

[Bikeman78]

I suppose at least they are using the Sprinters on the routes that has limited impact. Both Swanline and Pembroke Dock were mostly booked Sprinters until about 5 months ago.

Realistically, they will continue to substitute in south Wales until they are all gone. Cardiff and Carmarthen crew work them daily between Cardiff and Bridgend so both depots should retain traction knowledge.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The final hurdles have been overcome for 5 car Manchesters and they'll be officially permitted between Shrewsbury and Manchester from next week, 4th November will be the first day.

Will they be trying to make the 3 car units from those numbered 113 and above, or is it going to be a case of getting out what they can for a while first?

 

[craigybagel]

Interesting flurry of movements of ERTMS-fitted sets.
It was suggested up-thread that these may be possibly introduced on other routes (with ERTMS isolated / not used) to help elleviate TfW's rolling stock shortage, prior to moving them on to their intended route, ie replacing the 158s linking the West Midlands with Machynlleth and Pwllheli.
Is this looking likely, and if so does anyone know how many units are involved and timescales, please?
I'm thinking of a visit to sample the 756s in action, and see the latest progress with the Taffs Well depot, and if introduction of the ERTMS-fitted 197s is imminent, perhaps I'll delay my trip until then.
Many thanks

It was also said upthread that Chester is too full for that to happen though. And Mach isn’t ready.

The briefs for drivers to read are being distributed right now. We've not been given a date for it to start but the easiest time would be the next timetable change in December. There are extra stabling facilities available in Shrewsbury that weren't ready for the last timetable change and Crewe South Yard isn't being used to it's full potential as yet either.

 

[WAB]

Will they be trying to make the 3 car units from those numbered 113 and above, or is it going to be a case of getting out what they can for a while first?

I imagine that the planned diagrams will be set up for that, but the current situation of units being allocated which don't line up with the diagrams' booked traction will likely continue until the general fleet situation settles down.

 

[BillStampy]

Another dry day today! 1W54 is showing as a 150 and 2 153s from Cardiff, 1W55 is showing as 3x 153s! 1W56 as the MK4 replacement is 158829 too! Really not ideal. Although, wouldn't mind a 158 than a 197.

 

[Jez]

Realistically, they will continue to substitute in south Wales until they are all gone. Cardiff and Carmarthen crew work them daily between Cardiff and Bridgend so both depots should retain traction knowledge.

Agreed. And with 153s being signed by Carmarthen depot long term for the HOWL then they could end up as cover on West Wales services long term.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2024 ==

Another dry day today! 1W54 is showing as a 150 and 2 153s from Cardiff, 1W55 is showing as 3x 153s! 1W56 as the MK4 replacement is 158829 too! Really not ideal. Although, wouldn't mind a 158 than a 197.

They certainly seem short on 197s today. A bit like old times with Sprinter Sunday on the Marches!

A good number of Manchester-South Wales are pairs of 2 car 197s however.

 

[sd0733]

They certainly seem short on 197s today. A bit like old times with Sprinter Sunday on the Marches!

A good number of Manchester-South Wales are pairs of 2 car 197s hohowever

There's 44 diagrams of 197s today, 18 3 car and 26 2 car but only 40 available units from the 54 accepted.
Some of those paired are covering 3 car diagrams but are faulty and have to be paired to keep them out with various engine, cab and lighting faults.

Been a long while since 3 consecutive Manchesters have been 2 car 15x units, especially poor when all of them are substituting and should be a 4 car 197, 3 car 197 and 5 car Mk4 respectively.

 

[Lurcheroo]

only 40 available units from the 54 accepted

74% availability! Yikes.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Update from Donnington (3/11/24)

The recent addition to the Freight Terminal is TFW Class 197126.

The other 197s at the Freight Terminal are 3x 2 car 197/0s which have no identity on them.

4x 197s in total at the moment.

 

[Krokodil]

74% availability! Yikes.

When they said that the future service plan was based on better 197 availability than we got from the legacy fleet we laughed. It would have been more sensible to assume that the availability would have been the same (optimistic as that is at the moment) amd just consider any spare units due to better availability than predicted to be a bonus.

 

[172007]

All thus reinforces that we need a thread titled "CAF 19X" Unit issues"

All three fleets, 195, 196 and 197 are all struggling with poor availability and are really the same train. Just different sears, gangway, probably software tweaks and some Ertms thrown in.

 

[Caaardiff]

You'd think the software issues would have been ironed out on the 195s and mirrored into the design of the 196 and 197s.
But the build quality of these units are questionable, especially when things like wipers fall off at the slightest knock, or even for no reason at all.
Also where are the last 2 of the 3 cars? After 54 others have been delivered and are in service, you'd think the last few would be in good enough condition to be accepted.

With question marks over the number the ERTMs units being sufficient and the eventual replacement of 153s, do we think TFW could take on more 197s or even take on some 196s from WMR when they eventually get the 730s in service, rather than having more 197s built?

 

[172007]

I believe the low adhesion performance of CAF 19X's is not very good at all.

 

[Lurcheroo]

When they said that the future service plan was based on better 197 availability than we got from the legacy fleet we laughed. It would have been more sensible to assume that the availability would have been the same (optimistic as that is at the moment) amd just consider any spare units due to better availability than predicted to be a bonus.

Would certainly have been the sensible option!

I believe the low adhesion performance of CAF 19X's is not very good at all.

I hear different reports. I haven’t yet driven them so can’t speak from any experience. I hear some say they’re good in low adhesion whilst some say they’re worse. I wonder if it’s drivers not being used to them, time will tell.

 

[Krokodil]

I believe the low adhesion performance of CAF 19X's is not very good at all.

They're awful. At one point they brought back the 150s on the Conwy Valley because at least those stood a chance of getting up. Now there are frequent cancellations and delays due to slipping.

Would certainly have been the sensible option!

Lots of their plans got laughed at. The Alstom rep laughed when TfW said how many units would be accommodated at Chester, and asked if they had ever been there. "We've ordered short units so that we can couple them up into longer trains". Yeah, and you can also uncouple them when you're short, rather than leasing enough full-length trains to provide some spare cover. Funny how the 231s in the south are all four coach fixed-formation trains while staff in the north continue to take abuse for turning up in two-vice-four car sets.

 

[Caaardiff]

"We've ordered short units so that we can couple them up into longer trains". Yeah, and you can also uncouple them when you're short, rather than leasing enough full-length trains to provide some spare cover. Funny how the 231s in the south are all four coach fixed-formation trains while staff in the north continue to take abuse for turning up in two-vice-four car sets.

That's not strictly true and the real reasons have been covered time and time again. TFW ordered 2 and 3 cars for multiple workings that can then be split to work smaller lines. Had reliability of the 197's been better along with other fleet introductions being delivered on time then the capacity issues would be much different.
If you have 1 5 car train and it breaks down, then there's likely nothing else to replace it. If you have a 2 car and a 3 car attached and one breaks down, at least you can still run the service short formed.
In hindsight TFW would have been better off with a similar order to WMR and ordering 2 and 4 car 197's.

The 231's were originally ordered for Ebbw Vale and Maesteg work and will always start and end at Canton because the fuel range is terrible on them.
Train crew in the South also deal with lots of short formations, it's not a North vs South issue. North Wales actually see's more 3 and 4 car booked services than the South if you really want to delve into the detail.

 

[craigybagel]

Would certainly have been the sensible option!

I hear different reports. I haven’t yet driven them so can’t speak from any experience. I hear some say they’re good in low adhesion whilst some say they’re worse. I wonder if it’s drivers not being used to them, time will tell.

They're awful. At one point they brought back the 150s on the Conwy Valley because at least those stood a chance of getting up. Now there are frequent cancellations and delays due to slipping.

Yes and no when it comes to low adhesion, in my experience anyway. They're very light on their feet, and when you factor in the need to overcome the holding brake before you can move at all they're very easy to slip pulling away.

But on the other hand, they seem to stop better in low adhesion than anything else in the fleet. Their brakes are phenomenal, and the WSP does seem to allow you to use that ability a lot more without the wheels locking up than with what they replaced.

 

[Roger B]

The briefs for drivers to read are being distributed right now. We've not been given a date for it to start but the easiest time would be the next timetable change in December. There are extra stabling facilities available in Shrewsbury that weren't ready for the last timetable change and Crewe South Yard isn't being used to it's full potential as yet either.

Many thanks Craigybagel, very helpful.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Yes and no when it comes to low adhesion, in my experience anyway. They're very light on their feet, and when you factor in the need to overcome the holding brake before you can move at all they're very easy to slip pulling away.

But on the other hand, they seem to stop better in low adhesion than anything else in the fleet. Their brakes are phenomenal, and the WSP does seem to allow you to use that ability a lot more without the wheels locking up than with what they replaced.

I was going to say about overcoming the holding brake vs the sprinter Step1 + power method.
It’s Almost a shame that you can’t put them into a higher gear yourself, as you would in a car when trying to pull away on snow/ice.
My cars gearbox is also made by ZF and it has the capability to do so (flappy paddles on a 197 anyone?)

Whilst getting away is important, stopping when needed is much more important (as potentially highlighted by recent events).
Great to hear they do stop quite well even in low adhesion.

I do wonder if in addition to the modern WSP and variable rate sanders, the dynamic brake is a big help as it wouldn’t ‘lock’ the wheels like a friction brake would and once wheel rotation begins slowing then it’s effectiveness is reduced, essentially limiting braking force on those axles to only what is capable of being used (just a theory, so perhaps yourself or someone understands a bit more)

 

[Polarbear]

Spotted a pair of 153’s on a Cardiff-Manchester service on Sunday afternoon. Whilst some service is better than none, it’s far from ideal.

 

[irish_rail]

Yes and no when it comes to low adhesion, in my experience anyway. They're very light on their feet, and when you factor in the need to overcome the holding brake before you can move at all they're very easy to slip pulling away.

But on the other hand, they seem to stop better in low adhesion than anything else in the fleet. Their brakes are phenomenal, and the WSP does seem to allow you to use that ability a lot more without the wheels locking up than with what they replaced.

As a passenger it is noticeable that a lot of power is applied just to move off, despite slippery conditions leading to inevitable slippage. Your explanation explains why that is. Surely a design flaw that needs remedying?

 

[Krokodil]

TFW ordered 2 and 3 cars for multiple workings that can then be split to work smaller lines.

"Smaller lines" apparently including the Shrewsbury-Holyhead leg of the Birmingham services. Whereas the Cheltenham services will be formed of a four car 231 even if they're carrying one man and his dog.

If you have 1 5 car train and it breaks down, then there's likely nothing else to replace it.

I think that I covered that here:

rather than leasing enough full-length trains to provide some spare cover.

Multiple working also introduces more things which can go wrong.

If you have a 2 car and a 3 car attached and one breaks down, at least you can still run the service short formed.

Whereas if you have a spare full-length unit sitting in the yard you can continue the service without leaving any passengers behind.

Train crew in the South also deal with lots of short formations, it's not a North vs South issue. North Wales actually see's more 3 and 4 car booked services than the South if you really want to delve into the detail.

Will that be the case when the full Stadler fleet has settled into service?

 

[Caaardiff]

"Smaller lines" apparently including the Shrewsbury-Holyhead leg of the Birmingham services. Whereas the Cheltenham services will be formed of a four car 231 even if they're carrying one man and his dog.

This I agree with. The Cambrian and Shrewsbury-Holyhead lines have not got the uplift they deserve.

Not sure why the obsession with 231's though. Their fuel range is terrible and they won't even be able to do a full days work on Ebbw Vale and Maesteg services without dropping in for fuel, never mind long distance services away from their home Depot - They are Stadler, not CAF units.
Also, 4 car doesn't mean more seating capacity. A 231's carriage is shorter than a 197. A 4 car 231 has 171 seats whereas a 3 car 197 has 186 seats.

rather than leasing enough full-length trains to provide some spare cover.

But there will be fewer options for service recovery. A large fleet of DMU's will provide more spare cover. A smaller fleet of 5 car trains means fewer spares, reducing your options when things go wrong. They will also be fewer options across the country to recover the service when things go wrong. Under the current setup there are 197's all over which can step in and cover.

Whereas if you have a spare full-length unit sitting in the yard you can continue the service without leaving any passengers behind.

Great if the train breaks down near the home Depot. Pointless if it breaks down elsewhere.

Will that be the case when the full Stadler fleet has settled into service?

Yes, and it's been discussed to death, but i'll cover it again.

TFW's new fleet was all supposed to be in service by now, including the 398's. It's been a very over optimistic introduction.
150's were used on long distance services which has eaten up their remaining C exam mileage, so some have been scrapped.
769's were a disaster which is why the 231's were brought in early on Valleys lines rather than the lines they were planned for - Ebbw Vale & Maesteg. Because of this 197's have been needed to cover those lines, meaning 9 or 10 units working lines they weren't supposed to be on. Imagine what 9 or 10 197's would do to long distance services in North and South?
230's haven't been great, with 2x 197's covering Bidston services that weren't supposed to be there.

I am in no way defending TFW's decision making and planning, just putting some reality and perspective into what's going on.
The 756's should be in service this month. That's 24 units. No idea what is plan is, whether they will just free up 150's and 153's for Ebbw Vale and Maesteg, or the 231's will start to be moved over to those routes. I would imagine the 231's will remain on Valleys until the 398's come in and 150's and 153's will be moved to mainline. Ultimately freeing up 197's to do what they were planned for.

Throw into all that terrible reliability of 197's often means chronic shortages and short forms. Out of 54 units, planning for 10 to be stopped every day is terrible.

 

[60159]

Update from Donnington (3/11/24)

The recent addition to the Freight Terminal is TFW Class 197126.

The other 197s at the Freight Terminal are 3x 2 car 197/0s which have no identity on them.

4x 197s in total at the moment.

View attachment 168435View attachment 168436

Many thanks for that. Around 10 to leave the factory I would suggest.

 

[Bob Price]

034 is on a ROG run to Llandudno Junction from Crewe this morning. 3Q78