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CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

Caaardiff

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I thought about this over the last few days and last night came to the conclusion why only 2-3 ERTMS 197/0s in use ?.
There is a set requirement of non-ETCS units needed each day. If any of them are stopped with long term faults, I think 197101 and 197110 are two examples, they are being covered by ETCS units to make up the numbers.
Those ETCS units are supposed to be maintained by Machynlleth depot when in service. Chester don't have the capacity to maintain all of them.
Its down to maintenance capacity while balancing enough to cover the service.

Also how many ERTMS 197/0s are expected to stray in the future on a day to day basis onto non-Cambrian duties elsewhere in Wales ?.
None. With the exception of Birmingham-Holyhead as they tie in with the Cambrian routes.
What will happen in reality may be different, in the same way we see 158s on routes they aren't planned to be on.

I believe Maesteg to Ebbw.Vale.requires 4 diagrams plus Cardiff to Cheltenham 3 diagrams so 7 in total. Unsure if any of these are covered by Sprinters currently.as official booked workings or whether when a Sprinter turns up its simply cover for a 197.

I believe eventually this will lead to 3 or 4 extra 197s to cover long distance routes whilst the other 3 of the 7 will be included on the Cambrian Birmingham routes.
Correct. All covered by 197s. The only planned sprinters are Newport-Ebbw Vale, which will likely become 197s in the future.
So once 231s cascaded to their planned routes it should free up 5 197s.
To be fair, of the main routes nearly all South Wales-Manchester services are now 5 car. Chester-Manchester are now 3 car but more capacity to 4-5 car is needed here which is where the units from the South will be needed.
 
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Lewisham2221

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Don't think it's been mentioned yet, but it looks like there's a regular 197 diagram now on the Birmingham International - Holyhead circuit. It leaves Birmingham International at 0909 (to Holyhead) and 1808 (to Chester).
 

Topological

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Looking like some are needed to cover the Mk4s over the coming weeks too. The accident with set HD02 means that there is unlikely to be enough Mk4 to cover the 5 diagrams for some time.

It would be nice to think that would bring a couple out of storage rather than creating short forms.
 

tfw756rider

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I thought about this over the last few days and last night came to the conclusion why only 2-3 ERTMS 197/0s in use ?.
(I know they are reserved for the Cambrian Coast services)
I can see half a dozen or so have been used and last week your 2-3 was corroborated by me as 197024, 197029 & 197035 in use on Thursday, Friday & Saturday (22-24/05/2025).
As far as I know theres a certain amount of units from the ERTMS fleet required to be provided and they're cycled round just to keep them operational and that the ones at Holyhead are periodically run up to keep them working. Others can then be used to cover for other out of use units on top of that number.
I think TfW must be rotating the ETCS 197s through service to keep them "not cold stored" ?.
Will be interesting to see how long it takes for those sent back to Holyhead to reappear.

Also how many ERTMS 197/0s are expected to stray in the future on a day to day basis onto non-Cambrian duties elsewhere in Wales ?.
I recall reading somewhere, possibly in a Freedom of Information Request response, that Transport for Wales plan to use 14 units on a given day on the Cambrian circuit, leaving the remaining 7 (of the 21) to either be maintained or be "borrowed" by other parts of the network. I'm not sure that's quite right though?
(all motivated by - can us spotters not see more ERTMS 197s in Cardiff please :cake:)
What do you mean? Would you like to see more or less of them? Is there anything you dislike about them compared to the "error - ETCS not found" 197s? :lol:
Also where are the parked up locations of all these (18 odd) unused ERTMS 197s ?.
I know Holyhead seems to be one place (a long way from the centre of the universe in Cardiff, yeah I know Chester is their centro of orbit/depot !).
Do we have a list on here ?.
The likes of @sd0733 and @Jacob Porrett may jointly be able to put together a list.

Don't think it's been mentioned yet, but it looks like there's a regular 197 diagram now on the Birmingham International - Holyhead circuit. It leaves Birmingham International at 0909 (to Holyhead) and 1808 (to Chester).
Thanks for letting us know :)
 

Peter Sarf

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I recall reading somewhere, possibly in a Freedom of Information Request response, that Transport for Wales plan to use 14 units on a given day on the Cambrian circuit, leaving the remaining 7 (of the 21) to either be maintained or be "borrowed" by other parts of the network. I'm not sure that's quite right though?
That is quite a healthy quantity (1/3rd) likely to venture away from the Birmingham to/from Cambrian coast route.

Follows that that 1/3rd of the ERTMS ones are needed now but I guess no depot capacity until the alleged big bang of Cambrian switching over to ERTMS 197s and Machynlleth being emptied of ERTMS 158s ?.
What do you mean? Would you like to see more or less of them? Is there anything you dislike about them compared to the "error - ETCS not found" 197s? :lol:
Oops my bad grammar (I go edit). Would like to see more of the ERTMS 197s darn Sarf (Cardiff).
The likes of @sd0733 and @Jacob Porrett may jointly be able to put together a list.
Fingers crossed.
Thanks for letting us know :)
Yes thanks @Lewisham2221. So it seems a unique (daily) opportunity to get them away from Chester/North Wales.
 
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Peter Sarf

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According to RTT 197035 is on 2E60 1904 Milford Haven to Carmarthen tonight.
I noticed it (197035) was out out on Wednesday & Thursday (21 & 22/05/2025). I caught up with it in Cardiff on Thursday at 09:48 (ish) on the service from Milford Haven to Manchester. It was then next supposed to work from Manchester to Pembroke through Cardiff at 16:44 but I never checked it did.
 

nigelsporne

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Don't think it's been mentioned yet, but it looks like there's a regular 197 diagram now on the Birmingham International - Holyhead circuit. It leaves Birmingham International at 0909 (to Holyhead) and 1808 (to Chester).
This was a pair of 3 car units yesterday and a pair of 2 cars today. Is there a shortage of 158s or is this a permanent feature?
 

Anonymous10

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This was a pair of 3 car units yesterday and a pair of 2 cars today. Is there a shortage of 158s or is this a permanent feature?
Worth remembering 2 158s are long term, possibly permanently, out of use following a collision earlier this year. As such using 2 197s on this diagram likely allows enough units to be available for the Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth / Pwllheli services.
 

sd0733

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Jez

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Thanks for all the updates re the 197s.

Pleased to say I'm currently on a 5 car 197 1130.Manchester to Milford (going to Neath). Definitely much better plenty of space and spare seats.
 

Peter Sarf

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...........................

ill try and have a look when I get chance.
I having been looking out for ETCS 197s (003, 022-042) on RTT late last week. I noticed only 197024, 197028 and 197035 currently in use Wednesday - Saturday (21-24). Which fits with other posts of two - three in use. All ran through Cardiff except 197024 was in North and Mid Wales until Saturday (which I had to miss !).

As far as I know the only nine ETCS 197s that have been used at all are :-
197003, 197024, 197028, 197029, 197030, 197031, 197033, 197034 & 197035.

I read up-thread that the ETCS 197s have to have a modification to TEMPORARILY disable the ETCS so drivers with no ETCS training do not have to learn the bit about turning ETCS off and on. If that is true then I guess the above nine units are more likely to get early periodic use than those twelve that have not been temporarily modified.

How true is the above and how big a deal is it learning to turn ETCS off ?.
I might guess the snag is a driver not encountering the need for more than six months so that bit of knowledge is expired.
I can also ponder that the ETCS is not thoroughly tested enough to cope with being, erm, turned off !.

EDITed - A little voice in my head says ERTMS is more correctly ETCS.
EDITed - nine not seven ETCS ones used.
 
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sd0733

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Piecing together the bits on the ERTMS sets, this seems to be the current status. Anything shown as Unknown im not too sure where they are.

If anyone else knows anymore about them I'll amend this post.

197022- Accepted, Not yet used- Stored Holyhead
197023- ATC Crewe Commisioning/mileage accumulation
197024- Accepted- In service
197025- Unknown
197026- Has visited Crewe ATC. Current status and whereabouts Unknown, possible stored in Crewe SY
197027- Accepted, Not yet used- Stored Holyhead
197028- Accepted, been in service but now stored Holyhead
197029- Accepted- In Service
197030- Accepted- been in service but now stored Holyhead
197031- Accepted- been in service but now stored Holyhead
197032- ATC Crewe commissioning/milage accumulation
197033- Accepted- been in service but now stored Holyhead
197034- Accepted- been in service but now stored Holyhead
197035- Accepted, In service
197036- Accepted, Not yet used- Stored Holyhead
197037- Has visited Crewe ATC. Current status and whereabouts Unknown, possible stored in Crewe SY
197038- Unknown
197039- Unknown
197040- Unknown
197041- Unknown
 
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60159

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Piecing together the bits on the ERTMS sets, this seems to be the current status. Anything shown as Unknown im not too sure where they are.

If anyone else knows anymore about them I'll amend this post.

197022- Accepted, Not yet used- Stored Holyhead
197023- ATC Crewe Commisioning/mileage accumulation
197024- Accepted- In service
197025- Unknown
197026- Unknown
197027- Accepted, Not yet used- Stored Holyhead
197028- Accepted, been in service but now stored Holyhead
197029- Accepted- In Service
197030- Accepted- been in service but now stored Holyhead
197031- Accepted- been in service but now stored Holyhead
197032- ATC Crewe commissioning/milage accumulation
197033- Accepted- been in service but now stored Holyhead
197034- Accepted- been in service but now stored Holyhead
197035- Accepted, In service
197036- Accepted, Not yet used- Stored Holyhead
197037- Unknown
197038- Unknown
197039- Unknown
197040- Unknown
197041- Unknown
I have not checked but I think 26 and 37 have been to Crewe but I had not realised 32 was at Crewe.If correct only 25 and 38-41 not left the factory but any correction much appreciated.
 

sd0733

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I have not checked but I think 26 and 37 have been to Crewe but I had not realised 32 was at Crewe.If correct only 25 and 38-41 not left the factory but any correction much appreciated.
Just found a post about those 2, they're not shown as accepted yet but I'll update the post. Not noticed them on ATC bit there's 2 units in Crewe south yard so possibly those.
 

craigybagel

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I having been looking out for ETCS 197s (003, 022-042) on RTT late last week. I noticed only 197024, 197028 and 197035 currently in use Wednesday - Saturday (21-24). Which fits with other posts of two - three in use. All ran through Cardiff except 197024 was in North and Mid Wales until Saturday (which I had to miss !).

As far as I know the only nine ETCS 197s that have been used at all are :-
197003, 197024, 197028, 197029, 197030, 197031, 197033, 197034 & 197035.

I read up-thread that the ETCS 197s have to have a modification to TEMPORARILY disable the ETCS so drivers with no ETCS training do not have to learn the bit about turning ETCS off and on. If that is true then I guess the above nine units are more likely to get early periodic use than those twelve that have not been temporarily modified.

How true is the above and how big a deal is it learning to turn ETCS off ?.
I might guess the snag is a driver not encountering the need for more than six months so that bit of knowledge is expired.
I can also ponder that the ETCS is not thoroughly tested enough to cope with being, erm, turned off !.

EDITed - A little voice in my head says ERTMS is more correctly ETCS.
EDITed - nine not seven ETCS ones used.
The ERTMS fitted 197s that are in public service have indeed been modified so that ERTMS is isolated - and other than the speedometer being on a digital screen rather than analogue, there is no difference for the driver.

We've been led to believe that the process of setting it up when running on conventionally signalled lines will be different to how it is with the 158s, but we've not been given the full details as yet. Setting up a 158, whilst slow, isn't particularly challenging. Hopefully on the 197s it will be quicker.
 

Peter Sarf

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Piecing together the bits on the ERTMS sets, this seems to be the current status. Anything shown as Unknown im not too sure where they are.

If anyone else knows anymore about them I'll amend this post.

197022- Accepted, Not yet used- Stored Holyhead
197023- ATC Crewe Commisioning/mileage accumulation
197024- Accepted- In service
197025- Unknown
197026- Has visited Crewe ATC. Current status and whereabouts Unknown, possible stored in Crewe SY
197027- Accepted, Not yet used- Stored Holyhead
197028- Accepted, been in service but now stored Holyhead
197029- Accepted- In Service
197030- Accepted- been in service but now stored Holyhead
197031- Accepted- been in service but now stored Holyhead
197032- ATC Crewe commissioning/milage accumulation
197033- Accepted- been in service but now stored Holyhead
197034- Accepted- been in service but now stored Holyhead
197035- Accepted, In service
197036- Accepted, Not yet used- Stored Holyhead
197037- Has visited Crewe ATC. Current status and whereabouts Unknown, possible stored in Crewe SY
197038- Unknown
197039- Unknown
197040- Unknown
197041- Unknown
Thanks for this.

Someone needs to look over Crewe SY - South Yard ?.

I wonder if I should have paid more attention last time I visited Crewe !.
 

sd0733

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Thanks for this.

Someone needs to look over Crewe SY - South Yard ?.

I wonder if I should have paid more attention last time I visited Crewe !.
They can be seen from the Shrewsbury line in the South Yard but would struggle to identify them. There's no public view anywhere near as its in the triangle of lines.
 

tfw756rider

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Thanks for any replies and I'll reply to other posts later, but I've now realised that the upcoming Cambrian 197 test runs are actually one night to Aberystwyth and three nights to Pwllheli, not just one night to Aberystwyth and one night to Pwllheli as I previously thought:









 
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Cambrian359

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Guessing things are going fairly well overall now as I notice on my kitchen departure board (which I usually have set to Shrewsbury) that there are a lot of 5 car formations between Manchester and Cardiff throughout the day these days so presumably enough 197s in circulation to achieve this despite them covering elsewhere, great to see!
 

sd0733

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Guessing things are going fairly well overall now as I notice on my kitchen departure board (which I usually have set to Shrewsbury) that there are a lot of 5 car formations between Manchester and Cardiff throughout the day these days so presumably enough 197s in circulation to achieve this despite them covering elsewhere, great to see!
Manchesters are holding up very well recently, both the Mk4s and 197s having good availability and 5 cars from both fleets being generally the norm.
 

Jez

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Manchesters are holding up very well recently, both the Mk4s and 197s having good availability and 5 cars from both fleets being generally the norm.
Indeed and its good to see. Yesterday I had a fantastic journey on the 1130 ex Manchester. It was particularly quiet after Cardiff. There was some confusion with passengers going West of Swansea which carriage they were supposed to be on and I advised them the back 2. Like to do my bit for TFW! lol. My Mum was impressed with the improvements as hasnt travelled to Manchester by train since 2019.

I notice a couple of Sprinters today - one on the 1008 Cardiff-Fishguard and on the 0902 Pembroke Dock. I also saw an active travel set passing the line near Neath earlier but couldnt work out which service. Has availability of 197s dropped today?

A closer look at RTT shows the 2 150s were simply to swap a set between Cardiff and Swansea for the Heart of Wales.
I can find 48 x 197s in use today on RTT and of the missing 2 they appear to be subbed by 150s one on Maesteg and one on Cheltenham. It appears every effort is now made to keep the Manchester booked as they should be.
 
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sd0733

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Indeed and its good to see. Yesterday I had a fantastic journey on the 1130 ex Manchester. It was particularly quiet after Cardiff. There was some confusion with passengers going West of Swansea which carriage they were supposed to be on and I advised them the back 2. Like to do my bit for TFW! lol. My Mum was impressed with the improvements as hasnt travelled to Manchester by train since 2019.

I notice a couple of Sprinters today - one on the 1008 Cardiff-Fishguard and on the 0902 Pembroke Dock. I also saw an active travel set passing the line near Neath earlier but couldnt work out which service. Has availability of 197s dropped today?

A closer look at RTT shows the 2 150s were simply to swap a set between Cardiff and Swansea for the Heart of Wales.
I can find 48 x 197s in use today on RTT and of the missing 2 they appear to be subbed by 150s one on Maesteg and one on Cheltenham. It appears every effort is now made to keep the Manchester booked as they should be.
Yes it's certainly vastly improved things. Hopefully the incidents will be over for a while after a string of them and things will fully settle down.

Yes, there does look to have been some 15x swapping to and from Heart of Wales.
There were 50 197s allocated at start of service. Theres been a couple fallen by the wayside as the days gone on.

Yes Manchester certainly seems to prioritise now (rightly so considering the journey times). A single unit now to Manchester is pretty rare, mostly only appearing when one is on a Mk4 diagram.
 

BillStampy

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Yes Manchester certainly seems to prioritise now (rightly so considering the journey times). A single unit now to Manchester is pretty rare, mostly only appearing when one is on a Mk4 diagram.
Absolutely, had a bunch of doubles today of 4 and 5 coaches in all the Manchester services I had travelled on today which were relatively busy but enough space for everyone to sit. Which, in the case of a single 2 car unit, would not end well.
 

Rhydgaled

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Given the Cambrian units are currently being used to prop up the rest of the network it’s hard to imagine them being able to make the switch anytime soon on the Cambrian line and therefore probably not worth the effort to start training just for it to lapse particularly as the 158s have been leased for another 2 years according to various topics and posts on here. I could be wrong though!
Yes, as of 20th March TfW were saying that the 158s are leased until 30th Apr 2027. Then again, 17 of TfW's 30 odd class 153s are supposedly on-lease for well over a year yet (until 31st Dec 2026) yet I understand from other topics/posts on here that they've already been stood down by TfW. For completeness, the class 150s (31 units) are leased by TfW until 31st Mar 2027 and everything else in TfW's fleet is either owned by them (230s and mark 4s) or leased until October 2033.

Those ETCS units are supposed to be maintained by Machynlleth depot when in service. Chester don't have the capacity to maintain all of them.
Its down to maintenance capacity while balancing enough to cover the service.
This sounds like the biggest issue to me; not enough depot capacity to maintain the new fleet (particuarly) alongside the existing class 158s. Otherwise, it would seem that getting all the ETCS-fitted 197s into service now would be a good idea. Would at least reduce the need to cancel/shortform services given the (hopefully temporary) loss of a mark 4 set and two 158s in accidents.

That is quite a healthy quantity (1/3rd) likely to venture away from the Birmingham to/from Cambrian coast route.

Follows that that 1/3rd of the ERTMS ones are needed now but I guess no depot capacity until the alleged big bang of Cambrian switching over to ERTMS 197s and Machynlleth being emptied of ERTMS 158s ?.
Don't forget that a proportion of the units not diagramed for service will be required on-depot for maintenance etc. Even assuming the '14 units planned on the Cambrian' figure is correct, there will not be a third of the ETCS-fitted class 197 fleet available to be diagramed elsewhere.

As for a 'big bang' switch over from 158s to 197s, wouldn't that make it very tricky to train up the Cambrian crews (particuarly those 'from' Pwllheli) on 197s? Surely TfW woudn't do that if they had any other choice, and the times of at least one the test runs posted by tfw756rider above suggest the 197s can be running under ETCS on the Cambrian at the same time as the normal service trains (currently operated by 158s)?
 

tfw756rider

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Is 197032 a 2025 197 then?

I've been trying to work out which 197s were built in which year.

Every 197 has basically two parts that carry a manufacture year - a plaque on each bogie, and the windows (and toilet mirrors).

The manufacture years on the windows (and toilet mirrors) are always visible (but one unit can have windows of different manufacture years).

The manufacture years on the bogies are only visible if they're clean, but so far I've only seen bogies of one manufacture year on a unit.

I have got an ongoing list of manufacture years I've seen on 197s (I have travelled on 42 197s but have only got years from 15, plus any contributions from others on here):

197010 - 2020 toilet mirror
197014 - 2020 toilet mirror
197018 - 2020 toilet mirror
197020 - 2020 toilet mirror
197103 - 2020 big toilet mirror

197120 - 2020 and 2021 window glass

197009 - 2021 window glass (one window)
197024 - 2021 bogies
197047 - 2021 toilet mirror
197114 - 2021 big toilet mirror
197124 - 2021 window glass (thanks @SWML9102)

197042 - 2020, 2021 and 2022 window glass

197029 - 2021 toilet mirror, 2022 window glass (a couple of windows)

197051 - 2022 bogies, 2021 window glass (a couple of windows)

197119 - 2022 bogies

197033 - 2023 toilet mirror

So as far as I can work out:
  • 197010/011/012/013/014/015/016/017/018/019/020 and 197103 - those 12 units were probably all built in 2020
  • 197009/024 and 197114/120/124 - those 5 units were probably all built in 2021
  • 197029/042/043/044/045/046/047/048/049/050/051 and 197119 - those 12 units were probably all built in 2022
  • 197033 - that unit was probably built in 2023
I'd appreciate if, when anyone in here travels on any of 197001/002/003/004/005/006/007/008/021/028/030/031/034/035 or 197101/102/104/105/106/107/108/109/110/111/112/113/115/116/117/118/121/122/123/125/126, they could (if not too much hassle) get a manufacture date from the unit for me (either the big toilet mirror, a window or a couple or few of them, or, if clean, a bogie plaque). Of course, I'll continue to look myself as well.

I've seen 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023 so far, but not yet 2024 or 2025.
This list (in post #8,840 on page 295) has been updated.
 

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