CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Bletchleyite]

Tfw won't let that happen as it can cause logistical nightmares for them

To be fair TfW have got quite good at arranging swaps at Shrewsbury if a non ETCS unit ends up there now.

 

[sd0733]

The plan is may 2022 on the Chester to Liverpool route

March is the current plan for the Liverpool route with May onto North Wales Coast and October on Manchester to South Wales.
These are seemingly already slipping though with unit faults delaying training

 

[Philip]

Assming 197s are running Manchester to North Wales by June/July, is it known yet whether the 6 or 7 175s they'll replace will go straight off lease, or will they be used to form stengthened Manchester-South Wales diagrams until October?

 

[craigybagel]

Assming 197s are running Manchester to North Wales by June/July, is it known yet whether the 6 or 7 175s they'll replace will go straight off lease, or will they be used to form stengthened Manchester-South Wales diagrams until October?

Very little scope to lengthen the Manchester - South Wales services with 175s owing to platform lengths and lack of SDO. It's hard to say for certain what will happen though as nobody knows what's happening next with the 175s, or when it's happening.

 

[sw1ller]

Has anyone seen a 197 go past Llandudno Junction? Heard there’s issues with a couple of tunnels.

 

[wobman]

Has anyone seen a 197 go past Llandudno Junction? Heard there’s issues with a couple of tunnels.

Yes there's clearance issues with the Conwy tubular tunnel apparently, that's why they don't go past Ludo jn.
It's going to be resolved as quite a few 197s are to be stabled at Holyhead I the future

 

[sw1ller]

Yes there's clearance issues with the Conwy tubular tunnel apparently, that's why they don't go past Ludo jn.
It's going to be resolved as quite a few 197s are to be stabled at Holyhead I the future

I’ve heard Belmont too

 

[wobman]

I’ve heard Belmont too

It wouldn't surprise me there's a few places we're unit clearance is tight, the Conwy Castle walls and Conwy tunnels tight aswell as Belmont tunnel. They will need resolving ASAP and that's after the 197s get the steps fitted on the passenger doors.
There's still no traincrew training on the 197s yet, it's delayed until aslef agree the training plan and rdw problem gets resolved.

 

[Envoy]

It might be a good idea to run a 197 along all the routes on which they might operate sooner rather than later so that any remedial works can take place well before they are available.

 

[wobman]

It might be a good idea to run a 197 along all the routes on which they might operate sooner rather than later so that any remedial works can take place well before they are available.

The run test trains for that purpose to gauge routes

 

[Dai Corner]

It might be a good idea to run a 197 along all the routes on which they might operate sooner rather than later so that any remedial works can take place well before they are available.

Better still, use the Network Rail structure gauge data to make sure they'll fit or determine what works is required. That'll be how they know they know not to try to take them through the places mentioned above.

https://www.thepwi.org/technical_hub_journal_technical_articles/pwi_journal_0120_vol138_pt1/pwi_journal_0120_vol138_pt1_hs2_gauging

WHAT IS GAUGING?
Gauging is the process for ensuring that trains which are used on a specific section of track and the railway infrastructure are compatible in terms of spatial relationship. These days gauging is a scientific method which creates an artificial train envelope that is greater than the physical train, taking into considerations items such as track geometry and speed amongst others.

 

[craigybagel]

Has anyone seen a 197 go past Llandudno Junction? Heard there’s issues with a couple of tunnels.

Yes there's clearance issues with the Conwy tubular tunnel apparently, that's why they don't go past Ludo jn.
It's going to be resolved as quite a few 197s are to be stabled at Holyhead I the future

On the plus side, the 197s aren't likely to be needed to reach Holyhead for a while yet anyway - since almost all diagrams that reach Holyhead are either 158s interworking with the Cambrian or services through to Cardiff, neither of which are likely to see 197s till later in the process.

 

[Bob Price]

197002 has made it to Liverpool. Picture on the TFW Rail Instagram. (Hope the link works!)

Instagram

www.instagram.com

 

[wobman]

197002 has made it to Liverpool. Picture on the TFW Rail Instagram. (Hope the link works!)

Instagram

www.instagram.com

That's one of the designated traincrew training routes when the training begins

 

[Jacob Porrett]

TFW Units at Donnington Rail Freight Terminal at the moment are as follow:
197006 (2 car)
197008 (2 car)
197010 (2 car)
197007 (2 car)
197103 (Unit has now numbers on it so not 100% sure. Only been told it's 103.) (3 car)
109/0 (No numbers either so can't identify it unfortunately.) (2 car)

Assming 197s are running Manchester to North Wales by June/July, is it known yet whether the 6 or 7 175s they'll replace will go straight off lease, or will they be used to form stengthened Manchester-South Wales diagrams until October?

I've heard Northern might have the 175s but what truth is in that I don't know.

 

[wobman]

TFW Units at Donnington Rail Freight Terminal at the moment are as follow:
197006 (2 car)
197008 (2 car)
197010 (2 car)
197007 (2 car)
197103 (Unit has now numbers on it so not 100% sure. Only been told it's 103.) (3 car)
109/0 (No numbers either so can't identify it unfortunately.) (2 car)


I've heard Northern might have the 175s but what truth is in that I don't know.

There's no plans for the 175s as yet, all that tfw have said is once the 197s come into service the original plan was 1x197 in and 1x175 out. But tfw have been willing to change plans quite often, especially as train travel numbers are now increasing as restrictions are being lifted.

Of the 12 x 197s I've heard 11 of them have still not completed their fault free testing & mileage accumulation yet ! Let's hope the ROG drivers are able to complete the testing on time.

 

[Philip]

There's no plans for the 175s as yet, all that tfw have said is once the 197s come into service the original plan was 1x197 in and 1x175 out. But tfw have been willing to change plans quite often, especially as train travel numbers are now increasing as restrictions are being lifted.

Of the 12 x 197s I've heard 11 of them have still not completed their fault free testing & mileage accumulation yet ! Let's hope the ROG drivers are able to complete the testing on time.

I'm not sure TfW will have an option, the space at Chester depot will be needed for 197s which is probably the main reason for it being 1 in 1 out.

 

[wobman]

I'm not sure TfW will have an option, the space at Chester depot will be needed for 197s which is probably the main reason for it being 1 in 1 out.

There's plans to store 197s at various locations on the network, one place being Holyhead port sidings. Retaining ghe 175s longer would be better for tfw as theatre really struggling for rolling stock. The ecs run from Chester to Canton consisting of various sprinters today were units that are all knackers.....

 

[Caaardiff]

There's plans to store 197s at various locations on the network, one place being Holyhead port sidings. Retaining ghe 175s longer would be better for tfw as theatre really struggling for rolling stock. The ecs run from Chester to Canton consisting of various sprinters today were units that are all knackers.....

Plus there needs to be a buffer of 175s to call upon should any train crew end up working a 197 that isn't signed off, which will likely be a regular occurrence towards the start of introduction.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

There's no plans for the 175s as yet, all that tfw have said is once the 197s come into service the original plan was 1x197 in and 1x175 out. But tfw have been willing to change plans quite often, especially as train travel numbers are now increasing as restrictions are being lifted.

Of the 12 x 197s I've heard 11 of them have still not completed their fault free testing & mileage accumulation yet ! Let's hope the ROG drivers are able to complete the testing on time.

They are still testing them at the moment. That's why.

 

[sd0733]

Of the 12 x 197s I've heard 11 of them have still not completed their fault free testing & mileage accumulation yet ! Let's hope the ROG drivers are able to complete the testing on time.

6 units have completed fault free mileage, but none have yet been officially handed over to TfW and until they are a CAF fitter has to be on every run which is severely limiting the amount of test runs and training which can happen.
There’s currently software upgrades which have caused some engine management faults and has delayed things again while a fix for that is rolled out. Also the auto coupling mode needs further testing as it pushes the units together far too rapidly, this should be happening this week so that coupling/uncoupling and multi unit test runs can take place.

The latest plan has moved the introduction date quite a way back but with 3 units on the first day, a Chester-Liverpool, the Bleanau shuttle and a Wrexham-Bidston diagram (alongside the 230s) are now pencilled in for between the May TT and the start of the school holidays in July.

The gauging issues between Llandudno Junction and Holyhead should be a short term fix but there are a couple of issues between Machynlleth and Pwllheli which are a little longer term and will mean a small fleet of 158s are to be retained for a while to run a shuttle service on that route while it’s sorted.

 

[Wyrleybart]

6 units have completed fault free mileage, but none have yet been officially handed over to TfW and until they are a CAF fitter has to be on every run which is severely limiting the amount of test runs and training which can happen.
There’s currently software upgrades which have caused some engine management faults and has delayed things again while a fix for that is rolled out. Also the auto coupling mode needs further testing as it pushes the units together far too rapidly, this should be happening this week so that coupling/uncoupling and multi unit test runs can take place.

The latest plan has moved the introduction date quite a way back but with 3 units on the first day, a Chester-Liverpool, the Blaenau shuttle and a Wrexham-Bidston diagram (alongside the 230s) are now pencilled in for between the May TT and the start of the school holidays in July.

Thanks for that.
Why the auto coupling mode when you pay drivers to drive the trains ? Every piece of computerised kit added to a train cab (in other words nearly every class 197 vehicle apart from a few centre cars) increases it's susceptibility to fail in traffic.

 

[sd0733]

Thanks for that.
Why the auto coupling mode when you pay drivers to drive the trains ? Every piece of computerised kit added to a train cab (in other words nearly every class 197 vehicle apart from a few centre cars) increases it's susceptibility to fail in traffic.

Good question, Everyone is of that opinion, but for whatever reason it got specified somewhere during the design. The idea is it saves time as it couples itself once the coupling button is pressed, it finished the process of moving into the other unit and replaces the pull away test but certainly appears to be an extra layer of potential faults.

 

[Eccles1983]

It doesn't effectively drive itself.

The auto coupler mode means that it will regulate the speed in which it happens. The driver still has to select the correct mode and physically drive the train forward to couple.

What it does do (or at least meant to) is complete the checks drivers usually do such as pull away test and brake/electrical/pneumatically checks. This time will now be used to configure the gangway doors as they are more complicated that usual.

They can still be coupled without the auto coupler, but there is a risk of damaging couplers due to the way the brakes work, the holdover brake is a bit stiff and on release the train shoots forward.

 

[wobman]

Thanks for that.
Why the auto coupling mode when you pay drivers to drive the trains ? Every piece of computerised kit added to a train cab (in other words nearly every class 197 vehicle apart from a few centre cars) increases it's susceptibility to fail in traffic.

Tfw may have specified auto coupling as they plan lots of coupling and uncoupling in the future, they may hope it will speed the process up and reduce couple wear / Tear.
Drivers that have been on the units have pointed out the auto couple issues, acceleration into the other unit at up to 5mph isn't great from the 2ft distance.

The coupling process will be an area that will need to be looked at, there's more panels and doors to open and lock into place on the 197s compared to the sprinter units tfw run at present.

 

[sd0733]

It doesn't effectively drive itself

Yes, that was a bit badly worded and over simplified on my part have amended the original post.

The coupling process will be an area that will need to be looked at, there's more panels and doors to open and lock into place on the 197s compared to the sprinter units tfw run at present.

There’s a lot of testing and also timing the whole process planned to take place this week for the whole coupling and uncoupling process and to check how long it takes in practice

 

[wobman]

6 units have completed fault free mileage, but none have yet been officially handed over to TfW and until they are a CAF fitter has to be on every run which is severely limiting the amount of test runs and training which can happen.
There’s currently software upgrades which have caused some engine management faults and has delayed things again while a fix for that is rolled out. Also the auto coupling mode needs further testing as it pushes the units together far too rapidly, this should be happening this week so that coupling/uncoupling and multi unit test runs can take place.

The latest plan has moved the introduction date quite a way back but with 3 units on the first day, a Chester-Liverpool, the Bleanau shuttle and a Wrexham-Bidston diagram (alongside the 230s) are now pencilled in for between the May TT and the start of the school holidays in July.

The gauging issues between Llandudno Junction and Holyhead should be a short term fix but there are a couple of issues between Machynlleth and Pwllheli which are a little longer term and will mean a small fleet of 158s are to be retained for a while to run a shuttle service on that route while it’s sorted.

I have to ask how is it fault free mileage if theirs still the faults as you yourself stated ??

Plus if there's no units passed to tfw yet and they have not had the software upgrades as you stated, how can Chester/ Llandudno Junction and Holyhead drivers be all trained by may tt or even June?

As the routes stated are covered by the 3 depots for drivers and add Shrewsbury guards onto that list for guards training.
That's an awful lot of training when each driver is 5days traction training.

 

[sd0733]

I have to ask how is it fault free mileage if theirs still the faults as you yourself stated ??

Plus if there's no units passed to tfw yet and they have not had the software upgrades as you stated, how can Chester/ Llandudno Junction and Holyhead drivers be all trained by may tt or even June?

As the routes stated are covered by the 3 depots for drivers and add Shrewsbury guards onto that list for guards training.
That's an awful lot of training when each driver is 5days traction training.

The software updates appear to have been done on the units which have finished the mileage, fixes are planned and it doesn’t stop them running.

Training can and does still take place on the mileage completed units but still CAF owned units, it just means that a CAF fitter has to be on the units at all times when running which makes it more difficult.

I don’t know what contingencies are in place for that and it seems to me very unlikely that 100% of Crews at all those depots are trained by then. Hopefully there’s plans at levels well above mine to have a plan in place for when someone who doesn’t sign them is allocated to a job.

 

[craigybagel]

And to think one of the regular posters on this thread was adamant I was wrong for suggesting the coupling process on 197s was going to be quite different from what TfW drivers were used to......

As the routes stated are covered by the 3 depots for drivers and add Shrewsbury guards onto that list for guards training.
That's an awful lot of training when each driver is 5days traction training.

The software updates appear to have been done on the units which have finished the mileage, fixes are planned and it doesn’t stop them running.

Training can and does still take place on the mileage completed units but still CAF owned units, it just means that a CAF fitter has to be on the units at all times when running which makes it more difficult.

I don’t know what contingencies are in place for that and it seems to me very unlikely that 100% of Crews at all those depots are trained by then. Hopefully there’s plans at levels well above mine to have a plan in place for when someone who doesn’t sign them is allocated to a job.

To be fair, I would assume that these are the plans that assume large scale driver training can start soon. As we know for a variety of reasons that may well be not the case, and I'm sure a further revised plan will be made to cover for that scenario.

 

[Philip]

There's plans to store 197s at various locations on the network, one place being Holyhead port sidings. Retaining ghe 175s longer would be better for tfw as theatre really struggling for rolling stock. The ecs run from Chester to Canton consisting of various sprinters today were units that are all knackers.....

Reading through the last few posts perhaps the second half of the year is a more realistic forecast for widespread 197 passenger workings. I still think by this time next year though that there will be no class 175s working out of Manchester anymore (at least on TfW services!). The timetable will probably also completely change in December on both the North and South Wales routes.