CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[61653 HTAFC]

But it still sounds like you’re saying it’s Northern’s fault which it plainly isn’t. It’s CAF who built them. If Northern had wanted to order gangwayed units (still don’t get this obsession with them) they would have done so or advised CAF that was a future intention so CAF would have built any non-gangwayed units with the same couplings, but they didn’t.

It just sounds like it’s the usual ‘Northern bashing’ post when it clearly isn’t.

Okay- rather than being Northern's fault specifically, it's the fault of the stupidly fragmented system we've ended up with...

But then, the same thing happened plenty of times under BR: the Turbos having couplers specifically designed to be incompatible with Sprinters, or the plethora of different multi-working systems on the first-generation units and locos. Compare that to the United States and their mostly private system, but they still managed to have a universal standard for multi-working.

I suppose if there weren't all these peculiar quirks and oddities, this website would be rather dull!

 

[sd0733]

BSI adaptors? How capable are these - do they make a 197 able to multi with a 15x just as effectively as a 170 can multi with a 150 or is it more of an emergency low-speed drag kind of thing?

Emergency use to get the line cleared i believe. A test was done coupling a 158 to a 197 at Crewe.

 

[DanNCL]

I would have thought 195s would be able to mechanically couple to 196s and 197s in an emergency with the electric box on the coupler of the 196/197 retracted. This procedure is already used in Scotland when 334s for whatever reason are required to rescue or be rescued by a 385 - the electric box on the coupler of the 334 has to be retracted.

I am of course happy to stand corrected on this if I am mistaken.

 

[wobman]

002 is out and about on the N Wales coast again today, it sits in P2 at Chester usualky around 11am to confuse the customers. It had some brake problems around Rhyl earlier. All fixed by the looks of things.

 

[PHILIPE]

Move from Donnington to Crewe tomorrow Friday October 1st

www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R02390/2021-10-01/detailed

197003

 

[Bob Price]

197003 is the unit. There is a picture of it here in this Tweet. They seem to be moving at a faster rate now. https://twitter.com/MrDonnington/status/1443570468577968133?s=19

 

[wobman]

197003 is the unit. There is a picture of it here in this Tweet. They seem to be moving at a faster rate now. https://twitter.com/MrDonnington/status/1443570468577968133?s=19

It's getting busy at Crewe LNWR depot

 

[sd0733]

Move from Donnington to Crewe tomorrow Friday October 1st

www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R02390/2021-10-01/detailed

197003

This delivery is supposed to be an ERTMS fitted one so that there is at least one of each type for training.

 

[craigybagel]

It's getting busy at Crewe LNWR depot

Their new temporary home looks to be ready for them, although there's still a stop board over the entrance so I don't know if it's been signed off yet......

 

[wobman]

Their new temporary home looks to be ready for them, although there's still a stop board over the entrance so I don't know if it's been signed off yet......

Where's there new temporary home ? They do look good inside, the cabs are an upgrade for sure. Even a cup holder and a bin wow

 

[craigybagel]

Where's there new temporary home ? They do look good inside, the cabs are an upgrade for sure. Even a cup holder and a bin wow

Will PM you, not sure if it's public knowledge yet. But yes, I've had a look around the cab too and I was very impressed - so much space. And don't forget the foot warmer!

 

[krus_aragon]

This delivery is supposed to be an ERTMS fitted one so that there is at least one of each type for training.

Given that this one's numbered 003, are they not intending to keep the ERTMS units in one contiguous block of numbers?

 

[sd0733]

Given that this one's numbered 003, are they not intending to keep the ERTMS units in one contiguous block of numbers?

Youd have thought so really. Unless somethings changed in the delivery schedule somewhere.

 

[wobman]

Will PM you, not sure if it's public knowledge yet. But yes, I've had a look around the cab too and I was very impressed - so much space. And don't forget the foot warmer!

I think the coupling process is more time consuming than the sprinters, TFW may need to look at the timings for the coupling process in diagrams.
From what I've seen I'm impressed with the cab environment compared to the present traction.

 

[Neptune]

I think the coupling process is more time consuming than the sprinters, TFW may need to look at the timings for the coupling process in diagrams.
From what I've seen I'm impressed with the cab environment compared to the present traction.

The 195’s have the same 5 minutes attach/detach as every other class on Northern.

 

[wobman]

The 195’s have the same 5 minutes attach/detach as every other class on Northern.

The 195's don't have the gangway doors to contend with, the 196 & 197 units will require much longer as a result of opening the multiple doors and moving the cab wall.

I wonder if this has been worked out on the wmt 196 units !

 

[CardiffKid]

197101 has arrived, the first three car set according to TfW’s Twitter feed:

https://twitter.com/tfwrail/status/1443923904590798852?s=21

 

[172007]

The 195's don't have the gangway doors to contend with, the 196 & 197 units will require much longer as a result of opening the multiple doors and moving the cab wall.

I wonder if this has been worked out on the wmt 196 units !

On the basis WMT on the Herefords and Snowhill line services use 172's in multiple they are fully accustomed to opening/ closing half a million doors during coupling / uncoupling of units.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 195's don't have the gangway doors to contend with, the 196 & 197 units will require much longer as a result of opening the multiple doors and moving the cab wall.

I wonder if this has been worked out on the wmt 196 units !

Much longer? About 20 seconds, you mean?

 

[craigybagel]

Much longer? About 20 seconds, you mean?

As a matter of interest, how much front line experience do you have when it comes to coupling units in the current TfW fleet? And how much front line experience do you have when it comes to coupling up gangway fitted units built by CAF?

From what I've both seen with myself and been told by those more in the know the coupling process in the CAFs is going to be a very big change from those used to coupling Sprinters - but when we've discussed this in the past you've dismissed these fears without any explanation as to why.

 

[The_Train]

I've seen it suggested elsewhere that these units should now start to arrive at Donnington at a rate of roughly 1 per week from now.

Not sure on the reliability of the source so we shall have to wait and see

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a matter of interest, how much front line experience do you have when it comes to coupling units in the current TfW fleet? And how much front line experience do you have when it comes to coupling up gangway fitted units built by CAF?

From what I've both seen with myself and been told by those more in the know the coupling process in the CAFs is going to be a very big change from those used to coupling Sprinters - but when we've discussed this in the past you've dismissed these fears without any explanation as to why.

I've not worked with any units. However, I have on many occasions experienced and observed portion working by TOCs such as LNR, who have trains with gangways and couplers of the same type, and it is both a smooth and easy process pretty much every time - easier than 15x, if anything, because you don't have to repeatedly bang Scharfenberg fitted units together to make them couple, they generally go first time due to the coupling being done pneumatically and the design being more effective.

 

[Caaardiff]

I've seen it suggested elsewhere that these units should now start to arrive at Donnington at a rate of roughly 1 per week from now.

Not sure on the reliability of the source so we shall have to wait and see

Where are they going to store all these units? They aren't close to entering service and there's only so many that can be crewed each day for training.

 

[craigybagel]

I've not worked with any units. However, I have on many occasions experienced and observed portion working by TOCs such as LNR, who have trains with gangways and couplers of the same type, and it is both a smooth and easy process pretty much every time - easier than 15x, if anything, because you don't have to repeatedly bang Scharfenberg fitted units together to make them couple, they generally go first time due to the coupling being done pneumatically and the design being more effective.

Well please bear in mind that both wobman and myself have quite a lot of experience when it comes to coupling both Sprinters and Scharfenberg fitted units. We've also been in the cabs of 197s, and have been able to speak to staff involved first hand in the 197 introduction process.

So when we mention that the coupling process is going to be quite a big change from how it is now and that it might take longer, it's coming from at least some degree of professional expertise, and not just experience gained by traveling as passengers.

Where are they going to store all these units? They aren't close to entering service and there's only so many that can be crewed each day for training.

As I said above, there is a handy location lined up for them, but I don't know if that information is allowed to be shared yet. Rest assured there is a plan in place however.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well please bear in mind that both wobman and myself have quite a lot of experience when it comes to coupling both Sprinters and Scharfenberg fitted units. We've also been in the cabs of 197s, and have been able to speak to staff involved first hand in the 197 introduction process.

So when we mention that the coupling process is going to be quite a big change from how it is now and that it might take longer, it's coming from at least some degree of professional expertise, and not just experience gained by traveling as passengers.

So could you elaborate on how it differs?

 

[craigybagel]

So could you elaborate on how it differs?

Both myself and wobman have done so several times already. You've replied telling us that we were wrong.

But take your pick from:

*Part of the coupling process is automated. Drivers will no longer be simply driving into the other unit and pressing the couple button after a pull away test
*The gangway set up is complete different. Almost unrecognisable for those who sign Sprinters
*Part of the cab wall needs to be moved to allow access to the gangway
*Owing to the large size of the gangway itself, the driver will have a very different view of the coupling process as they do at present.

None of these are especially problematic or are design flaws - they're just changes that may well take longer than the current process, especially at the beginning as crews get used to it.

 

[krus_aragon]

Where are they going to store all these units? They aren't close to entering service and there's only so many that can be crewed each day for training.

As I said above, there is a handy location lined up for them, but I don't know if that information is allowed to be shared yet. Rest assured there is a plan in place however.

A handy location, eh? I look forward to seeing (in time) whether it matches any of my speculative guesses...


(Edit to add: I think one forum member may have let the location slip in another thread over the summer. If it's correct, then that's convenient in both location and timing!)

 

[Dai Corner]

A handy location, eh? I look forward to seeing (in time) whether it matches any of my speculative guesses...

I'll bet a virtual fiver on the Conwy Valley line, south of Llanwrst. They'll get Llew Jones to run an extra bus and let people think the line's flooded again

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll bet a virtual fiver on the Conwy Valley line, south of Llanwrst. They'll get Llew Jones to run an extra bus and let people think the line's flooded again

Costly when (not if) it actually does flood!

 

[wobman]

I'll bet a virtual fiver on the Conwy Valley line, south of Llanwrst. They'll get Llew Jones to run an extra bus and let people think the line's flooded again

I know they can't fit at chester, the yard is to busy through the day.