CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[childwallblues]

197120 is on the Chester to Lime Street service today together wiwh 197051.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

197120 is on the Chester to Lime Street service today together wiwh 197051.

120s been in service a couple weeks now I believe?

 

[Western 52]

120s been in service a couple weeks now I believe?

Yes quite a while now. I've ridden it in standard plus a few times. Last Tuesday I was amused at the conversation on the adjacent table, as they thought the dragon graphic which extends to the windows was bars! They were debating why the train needed them!

 

[Lurcheroo]

Yes quite a while now. I've ridden it in standard plus a few times. Last Tuesday I was amused at the conversation on the adjacent table, as they thought the dragon graphic which extends to the windows was bars! They were debating why the train needed them!

And yet there are still people who peruse this forum that think the average train riding folk, know much, or care much about the train they’re on

 

[Anonymous10]

And yet there are still people who peruse this forum that think the average train riding folk, know much, or care much about the train they’re on

They know more than we think, they for instance know the standard plus is being "tested" and will be rolled out soon.

 

[GWVillager]

And yet there are still people who peruse this forum that think the average train riding folk, know much, or care much about the train they’re on

There’s a huge difference between knowing and caring: in this case they didn’t know that the train didn’t have bars, but they clearly cared, and perhaps this is something to learn from - maybe we should get rid of the window stripes?

 

[childwallblues]

120s been in service a couple weeks now I believe?

First time to Liverpool I believe.

 

[BenBracken]

And yet there are still people who peruse this forum that think the average train riding folk, know much, or care much about the train they’re on

I’ve definitely heard passengers in west Wales noticing straight away as they get on board that they are brand new trains and how nice they are in comparison to the old ones.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And yet there are still people who peruse this forum that think the average train riding folk, know much, or care much about the train they’re on

I mean it’s hard to make Joe Public fit into one box. Some will know every little difference, whereas others would remain totally oblivious

 

[Lurcheroo]

They know more than we think, they for instance know the standard plus is being "tested" and will be rolled out soon.

There’s a huge difference between knowing and caring: in this case they didn’t know that the train didn’t have bars, but they clearly cared, and perhaps this is something to learn from - maybe we should get rid of the window stripes?

I’ve definitely heard passengers in west Wales noticing straight away as they get on board that they are brand new trains and how nice they are in comparison to the old ones.

I mean it’s hard to make Joe Public fit into one box. Some will know every little difference, whereas others would remain totally oblivious

Some do know a little bit more, very few know a lot more.
I’ve dealt with many many passengers, and the very large majority are just on a train. I’ve been asked “is this first class?” on a TFW 158.
Of course people are capable of noticing their surroundings and will notice a train seeming modern if they usually get on old stock.
In my experience, easily over 90% of people’s interest ends right there.

Also, sometimes, the people who think they know more, really don’t and have tried to argue with me over something totally wrong.
Stopped at a passing loop on the Cambrian ‘Tallerddig’ for 15 mins to wait for a delayed train just to be told by some bloke who says he’s travels all the time on this line, that trains never stop here so what’s going, tried to explain that trains stop here all the time, literally called me a fool because they don’t and somebody doesn’t know how to time trains properly.

Anyway I digress as this is going OT.

 

[northwichcat]

The 197 I was on last night gave a fairly rough ride between Crewe and Chester. The conductor was doing a ticket check and she stood still next to some unoccupied seats for a bit while it was shaking quite a lot. It was the first time I'd ridden on one and it's been a long time since I've travelled on that line.

I mean it’s hard to make Joe Public fit into one box. Some will know every little difference, whereas others would remain totally oblivious

Indeed. Someone who works in art or design will probably notice if the grab handles are painted a different shade of red on some trains to others. While a lot of regular passengers would probably notice if the train they boarded had bright yellow seats but then if you ask them what colour the seats normally are, they may not be sure.

 

[Rhydgaled]

You beat me to it LowLevel! 158’s are nice but they’re very outdated now.
I absolutely can not wait to have properly air conditioned trains on the Cambrian.

Not sure I would call them outdated but I agree that the class 158s do often fall short of the ideal as far as air conditioning is concerned. It is a massive shame that there isn't anything which can provide a good service year-round on the Cambrian - the 158s are not up to the job on hot days and the 197s are not up to the job at any time.

They’ll be a good addition on the coastline, with its low line speed I don’t think the rougher ride will be so noticeable. Despite many people saying they’re not suitable for the Cambrian due it being a ‘long distance’ route, the coast line has about 25 stops and does not have long between any of them. Often just in the range of 1-5 minutes between.

Their better acceleration and braking will help them keep time during summer when stopping at all the request stops.
The wide 1/3 2/3 doors will again help keep dwell times down at stations and swallow the large volumes of passengers that travel, Particularly the 10 minute stretch between Talybont and Barmouth which is where most of the overcrowding happens.

Admittedly you have raised a few valid points there where the 197s would have some advantages if they were to be limited to Dovey Junction - Pwllheli (Aberystwyth - Birmingham is undoubtedly a long-distance semi-express service). But even that is over two hours; a very long time to be sat on a rock-hard seat like the Fainsa Sophias and (unlike something like the WCML) there's no fast service for the longer-distance pax to use instead. It also ignores the fact that the line is very scenic and the TfW 158s (with their 15 window-aligned table bays) are FAR better for those who want to admire the view.

There’s a huge difference between knowing and caring: in this case they didn’t know that the train didn’t have bars, but they clearly cared, and perhaps this is something to learn from - maybe we should get rid of the window stripes?

I agree; good point. When the 158s started coming back from their Arriva/WAG 'Ocean Blue' refurbishment I overheard some fellow passengers admiring their nice new train. I think this was another example of 'normals' caring but not knowing - they noticed that their train was different from what they were used to, and their first impressions seemed to be good, but they didn't know it was actually a recently-refurbished train rather than a brand-new one.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It also ignores the fact that the line is very scenic and the TfW 158s (with their 15 window-aligned table bays) are FAR better for those who want to admire the view.

It's a working railway, not the Bernina Express tourist train. There's far more important considerations to be had than what's best for "those who want to admire the view."

 

[sd0733]

But even that is over two hours; a very long time to be sat on a rock-hard seat like the Fainsa Sophias

The seats on 197s really aren't rock Hard or uncomfortable. There's flaws, but the seats aren't really one of them.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The seats on 197s really aren't rock Hard or uncomfortable. There's flaws, but the seats aren't really one of them.

Agreed. It's a subjective matter, but really there's nothing about them that would make them a poor replacement on the 158s' seats.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Not sure I would call them outdated but I agree that the class 158s do often fall short of the ideal as far as air conditioning is concerned.

They are well liked by many, have been (and still are) incredible units but they are outdated in many ways. The AC is just virtually non-existent once the weather warms up.

197s are not up to the job at any time.

An interesting take to say that they’ve not worked any Cambrian or Birmingham services yet. I’ve travelled on them (and trained on them) quite a lot at this point, and I think they’re decent (definitely have some issues, but overall decent) and I look forward to them working the Cambrian, from a drivers point of view and a passenger point of view. Conductors on the Cambrian also seem to be looking forward to their arrival.

dmittedly you have raised a few valid points there where the 197s would have some advantages if they were to be limited to Dovey Junction - Pwllheli (Aberystwyth - Birmingham is undoubtedly a long-distance semi-express service). But even that is over two hours; a very long time to be sat on a rock-hard seat like the Fainsa Sophias and (unlike something like the WCML) there's no fast service for the longer-distance pax to use instead. It also ignores the fact that the line is very scenic and the TfW 158s (with their 15 window-aligned table bays) are FAR better for those who want to admire the view

The seats on 197s really aren't rock Hard or uncomfortable. There's flaws, but the seats aren't really one of them.

Seats are certainly subjective but I’m with SD here.
The reduction in table seats a definite downside, hopefully negated by the increase in number of coaches being used. TFW CEO told me that they’re looking at running more 4 car services on the coast during the summer once 197’s are in service.

It's a working railway, not the Bernina Express tourist train. There's far more important considerations to be had than what's best for "those who want to admire the view."

Totally get your point, but the Cambrian coast very much is a tourist train service, even during winter with many ‘WAGS’ (free travel with bus pass) just using it for a trip to Pwllheli and back to look at the sites.
The reduction in table bays is a very valid point for any non-commuter line they work.

 

[Cambrian359]

It's a working railway, not the Bernina Express tourist train. There's far more important considerations to be had than what's best for "those who want to admire the view."

For a line like the Cambrian coast a good view should absolutely be taken into consideration. After all the extra trade the views generate year round must surely help contribute to keeping it going. I’ve yet to go on a 197 so can’t personally comment on it’s suitability in terms of window views but the ocean view attached was taken from a 158 window.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's a working railway, not the Bernina Express tourist train. There's far more important considerations to be had than what's best for "those who want to admire the view."

I would say there are many views around the country and even just mundane ones are something. It depends of course if a passenger just wants to have their head in a book/laptop/iPad etc. But for the rest of us there are even station names to look out for through the window !. I sometimes wonder if windows have lost their meaning for some designers ?. The 197s are replacing 158s which had a very good layout if windows are an important consideration.

 

[The_Train]

It's a working railway, not the Bernina Express tourist train. There's far more important considerations to be had than what's best for "those who want to admire the view."

Might as well just forget windows altogether then

 

[childwallblues]

I boarded the 0858 Liverpool South Parkway to Chester (197108) tobay. At each station call the announcement please move forward to exit the train was announced. The unit was failes on arrival at Chester and e return to Liverpool at 0943 was cancelled. 197004 took its place on the 1143.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

I boarded the 0858 Liverpool South Parkway to Chester (197108) tobay. At each station call the announcement please move forward to exit the train was announced. The unit was failes on arrival at Chester and e return to Liverpool at 0943 was cancelled. 197004 took its place on the 1143.

I was on that on the prior service to Lime St. It started as we approached Lime St but hadn’t done it at Runcorn or South Parkway.

 

[Sheridan]

I boarded the 0858 Liverpool South Parkway to Chester (197108) tobay. At each station call the announcement please move forward to exit the train was announced. The unit was failes on arrival at Chester and e return to Liverpool at 0943 was cancelled. 197004 took its place on the 1143.

It appears 197108 was put on the 1016 from Chester to Cardiff - possibly something to do with the football in Cardiff?

 

[Western 52]

The 1040 Holyhead to Swansea was a 5 car today, also maybe because of the football in Cardiff. Formed of 197014 + 197106 it skipped the scheduled stop at Pyle. Probably 5 car 197s not set up to stop there yet, although the 5 car Mk4 sets can.

 

[Lurcheroo]

k out for through the window !. I sometimes wonder if windows have lost their meaning for some designers ?. The 197s are replacing 158s which had a very good layout if windows are an important consideration.

Some consideration has certainly been taken to try and keep seats lined up with windows on the 197’s, certainly better than on some other units.
I think having the 1/3 and 2/3 doors makes things a bit more difficult when your trying to keep an even amount of spacing with different usable lengths (between door sets and between door and end of unit being different sizes) and then windows chucked in the mix. Most seats on the 197’s do pretty well for window alignment in my experience, although there is one row that’s just a pillar haha! Although I can think of a row on the 158’s that’s basically just looking at a pillar too.

 

[Caaardiff]

Has anyone actually properly assessed the seat alignment and come up with possible reasons why they are how they are?
Surely moving seats/tables to align with the windows would either lead to less legroom or more legroom depending on how they need aligning, and with that either comes more seats with less legroom or less seats with more legroom and a view?

 

[Western 52]

The seats also have to align with the reservation displays, although they are not being used on the 197s yet.

 

[Devonman2014]

197125 is out on test today arriving from Holyhead at Crewe on the below working

Realtime Trains | 3Q71 1120 Holyhead to Crewe | 27/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 3Q71 1120 departure from Holyhead to Crewe on 27/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

All seats and tables are still covered in plastic protection.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Some consideration has certainly been taken to try and keep seats lined up with windows on the 197’s, certainly better than on some other units.
I think having the 1/3 and 2/3 doors makes things a bit more difficult when your trying to keep an even amount of spacing with different usable lengths (between door sets and between door and end of unit being different sizes) and then windows chucked in the mix. Most seats on the 197’s do pretty well for window alignment in my experience, although there is one row that’s just a pillar haha! Although I can think of a row on the 158’s that’s basically just looking at a pillar too.

That is a good point about the 1/3 + 2/3 door positions. I notice on many units there is no window where an opening door would overlap. So that immediately makes a challenge. Of course one solution would be a version of the 197 with end doors for more scenic routes but I don't think we should expect that to happen.

Has anyone actually properly assessed the seat alignment and come up with possible reasons why they are how they are?
Surely moving seats/tables to align with the windows would either lead to less legroom or more legroom depending on how they need aligning, and with that either comes more seats with less legroom or less seats with more legroom and a view?

Bit of an explanation - it used to be easier. Back in the "good old days" second class coaches had one more BUT shorter length windows than the first class coaches because second class got less leg room (and no reclining). Plus there was generally no airline seating just all four seats facing across a table/window. So coaches were designed to fit around the required seat spacing. That feature survived into the Mark 3 coaches. I suppose if there were national standards for seat spacing and layout then perhaps railway coaches might be designed to fit. But we have more flexibility as to what the TOCs require these days. We also have a need to cram as many seats in as we can.

Any further discussion on seating is probably best done in a separate thread.

For now the 197s are what they are and there will always be things that have to be a compromise, its unavoidable.

 

[BillStampy]

RTT current has 1V93 allocated as 9 coaches (3x 197/1)
I'm sure there'll be plenty of "due to a short platform" announcements on there!

Realtime Trains | 1V93 0631 Holyhead to Cardiff Central | 30/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 1V93 0631 departure from Holyhead to Cardiff Central on 30/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Sheridan]

It also had 115 and 101 both on 1V91. Can only imagine the two were swapped around overnight but the original allocations didn’t disappear from RTT for some reason. So 1V91 will be a six-car from Chester, I should think.