CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[WAB]

There are also a lot of features that can be utilised on the PIS system which arnt yet taken advantage of or fully understood. If a train was delayed and there was a reason published in the control log, the PIS screens onboard used to update to say "This train has been delayed due to X reason". A great idea in theory, but it would also show as delayed if say a Cardiff to Holyhead service was significantly delayed in the south, and restarted right time with a new unit at Chester, it would also show the delay message even on time. Another example is say a service was cancelled between Manchester Piccadilly and the Airport, and restarting it's return journey at Piccadilly, it would show "This train has been cancelled due to X reason", even though the cancelled part was before the start of the service and didn't affect the rest of the journey so it just caused confusion.

I presume this is because the restarted train has a different headcode - a Z, but the original head code is put into the PIS?

 

[Jez]

I travelled on 197019 yesterday, which appeared to have had an upgrade to it's Passenger Information System. The display was showing inside and outside temperature and current speed among other things I haven't seen before. Unfortunately text had been changed to pale green on white background which was not very legible. The toilet indicator now marked as"PRM" which I think will be meaningless for most people. The toilet/ carriage indicator still uses the oversimplified rectangles with 'you are here' to represent carriages - that really does need upgrading. Took me multiple trips before I worked out what it was trying to show.

Thats very interesting. I will find the current speed particularly interesting. Especially seeing if they can get to 100mph at Pyle.

The average passenger wouldn't know what PRM means as you say.

.

110 is sitting on Chester depot.

Any idea what is wrong with 110 (if its possibly to say on a public forum of course)

Also does anyone know which units have been out of service for quite some time from the 2 cars (not ERTMS ones as already posted)

64 have been in service and 67 have been accepted for service.

Hopefully it wont be long before the 3 others accepted will appear in service.

 

[WirralLine]

I presume this is because the restarted train has a different headcode - a Z, but the original head code is put into the PIS?

It depends how quickly it updates, sometimes the T or Z headcode is updated quickly and works, other times you have to use the original headcode.

Other realtime updates are quite useful too, say a service is running late and control decide to run the train fast to say Llandudno junction from Chester, it's sent out to the unit and the PIS updates itself to remove the other stops. Same for terminating short they can remotely update the headcode to now terminate at say Bangor instead of Holyhead and the onboard PIS will reflect this. Quite clever.

If you have a look through the PIS audio files (I believe available from the TFW website for download), they have a huge selection of not currently utilised announcements too such as reasons for delay, terminating short, cancellations. They've also got Blackpool North on there for some reason, presumably they just cloned whatever was in the 175 database as they used to go there.

 

[Jez]

It depends how quickly it updates, sometimes the T or Z headcode is updated quickly and works, other times you have to use the original headcode.

Other realtime updates are quite useful too, say a service is running late and control decide to run the train fast to say Llandudno junction from Chester, it's sent out to the unit and the PIS updates itself to remove the other stops. Same for terminating short they can remotely update the headcode to now terminate at say Bangor instead of Holyhead and the onboard PIS will reflect this. Quite clever.

I noticed on Monday the PIS said the train was terminating at Crewe when originally it was Manchester Piccadilly. It seemed to update without any issues.

Unsure how it works with request stops however, on a Sprinter it usually only lists the non request stops. I did go on a 197 to Tenby last Summer and im sure it just stopped at all request stops anyway and just announced them on the PIS as if it was a regular stop.

 

[Anonymous10]

I noticed on Monday the PIS said the train was terminating at Crewe when originally it was Manchester Piccadilly. It seemed to update without any issues.

Unsure how it works with request stops however, on a Sprinter it usually only lists the non request stops. I did go on a 197 to Tenby last Summer and im sure it just stopped at all request stops anyway and just announced them on the PIS as if it was a regular stop.

197s for request stops announce it and say request stop only, similarly displayed on screens.

 

[sd0733]

Also does anyone know which units have been out of service for quite some time from the 2 cars (not ERTMS ones as already posted)


Hopefully it wont be long before the 3 others accepted will appear in service.

Only 004 which has been out of use since early April.

Once they do enter service its likely to just send a classmate for a holiday in Holyhead so unlikely to see any uplift in available units. There's still 50 diagrams in the New timetable so no extras are required over now.

 

[WirralLine]

For the request stops they announce them as normal like a normal station, the next station is x, then we are now approaching x. If the train doesn't stop it just updates to the next stop.

On the old stock with TrainFX it only lists the non request stops, GPS means it shouldn't announce anything on arrival at them, but the actual command for "We are now at Y" comes from door release, so sometimes if GPS isn't working and you stop at say Prees, you'll release the doors and it'll announce we are now at Wem.

 

[Lewisham2221]

For the request stops they announce them as normal like a normal station, the next station is x, then we are now approaching x. If the train doesn't stop it just updates to the next stop.

On the old stock with TrainFX it only lists the non request stops, GPS means it shouldn't announce anything on arrival at them, but the actual command for "We are now at Y" comes from door release, so sometimes if GPS isn't working and you stop at say Prees, you'll release the doors and it'll announce we are now at Wem.

However, on some of the 15x stock, it will announce "The next stop is Wem, if you require Prees, please alert the conductor" or very similar, whereas some will ignore request stops completely

 

[VicH]

There seems to have been a couple of moves of accepted but not in service ERTMS 197s. Current status looks to be:

197003- Stored at Holyhead since March 5th
197022- Stored at Holyhead since 28th April
197024- Moved from long term store at Holyhead today, now at Chester
197027- Stored at Holyhead since February
197028- In service
197029- In service
197030- Stored at Holyhead since February
197031- Stored at Holyhead since February
197033- Stored at Holyhead since February
197034- Stored at Holyhead since yesterday
197035- In service

Not yet accepted
197023/025/026/032/036/037/038/039/040/041

197034 was in service on Sat 3rd, noted at Crewe on a Manchester-Cardiff service

 

[Jez]

Only 004 which has been out of use since early April.

Once they do enter service its likely to just send a classmate for a holiday in Holyhead so unlikely to see any uplift in available units. There's still 50 diagrams in the New timetable so no extras are required over now.

Just as well they have the ERMTS 197s as 50 diagrams out of 56 units (53 with 3 out of service long term) would be tight. As it is they are just about holding their own to cover all 50 diagrams.

For the request stops they announce them as normal like a normal station, the next station is x, then we are now approaching x. If the train doesn't stop it just updates to the next stop.

On the old stock with TrainFX it only lists the non request stops, GPS means it shouldn't announce anything on arrival at them, but the actual command for "We are now at Y" comes from door release, so sometimes if GPS isn't working and you stop at say Prees, you'll release the doors and it'll announce we are now at Wem.

Actually now I think about it, a year ago i did a journey on the Conwy Valley so ive experienced request stops on that line on a 197 as well as Pembroke.

I noticed on the 175 they used to miss out the request stop - for example on a service to Milford it would say Whitland, Haverfordwest and Milford Haven were the stops west of Carmarthen, no mention of the requests. Im glad they are included on the 197s as it leads to less confusion. On the HOWL on a 150 recently it said the next stop was Pantyffynnon as we left Llanelli!

 

[Rhydgaled]

I noticed on the 175 they used to miss out the request stop - for example on a service to Milford it would say Whitland, Haverfordwest and Milford Haven were the stops west of Carmarthen, no mention of the requests.

Yes the 175s would do that on departure from Carmarthen (since Whitland is the first stop after Carmarthen and is not a request stop). However, if I recall correctly, they would list any request stops before the next main stop. For example, on leaving Pembrey & Burry Port it would say something like "we will be calling at the following principle stations; Carmarthen, Whitland, Haverfordwest and Milford Haven; Kidwelly and Ferryside stops are only made on request". It always annoyed me that the request stops were listed out of position and that request stops later in the journey (Clunderwen, Clarbeston Road and Johnston in that case) were not mentioned at all.

 

[158822]

In my experience, on 150s and 153s the request stops would not be acknowledged at all. Whereas on 158s the announcer would say something like “The next stop is Harlech, thank you. The next stop is Harlech. If you wish to alight at Llandecwyn, Talsarnau, or Tygwyn please ensure you tell the conductor”

 

[Jacob Porrett]

197026 at Crewe depot at the moment. I cleaned it today.

 

[sd0733]

197034 was in service on Sat 3rd, noted at Crewe on a Manchester-Cardiff service

Yes it was in service until early this week, essentially it looks like 197035 has replaced it in the service pool.

In my experience, on 150s and 153s the request stops would not be acknowledged at all. Whereas on 158s the announcer would say something like “The next stop is Harlech, thank you. The next stop is Harlech. If you wish to alight at Llandecwyn, Talsarnau, or Tygwyn please ensure you tell the conductor”

It depends a lot on the specific code that's given to crew to input into the PIS system.
Some codes didn't make any mention of requests whereas some of the (i think newer) codes do say like as you say about telling the conductor. But that's down to the code not the traction, if the same code was input into any 15x unit the same should be displayed and announced.

 

[AJDesiro]

I travelled on 197019 yesterday, which appeared to have had an upgrade to it's Passenger Information System. The display was showing inside and outside temperature and current speed among other things I haven't seen before. Unfortunately text had been changed to pale green on white background which was not very legible. The toilet indicator now marked as"PRM" which I think will be meaningless for most people. The toilet/ carriage indicator still uses the oversimplified rectangles with 'you are here' to represent carriages - that really does need upgrading. Took me multiple trips before I worked out what it was trying to show.

That’s the test/maintenance screen, the 196s have it as well, although I’ve not seen it in a good 2 years on those. It’s not intended for trains in passenger service.

(Images show the aforementioned displays on the 196s)

 

[pokemonsuper9]

That’s the test/maintenance screen, the 196s have it as well, although I’ve not seen it in a good 2 years on those. It’s not intended for trains in passenger service.

(Images show the aforementioned displays on the 196s)

I do love the speedometer, nice bit of fun.
But yes that colour is rather low contrast.

 

[tfw756rider]

​

(This video by Andrew Macfetters includes footage of boarding and travelling on a 197)

At 5:02, it looks like there was a little bit of damage on this door of 197017's DMS vehicle, 133017 (the left one of this pair, in-between the "door out of use" light and the "open" button), on the 22/4/25. This pair of doors being the rear-right pair of doors with the DMS behind the DMSL, or the front-left pair of doors with the DMS in front of the DMSL.

Does anyone know if this has since been repaired, or if it's still there (I'm typing this on the 10/5/25)? Or at least if this sort of minor damage is typically repaired as part of "maintaining" the units (not "normal" maintenance obviously).

 

[Philip Roberts]

I know the air con after has a bad reputation but I was on 197119 earlier today. It was packed (standing room only) when I got on, on a really hot day and it was really cool inside

 

[40029 Saxonia]

Thanks.
Note to self to check RTT tonight - incase it was a typo and gets corrected.

197035 seen at Llandudno Jn today (yesterday) so definitely in service

 

[87electric]

197024 was in service yesterday and also out today.

 

[tfw756rider]

197024 was in service yesterday and also out today.

Thanks @87electric

197024 is the 9th ETCS-fitted 197 to have entered service @Peter Sarf.

This now means that 65 (of 77) 197s have been in service.

39 (of 51) 2-car 197s have been in service:
All 30 non-ETCS 2-cars (197001-002, 197004-021, 197042-051)
9 (of 21) ETCS-fitted 2-cars (197003, 197024, 197028-031, 197033-035)

All 26 3-car 197s have been in service:
All 12 188-seat 3-cars (197101-112)
All 14 174-seat 3-cars (197113-126)

==============================

The number of 197s still to enter service is down to 12, all ETCS-fitted 2-cars:
197022-023, 197025-027, 197032, 197036-041

==============================

The overall number of new Transport for Wales (TfW) trains that have been in service is now up to 94 (of 148):

39 (of 51) 197/0s
All 26 197/1s
All 11 231s
1 (of 7) 756/0
All 17 756/1s

This leaves 54 new TfW trains still to enter service:

12 197/0s
36 398s
6 756/0s

 

[WirralLine]

I can't help but feel there still arnt quite enough 197s (ignoring the ERTMS ones as theyre effectively 158 replacements). I know up North they have a 197 covering 1 Bidston diagram for now until it becomes a 230.

I'm unfamiliar with the south - what are 197s covering down there which is only temporary and how many 197s will this free up when all future fleets are up and running? Whilst capacity has greatly improved on Manchester - South Wales services we are still seeing rammed 2 cars regularly on Holyhead-Cardiff and Llandudno-Manchester and seemingly no extra units to strengthen these. This is without factoring in planned future extensions to Liverpool services.

 

[craigybagel]

I'm unfamiliar with the south - what are 197s covering down there which is only temporary and how many 197s will this free up when all future fleets are up and running? Whilst capacity has greatly improved on Manchester - South Wales services we are still seeing rammed 2 cars regularly on Holyhead-Cardiff and Llandudno-Manchester and seemingly no extra units to strengthen these. This is without factoring in planned future extensions to Liverpool services.

Most Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham services are currently 197s which should all be 231s eventually.

 

[Cambrian359]

I can't help but feel there still arnt quite enough 197s (ignoring the ERTMS ones as theyre effectively 158 replacements). I know up North they have a 197 covering 1 Bidston diagram for now until it becomes a 230.

I'm unfamiliar with the south - what are 197s covering down there which is only temporary and how many 197s will this free up when all future fleets are up and running? Whilst capacity has greatly improved on Manchester - South Wales services we are still seeing rammed 2 cars regularly on Holyhead-Cardiff and Llandudno-Manchester and seemingly no extra units to strengthen these. This is without factoring in planned future extensions to Liverpool services.

They are also covering the 12 class 170s that were originally destined for west wales once all new fleets were in place but have now left TFW.

 

[43096]

They are also covering the 12 class 170s that were originally destined for west wales once all new fleets were in place but have now left TFW.

The 170s were largely replaced by additional Mark 4 sets and retention of the 153s.

 

[Rhydgaled]

They are also covering the 12 class 170s that were originally destined for west wales once all new fleets were in place but have now left TFW.

TfW are now retaining some 153s (all ex-ATW units were originally intended to be replaced) and have obtained more mark 4 sets* than originally planned. I think those changes are meant to cover for the 170s, although it probably means 2-car 197s instead of 3-car 170s for some routes.

*on paper at least, each mark 4 set on a Manchester diagram releases two 197s since almost all the Manchester workings are supposed to be at least 4 coaches.

 

[Anonymous10]

They are also covering the 12 class 170s that were originally destined for west wales once all new fleets were in place but have now left TFW.

They were replaced by the extra mk4 sets

 

[Cambrian359]

They were replaced by the extra mk4 sets

Which are often replaced by…197s

 

[Philip Roberts]

There's supposed to be six MkIV services a day but there's only five at the most at the moment, which takes out at least another 197 to cover for it

 

[55009AC]

I was in Holyhead last Sunday (4th), and I can confirm units 022/024/003 and 030 were all visible - three of which were in the storage sidings, and one of which was in the station sidings. There were eight units in the storage sidings and from this forum I think three others I couldn't read off were 027/031 and 033. I noticed that 035 went into service during the week - was this one of the other two I couldn't see, and does anyone know what the other one was? Thanks for any help.