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CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

Jez

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Do 158s still have a diagram to get them to and from South Wales? Also surely by now Carmarthen depot must really be struggling to keep everyone signing 158s?
I think it takes 6 months to lose competency? If they are doing Pembroke Dock they must be as they only sign the Pembroke Dock Branch. It wasn't that long ago there was a Sunday diagram to West Wales
 
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Caaardiff

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There are no more 158 diagrams in the South, aside from the when there's a big Cambrian block meaning 158's can be relocated.
 

craigybagel

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I think it takes 6 months to lose competency? If they are doing Pembroke Dock they must be as they only sign the Pembroke Dock Branch. It wasn't that long ago there was a Sunday diagram to West Wales

There was a 158 on a Fishguard service this week!
I'd be surprised if there aren't crews at Carmarthen who have already lost competency, or never signed 158s to begin with. It's the same at the North depots that still officially sign 150s. Most can still work them, but occasionally an ad-hoc swap of traincrew might be required on the day if one turns up unexpected.
 

Bikeman78

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I think it takes 6 months to lose competency? If they are doing Pembroke Dock they must be as they only sign the Pembroke Dock Branch. It wasn't that long ago there was a Sunday diagram to West Wales
I think the Sunday west Wales turn finished in December 2024. So Carmarthen 158 knowledge is likely to tail off over the next few months. Cardiff drivers will have to retain class 158 knowledge until they finish because they go to Canton for tyre turning and various other heavy maintenance. I think that they work Birmingham to Holyhead trains between Shrewsbury and Chester and vice versa, so they still get to work 158s frequently.

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I'd be surprised if there aren't crews at Carmarthen who have already lost competency, or never signed 158s to begin with. It's the same at the North depots that still officially sign 150s. Most can still work them, but occasionally an ad-hoc swap of traincrew might be required on the day if one turns up unexpected.
Hopefully class 197s will be signed off for the Heart of Wales before the class 150s retire. Otherwise there will be no plan B when there is a shortage of class 153s.
 
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craigybagel

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Cardiff drivers will have to retain class 158 knowledge until they finish because they go to Canton for tyre turning and various other heavy maintenance. I think that they work Birmingham to Holyhead trains between Shrewsbury and Chester and vice versa, so they still get to work 158s frequently.

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They do indeed have some work on those services - although not all links at Cardiff sign that route so only some drivers will be covered.
Hopefully class 197s will be signed off for the Heart of Wales before the class 150s retire. Otherwise there will be no plan B when there is a shortage of class 153s.
I think the number of 153s being kept should allow enough spares to cover for that, and you also have the option of switching out the Crewe - Shrewsbury local for a 197 if needs be. I would be surprised if they don't get cleared for it eventually, but I doubt there's any rush for it.
 

Topological

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They do indeed have some work on those services - although not all links at Cardiff sign that route so only some drivers will be covered.

I think the number of 153s being kept should allow enough spares to cover for that, and you also have the option of switching out the Crewe - Shrewsbury local for a 197 if needs be. I would be surprised if they don't get cleared for it eventually, but I doubt there's any rush for it.
Presumably, if there was a multiple day block between Bridgend and Swansea then it would focus minds to get the HoW cleared for 197s (even if just for ECS to get to Chester)
 

Jez

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They do indeed have some work on those services - although not all links at Cardiff sign that route so only some drivers will be covered.

I think the number of 153s being kept should allow enough spares to cover for that, and you also have the option of switching out the Crewe - Shrewsbury local for a 197 if needs be. I would be surprised if they don't get cleared for it eventually, but I doubt there's any rush for it.
I agree. The amount of times a 175 was required to work the HOWL over 15 years you could count on one hand so 197s unlikely to be needed until the day comes when the 153s finally go. So 197s being cleared probably isnt top priority at the moment. Far easier to switch the Crewe stopper to a 197 as you say.

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I'd be surprised if there aren't crews at Carmarthen who have already lost competency, or never signed 158s to begin with. It's the same at the North depots that still officially sign 150s. Most can still work them, but occasionally an ad-hoc swap of traincrew might be required on the day if one turns up unexpected.
They have been few and far between in West Wales even before they stopped having booked workings. There was an all day Manchester-Milford Saturday diagram starting with 0630 from Manchester plus the Sunday diagrams but even these were often subbed for a 150! It must be a pain when one gets swapped last minute for West Wales if some train crew dont sign them.

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Presumably, if there was a multiple day block between Bridgend and Swansea then it would focus minds to get the HoW cleared for 197s (even if just for ECS to get to Chester)
Usually that happens over multiple weekends or just on Sundays so they could just keep what was West of Swansea for the entire weekend. I cant remember many week long blocks between Bridgend and Swansea. I know they did a long term block between Swansea-Llanelli a while back (to double the track at Gowerton) and they used the District line (in service) to get the 175s between West Wales and Cardiff/Chester, missing out Neath and Swansea on the Manchester-West Wales but the GWR and Swanline picked up them.
 
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Anonymous10

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I'd be surprised if there aren't crews at Carmarthen who have already lost competency, or never signed 158s to begin with. It's the same at the North depots that still officially sign 150s. Most can still work them, but occasionally an ad-hoc swap of traincrew might be required on the day if one turns up unexpected.
Pretty sure pembroke dock and Fishguard are only staffed by Carmarthen crews.
 

Topological

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I agree. The amount of times a 175 was required to work the HOWL over 15 years you could count on one hand so 197s unlikely to be needed until the day comes when the 153s finally go. So 197s being cleared probably isnt top priority at the moment. Far easier to switch the Crewe stopper to a 197 as you say.

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They have been few and far between in West Wales even before they stopped having booked workings. There was an all day Manchester-Milford Saturday diagram starting with 0630 from Manchester plus the Sunday diagrams but even these were often subbed for a 150! It must be a pain when one gets swapped last minute for West Wales if some train crew dont sign them.

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Usually that happens over multiple weekends or just on Sundays so they could just keep what was West of Swansea for the entire weekend. I cant remember many week long blocks between Bridgend and Swansea. I know they did a long term block between Swansea-Llanelli a while back (to double the track at Gowerton) and they used the District line (in service) to get the 175s between West Wales and Cardiff/Chester, missing out Neath and Swansea on the Manchester-West Wales but the GWR and Swanline picked up them.
I was thinking what would happen if one day they decide to electrify. Though no doubt it would be a slow weekend by weekend, rather than big bang blockade. There have been week long blocks on the London services though, and obviously Severn Tunnel is done as a single long block. Still puts 197s via the HoWL as a low priority to sort out.

The District Line does provide cover for some of the route, even if just to get ECS in and out. I think it is just Britton Ferry to Bridgend that has no cover (except via HoWL)
 

craigybagel

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Presumably, if there was a multiple day block between Bridgend and Swansea then it would focus minds to get the HoW cleared for 197s (even if just for ECS to get to Chester)
Possibly. But there are plenty of alternatives before you get to that kind of desperation. Although I do hope it does happen sometime if only so we can experience doing 60mph on jointed track in a 197......
They have been few and far between in West Wales even before they stopped having booked workings. There was an all day Manchester-Milford Saturday diagram starting with 0630 from Manchester plus the Sunday diagrams but even these were often subbed for a 150! It must be a pain when one gets swapped last minute for West Wales if some train crew dont sign them.

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Indeed. I've long since suspected that part of the reasoning for those trips was to keep Carmarthen competent on 158s. That's one benefit of the 197s; outside of the Valleys, every driver and guard at TfW will sign them. No more worries about keeping competent.
Pretty sure pembroke dock and Fishguard are only staffed by Carmarthen crews.
That is correct. But Carmarthen is a surprisingly large depot, and 158 work so few and far between out that way it's certainly possible crews will have lost competency.
 

Anonymous10

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Possibly. But there are plenty of alternatives before you get to that kind of desperation. Although I do hope it does happen sometime if only so we can experience doing 60mph on jointed track in a 197......

Indeed. I've long since suspected that part of the reasoning for those trips was to keep Carmarthen competent on 158s. That's one benefit of the 197s; outside of the Valleys, every driver and guard at TfW will sign them. No more worries about keeping competent.

That is correct. But Carmarthen is a surprisingly large depot, and 158 work so few and far between out that way it's certainly possible crews will have lost competency.
Yes I mean that some must still have it as the lines it worked will have been Carmarthen diagrams.
 

BenBracken

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Back to the topic of toilets again! I travelled on a 701 into London at the weekend. The toilet looked to be of an identical design to the 197 and seemed to have all the same components. Is it an off the shelf toilet that CAF and Alstom have used? There doesn’t seem to be any issues with the 701 and its toilets as far as I am aware so why would 197s have the issues?
 

Jez

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Yes I mean that some must still have it as the lines it worked will have been Carmarthen diagrams.
Yes some most certainly will as they have done Pembroke Dock recently which as you say is just Carmarthen.. Milford is signed by both Cardiff and Carmarthen but I wouldn't be surprised if there is more work for Carmarthen there as well.
 

Bikeman78

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I agree. The amount of times a 175 was required to work the HOWL over 15 years you could count on one hand so 197s unlikely to be needed until the day comes when the 153s finally go. So 197s being cleared probably isnt top priority at the moment. Far easier to switch the Crewe stopper to a 197 as you say.
My understanding is that there will be five diagrams for the six active travel pairs. In the past, there were usually 150s or 153s fairly close to Shrewsbury to substitute in the event of a failure. If one is stopped for anything other than routine exams, it will get rather tight.
 

animationmilo

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My understanding is that there will be five diagrams for the six active travel pairs. In the past, there were usually 150s or 153s fairly close to Shrewsbury to substitute in the event of a failure. If one is stopped for anything other than routine exams, it will get rather tight.
They should have another spare
153312 is spare but another one wouldn’t go a miss
 

Belperpete

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I have recently had a number of rides on 197s recently, between Shrewsbury-Birmingham, on the N. Wales coast and to Blaenau. The ride in all cases was atrocious. Travelling on a 158 or an Evero, and then changing onto a 197 made the difference especially stark. Every rail joint felt like a thump in the back. On my first ride it was so bad that I was going to mention it to the guard, had he/she ever appeared. I can see people deliberately choosing to travel on Avanti services rather than these back-breakers. TfW surely cannot think they are acceptable?!
 

158822

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Will the 153 diagram that runs between Cardiff and Swansea and forms the next days Heart of Wales service eventually be changed and go over to 197s? If not, does that mean Cardiff depot or some of Cardiff depot will keep signing 153s? And also don’t Cardiff drivers do a small amount of work on the Shrewsbury to Crewe service as well?
 

Jez

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Will the 153 diagram that runs between Cardiff and Swansea and forms the next days Heart of Wales service eventually be changed and go over to 197s? If not, does that mean Cardiff depot or some of Cardiff depot will keep signing 153s? And also don’t Cardiff drivers do a small amount of work on the Shrewsbury to Crewe service as well?
Eventually it will have to go over to a 197 as the plan long term is for Cardiff to stop 153's. I believe the plan is for maintenance to be done at Crewe hence keeping them on the Crewe local service long term. I assume a set or 2 will be stabled at Carmarthen and the others in the North.

Im not sure how they will get around Cardiff doing work on the Crewe Local as well as Chester working it to. Unless they ensure its only worked by Crewe train crew?


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

My understanding is that there will be five diagrams for the six active travel pairs. In the past, there were usually 150s or 153s fairly close to Shrewsbury to substitute in the event of a failure. If one is stopped for anything other than routine exams, it will get rather tight.
They can use the spare single car 153312 and run a service short formed or sub the Crewe local for a 197 if they are really stuck. But eventually it would be useful for the HOWL to have 197s cleared to run. I dont think a 197 has ever been down the HOWL ever, even for a test run? So clearing them for passenger service with all those request stops could take some time.

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I have recently had a number of rides on 197s recently, between Shrewsbury-Birmingham, on the N. Wales coast and to Blaenau. The ride in all cases was atrocious. Travelling on a 158 or an Evero, and then changing onto a 197 made the difference especially stark. Every rail joint felt like a thump in the back. On my first ride it was so bad that I was going to mention it to the guard, had he/she ever appeared. I can see people deliberately choosing to travel on Avanti services rather than these back-breakers. TfW surely cannot think they are acceptable?!
Never been on a 197 between Shrews-Birmingham. Ive also only been on the NW Coast once on a 197. The only places ive noticed the ride quality being very bad was on the Conwy Valley and between Llanelli and Pembrey. Otherwise I think the ride quality is fine. Overall I like the 197s and I personally prefer them to the 158/150/153s.
 
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Belperpete

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Never been on a 197 between Shrews-Birmingham. Ive also only been on the NW Coast once on a 197. The only places ive noticed the ride quality being very bad was on the Conwy Valley and between Llanelli and Pembrey. Otherwise I think the ride quality is fine. Overall I like the 197s and I personally prefer them to the 158/150/153s.
The ambience in a 197 is far superior to a 158, and if it weren't for the ride quality, I would much prefer the 197. But no way are you going to doze off in a 197 while your back is being pounded at every rail joint. I agree that they are especially bad on the Conwy Valley, but they are noticeably worse than 158s or Everos on the NW Coast. My last trip I spent the whole journey cursing that I hadn't caught the earlier Avanti train. I am dreading what they will be like on the Cambrian, even if that is a few years away. Unlike on the NW Coast, on the Cambrian we won't get any alternative.
 

sd0733

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The ambience in a 197 is far superior to a 158, and if it weren't for the ride quality, I would much prefer the 197. But no way are you going to doze off in a 197 while your back is being pounded at every rail joint. I agree that they are especially bad on the Conwy Valley, but they are noticeably worse than 158s or Everos on the NW Coast. My last trip I spent the whole journey cursing that I hadn't caught the earlier Avanti train. I am dreading what they will be like on the Cambrian, even if that is a few years away. Unlike on the NW Coast, on the Cambrian we won't get any alternative.
197s are fairly good on decent plain track. On jointed rail or poor quality track and over any point work etc though they are shocking to the point like you say where passengers can be quite alarmed.
It is a shame as the interiors are decent, and I've often wondered how many of the other underlying 197 troubles such as the toilets aren't helped by their components being rattled and shaken to bits constantly.
 

DelW

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My understanding is that there will be five diagrams for the six active travel pairs. In the past, there were usually 150s or 153s fairly close to Shrewsbury to substitute in the event of a failure. If one is stopped for anything other than routine exams, it will get rather tight.
Does that allow for the (fairly) recent promise to put the HoWL back up to five through trains per day? I haven't yet seen anything about how that timetable will work (assuming TfW will want to keep all crossings at Llandrindod as now?). Presumably the diagrams might have to change when that's worked out.
 

tfw756rider

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The ambience in a 197 is far superior to a 158
I like the 197s very much (despite their flaws), as I like the way they look, and the way they sound with their "172-style" engine/gearbox setup of MTU 1800 Series and 6-speed ZF, going up and down the gears (indeed, and I'm not sure if anyone else realises this, but when the 77th 197 enters service, it will also be the 200th 6-speed ZF Diesel Multiple Unit - 172/195/196/197 - to enter service in Britain).

I am however intrigued - what it is that you think makes the ambience in a 197 far superior to that in a 158? The air conditioning obviously works better, but what else? Just everything being newer / less used (even compared to a refurbished "Welsh" 158) or what?

I am dreading what they will be like on the Cambrian, even if that is a few years away.
I believe the latest estimate from Transport for Wales is that the ETCS-fitted 197s will enter service on the Cambrian in January to March 2026 at the earliest.
 

amahy

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I like the 197s very much (despite their flaws), as I like the way they look, and the way they sound with their "172-style" engine/gearbox setup of MTU 1800 Series and 6-speed ZF, going up and down the gears (indeed, and I'm not sure if anyone else realises this, but when the 77th 197 enters service, it will also be the 200th 6-speed ZF Diesel Multiple Unit - 172/195/196/197 - to enter service in Britain).

I am however intrigued - what it is that you think makes the ambience in a 197 far superior to that in a 158? The air conditioning obviously works better, but what else? Just everything being newer / less used (even compared to a refurbished "Welsh" 158) or what?


I believe the latest estimate from Transport for Wales is that the ETCS-fitted 197s will enter service on the Cambrian in January to March 2026 at the earliest.
When it works ... my success rate for functional air con on 197s is probably well below 50%!
 

158822

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Are new TfW drivers still being trained on 150s, 153s and 158s obviously apart from North Wales and Chester which no longer sign 150s and 153s? Unless Chester still sign 153s? Also, does anyone know when a 150 or 153 last ran up the North Wales coast ?
 

Welshguy1048

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@158822

Hi

The last video i have got on my YouTube channel of a 150 running up the coast is 30th December 2023.

The last video i have of a 153 was 18th May 2023.

Dave
 

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